Author Topic: Does 9:29 encourage us to fight Christians and Jews etc. unprovoked?  (Read 1311 times)

MesMorial

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"Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection."

9:29


I know al-Tawbah is about war and 9:5 is contextual, but 9:29 just appears too "in between" to connect it to the proclamation of 9:1 and the close of the Surah (according to Maududi the three discourses of al-Tawbah are chronologically back-to-front). It is inevitable that an opponent of the Qur'an-alone Muslims will ask us to explain this verse using nothing but Qur'an.

Salaam.

Wakas

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Re: Does 9:29 encourage us to fight Christians and Jews etc. unprovoked?
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2010, 05:41:39 PM »
It is contextual.

deen does not mean religion. It is closer to obligation/system.

And as for paying tax, it would either refer to those assured security under the deen, or those who opt out of participating in battles/warfare but still want security. At this time, it seems the latter, but I have not studied it in detail. I believe Asad mentions it in his notes. see www.quranix.net
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

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Mazhar

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Re: Does 9:29 encourage us to fight Christians and Jews etc. unprovoked?
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2010, 06:47:22 AM »
You people confront war, with those who do not believe in Allah, and nor believe in the Last Day; and nor they make that unlawful what Allah and His Messenger has declared unlawful and nor they acknowledge the Prescribed Truthful Code from those who were given the Book, until they pay the protection charges/tax compliantly while they are subdued/defeated. [9:29]

9:29


What should be the conduct with the People of the Book?

Many from amongst the People of the Book wish  that they could convert you people, after your conscious and willful belief/acceptance [of the Messenger and the Qur'aan], back to the state/company of stringent deniers. Their wish is because of selfish envy emanating from within their selves, after that which the Statement of Proven Fact/Grand Qur'aan has since made evident/manifest for them. Therefore/however/nevertheless you people tell the truth overlooking their grudge and you remain indulgent persistently till such point in time Allah may enforce His Decree/Command. Certainly it is a fact that  Allah has eternally the command and control over each and every thing, individually and collectively, to set them right/fix them in measure. [Indeed, Allah has eternally infinite power over all things] [2:109]

jkhan

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Re: Does 9:29 encourage us to fight Christians and Jews etc. unprovoked?
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2021, 04:22:40 AM »
Peace....

This is big verse in the sight of others who believe not in Quran... Not only among those who hate Quran and also among those doesn't care about Quran... This verse may and possibly make hatred within themselves spontaneously...

Coz this verse doesn't seem to have any connection with preceding verses etc
..
Yes we all know this chapter has many a verse revering to war and that also on yester year connected with prophet..  No way near have any connection to us...

But still what does this verse mean... I have seen few who left the faith are pointing out this verse for their loss of faith in Quran...

Do any one have a better explanation what actually God meant by this verse... Or explain the verse in its merit pls...
Honestly I didn't understand the verse...

Mahdi20

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Re: Does 9:29 encourage us to fight Christians and Jews etc. unprovoked?
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2021, 07:28:02 AM »
In the name if God

Salam , sorry for bad grammar
 
In my opinion, there is one keywords in this verse

وَلَا يُحَرِّمُونَ مَا حَرَّمَ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ

i agree with dr shabbir ahmed translation on this

nor do they accept what God and His Messenger have made mandatory (being law abiding citizens)

So.... what they did?

See 9:34

 يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِنَّ كَثِيرًا مِنَ الْأَحْبَارِ وَالرُّهْبَانِ لَيَأْكُلُونَ أَمْوَالَ النَّاسِ بِالْبَاطِلِ وَيَصُدُّونَ عَنْ سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ ۗ وَالَّذِينَ يَكْنِزُونَ الذَّهَبَ وَالْفِضَّةَ وَلَا يُنْفِقُونَهَا فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ فَبَشِّرْهُمْ بِعَذَابٍ أَلِيمٍ

O you who believe, many of the Priests and Monks consume the money of the people in falsehood, and they repel from the path of God. And those who hoard gold and silver, and do not spend it in the cause of God, give them news of a painful retribution.(Monotheis group translation)

In my opinion the monks and priests which were under muslim goverment citizen(note that this is a key.... being an muslim goverment citizen) did something wrong finacially(my english is poor, i hope you guys get what i want to say)
For example , maybe there was a rule that every able citizen must pay 10% of his/her income to goverment,
So that the government gives it to the poor, but