Author Topic: Fallen angel or angels?  (Read 1839 times)

BlackStone

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Fallen angel or angels?
« on: February 12, 2011, 07:01:01 AM »
In christianity/judaism there seems to be the concept that 2/3's of the heavenly host of angels fell from grace with God and lost their wings when thrown out of paradise to join Satan on earth and in hell. However, in Islam there seems to be the concept that only the angel that became Satan fell from grace, lost its wings, and became the devil and leader of the jinn.

I'm trying to understand this nuance so please correct me if I'm mistaken...
We find consulations, we learn tricks with which we deceive ourselves, but the essential thing - the way - we do not find. Listen to the river...

Neh22

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Re: Fallen angel or angels?
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2011, 12:27:33 PM »
In christianity/judaism there seems to be the concept that 2/3's of the heavenly host of angels fell from grace with God and lost their wings when thrown out of paradise to join Satan on earth and in hell. However, in Islam there seems to be the concept that only the angel that became Satan fell from grace, lost its wings, and became the devil and leader of the jinn.

I'm trying to understand this nuance so please correct me if I'm mistaken...

Actually, according to Islam, Satan was never an angel - he is an entirely different being from angels. We believe that there are angels, who are made of light, obedient to God, yet they have no free will and therefore cannot disobey God. Jinni are beings made of fire, and have free will. Satan is a jinn and used to be pious and was at the same ranks of some angels. Humans also have free will. Therefore, according to Islam, it's not possible for angels to fall from grace.

mmkhan

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Re: Fallen angel or angels?
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2011, 03:15:52 PM »
Salaam,

Actually, according to Islam, Satan was never an angel - he is an entirely different being from angels. We believe that there are angels, who are made of light, obedient to God, yet they have no free will and therefore cannot disobey God. Jinni are beings made of fire, and have free will. Satan is a jinn and used to be pious and was at the same ranks of some angels. Humans also have free will. Therefore, according to Islam, it's not possible for angels to fall from grace.

Brother, can you please quote the references from AlQuraan about your understanding on this subject? I could not see that way. Please look at my understanding below:


18:50    وإذ قلنا للملئكة اسجدوا لءادم فسجدوا إلا إبليس كان من الجن ففسق عن أمر ربه أفتتخذونه وذريته أولياء من دوني وهم لكم عدو بئس للظلمين بدلا
18:50    And We said to the angels: Yield to Adam. So they all yielded except for Satan. He became the Jinn, he disobeyed the order of his Lord. Will you take him and his progeny as allies besides Me, while they are your enemy? Miserable for the transgressors is the substitute!

Only angels were asked to prostrate, then if Shaitaan was not an angel why he came in between and got punished? He was surely an angel, when he disobeyed Allah, he became Jinn.

I believe that Angels and Jinn are made of same substance. And Shaitaan was not holding any rank over others.

Angels that is "Malaaika" are the plural of "Malak" that may translate as "King", so Shaitaan was among the kings holding same position, but when disobeyed, he was degraded to the category of Jinn.


7:13    قال فاهبط منها فما يكون لك أن تتكبر فيها فاخرج إنك من الصغرين
7:13    He said: Descend from it, for it is not for you to be arrogant here; depart, you are degraded.

7:13 shows that he lost is position, but again, he was not of any high rank among them.


38:75    قال يإبليس ما منعك أن تسجد لما خلقت بيدي أستكبرت أم كنت من العالين
38:75    He said: O Iblees, what prevented you from yielding to what I have created by My hands? Are you too arrogant? Or are you one of those exalted?

This is how I understand this subject.


May Allah guide us all to His only path  :pr
Mohammed M. Khan
6:162    قل إن صلاتي ونسكي ومحياي ومماتي لله رب العلمين
6:162    Say: My contact prayer, and my rites, and my life, and my death, are all to Allah, Lord of the worlds.
 
3:51    إن الله ربي وربكم فاعبدوه هذا صرط مستقيم
3:51    Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so serve Him,

Jinn

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Re: Fallen angel or angels?
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2011, 07:22:50 PM »
Salaam,

Brother, can you please quote the references from AlQuraan about your understanding on this subject? I could not see that way. Please look at my understanding below:


18:50    وإذ قلنا للملئكة اسجدوا لءادم فسجدوا إلا إبليس كان من الجن ففسق عن أمر ربه أفتتخذونه وذريته أولياء من دوني وهم لكم عدو بئس للظلمين بدلا
18:50    And We said to the angels: Yield to Adam. So they all yielded except for Satan. He became the Jinn, he disobeyed the order of his Lord. Will you take him and his progeny as allies besides Me, while they are your enemy? Miserable for the transgressors is the substitute!

Only angels were asked to prostrate, then if Shaitaan was not an angel why he came in between and got punished? He was surely an angel, when he disobeyed Allah, he became Jinn.

I believe that Angels and Jinn are made of same substance. And Shaitaan was not holding any rank over others.

Angels that is "Malaaika" are the plural of "Malak" that may translate as "King", so Shaitaan was among the kings holding same position, but when disobeyed, he was degraded to the category of Jinn.


7:13    قال فاهبط منها فما يكون لك أن تتكبر فيها فاخرج إنك من الصغرين
7:13    He said: Descend from it, for it is not for you to be arrogant here; depart, you are degraded.

7:13 shows that he lost is position, but again, he was not of any high rank among them.


38:75    قال يإبليس ما منعك أن تسجد لما خلقت بيدي أستكبرت أم كنت من العالين
38:75    He said: O Iblees, what prevented you from yielding to what I have created by My hands? Are you too arrogant? Or are you one of those exalted?

This is how I understand this subject.


May Allah guide us all to His only path  :pr
Mohammed M. Khan



Peace,

I'm not going to try and flaunt any knowledge of Arabic, because I know very little, but I asked the same question several years ago.  I'll try to paraphrase the response.

Arabic has a rule called "tagleeb" which, simply put, says that if the Majority is addressed, the Minority is also addressed.  Iblis, being a Jinn, was the minority amongst an audience of Angels and was thus also commanded to prostrate.

In English, a similar situation would be a situation where I would address a group of my friends at a party and say "Hey guys! Come outside!"  Even though I used the word 'guys' it is nearly universally accepted in English speaking cultures that I am addressing the group as a whole.  This rule is different from tagleeb (because English is stupid like that) in the respect that even if there is a majority of women, "guys" still means everyone due to our history of gender inequalities and incompleteness of feminine words (for example, "Doctor" has no feminine counterpart).  Also, Angels are made from light and Jinn from fire, so they cannot be the same.

mmkhan

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Re: Fallen angel or angels?
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2011, 03:04:01 AM »
Salaam brother,

Arabic has a rule called "tagleeb" which, simply put, says that if the Majority is addressed, the Minority is also addressed.  Iblis, being a Jinn, was the minority amongst an audience of Angels and was thus also commanded to prostrate.

I thing we must understand and remember always that AlQuraan is not just the Arabic Language, but it is the book of guidance from our Creator, The Knower of all. So, I did not find any aayat supporting your claim, please put forward such aayat if you know.


Quote
Angels are made from light and Jinn from fire, so they cannot be the same.

I know aayaat about Jinn created from fire, but Angels made of light?  :hmm Can you please give me the reference from AlQuraan?


May Allah guide us all to His only path  :pr
Mohammed M. Khan
6:162    قل إن صلاتي ونسكي ومحياي ومماتي لله رب العلمين
6:162    Say: My contact prayer, and my rites, and my life, and my death, are all to Allah, Lord of the worlds.
 
3:51    إن الله ربي وربكم فاعبدوه هذا صرط مستقيم
3:51    Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so serve Him,

Jinn

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Re: Fallen angel or angels?
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2011, 06:27:10 AM »
Salaam brother,

I thing we must understand and remember always that AlQuraan is not just the Arabic Language, but it is the book of guidance from our Creator, The Knower of all. So, I did not find any aayat supporting your claim, please put forward such aayat if you know.


I know aayaat about Jinn created from fire, but Angels made of light?  :hmm Can you please give me the reference from AlQuraan?


May Allah guide us all to His only path  :pr
Mohammed M. Khan

Peace,

Satan is identified as a Jinn in 18:50

And [mention] when We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam," and they prostrated, except for Iblees. He was of the jinn and departed from the command of his Lord. Then will you take him and his descendants as allies other than Me while they are enemies to you? Wretched it is for the wrongdoers as an exchange.

We know from verses such as 66:6 that Angels do not disobey God, since they are literally unable to.

There is nothing in the Qur'an on the makeup of Angels - source of what they are created from is sadly only found in the hadith, which means I could indeed be wrong on my statement that Angels are created from light.

However, the Qur'an defines Jinn very clearly as being created from fire.  Their distinction from Angels is also quite strong.

mmkhan

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Re: Fallen angel or angels?
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2011, 04:03:00 PM »
Salaam Jinn,

Satan is identified as a Jinn in 18:50

And [mention] when We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam," and they prostrated, except for Iblees. He was of the jinn and departed from the command of his Lord. Then will you take him and his descendants as allies other than Me while they are enemies to you? Wretched it is for the wrongdoers as an exchange.

Satan was not mentioned in 18:50 but 'Iblees'

If you use 'WAS' for 'KAANA' in 18:50 instead of 'BECAME', you may find difficulty in translating the following aayaats.

2:34    وإذ قلنا للملئكة اسجدوا لءادم فسجدوا إلا إبليس أبى واستكبر وكان من الكفرين
2:34    And We said to the angels: Yield to Adam, so they yielded except for Satan, he refused and became arrogant, and became of the rejecters.

If you translate 'kaana' as 'was' then in 2:34 above it has to be translated as 'and was of the rejectors' that means there were already rejectors available.

2:97    قل من كان عدوا لجبريل فإنه نزله على قلبك بإذن الله مصدقا لما بين يديه وهدى وبشرى للمؤمنين
2:97    Say: Whoever become an enemy to Jibraeel, then know that he has sent it down into your heart with the permission of Allah, authenticating what is with him, and a guide and good news for the believers.

2:111    وقالوا لن يدخل الجنة إلا من كان هودا أو نصرى تلك أمانيهم قل هاتوا برهنكم إن كنتم صدقين
2:111    And they said: None shall enter the Paradise except those who become Hoodan or Nasaara; this is what they wish! Say: Bring forth your proof if you are truthful.

4:1    يأيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس وحدة وخلق منها زوجها وبث منهما رجالا كثيرا ونساء واتقوا الله الذي تساءلون به والأرحام إن الله كان عليكم رقيبا
4:1    O people, be aware of your Lord who has created you from one person and He created from it its mate and sent forth from it many men and many women; and be aware of Allah whom you ask about, and the relatives. Allah became Watcher over you.


'Kun', 'Yakoon' and 'Fayakoon' is all derivatives of 'Kaana' used in the following aayat.

3:47    قالت رب أنى يكون لي ولد ولم يمسسني بشر قال كذلك الله يخلق ما يشاء إذا قضى أمرا فإنما يقول له كن فيكون
3:47    She said: My Lord, how can there be a son for me when no human being has been with me? He said: It is thus that Allah creates what He wills, when He decrees a command, He merely says to it Be, and it becomes.


Quote
We know from verses such as 66:6 that Angels do not disobey God, since they are literally unable to.

Sorry, I disagree, that is not referring to all Angels.

66:6    يأيها الذين ءامنوا قوا أنفسكم وأهليكم نارا وقودها الناس والحجارة عليها ملئكة غلاظ شداد لا يعصون الله ما أمرهم ويفعلون ما يؤمرون
66:6    O you who believe, protect yourselves and your families from a Fire whose fuel is people and stones. Over which are angels stern and powerful who do not disobey Allah in what He commanded them; and they carry out what they are commanded to.

This is referring to only angels over the fire.


May Allah guide us all to His path  :pr
Mohammed M. Khan

6:162    قل إن صلاتي ونسكي ومحياي ومماتي لله رب العلمين
6:162    Say: My contact prayer, and my rites, and my life, and my death, are all to Allah, Lord of the worlds.
 
3:51    إن الله ربي وربكم فاعبدوه هذا صرط مستقيم
3:51    Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so serve Him,

freshmad

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Re: Fallen angel or angels?
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2011, 09:51:21 AM »
dude mmkhan you translations are not correct, if they were then the quran would be contradicting. because allah says angels can never disobey the commands of their lord. so if iblees was an angel he couldnt have not listened to allah.

mmkhan

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Re: Fallen angel or angels?
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2011, 11:46:25 AM »
dude mmkhan you translations are not correct, if they were then the quran would be contradicting. because allah says angels can never disobey the commands of their lord. so if iblees was an angel he couldnt have not listened to allah.

Evidence please.

Mohammed M. Khan
6:162    قل إن صلاتي ونسكي ومحياي ومماتي لله رب العلمين
6:162    Say: My contact prayer, and my rites, and my life, and my death, are all to Allah, Lord of the worlds.
 
3:51    إن الله ربي وربكم فاعبدوه هذا صرط مستقيم
3:51    Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so serve Him,

freshmad

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Re: Fallen angel or angels?
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2011, 12:28:51 PM »
Evidence please.

Mohammed M. Khan


For NONE are arrogant (before their Lord). They ALL fear their Lord, high above them, and they do ALL they are commanded. -- Sura 16:49-50

In the verse

    And behold, We said to the angels: "Bow down to Adam" and they bowed down. Not so Iblis: he refused and was haughty: He was of those who reject Faith. [Qur'ān 2:34]

the nature of Iblīs is not mentioned, i.e., whether he was an angel or someone else. But the verse

    Behold! We said to the angels, "Bow down to Adam": They bowed down except Iblis. He was one of the Jinns, and he broke the Command of his Lord. Will ye then take him and his progeny as protectors rather than Me? And they are enemies to you! Evil would be the exchange for the wrong-doers! [Qur'ān 18:50]

clarifies who Iblīs is. He was one of Jinn not angels as wrongly claimed by the Christian missionaries.

We have used the traditional method of Qur'ānic exegesis involving Context & Internal Relationships, i.e., al-Qur'ān yufassiru bacduhu bacdan (different parts of the Qur'ān explain each other). What is given in a general way in one place is discussed in detail in some other place in the Qur'ān. What is dealt with briefly at one place is expanded in some other place.

And Allah knows best!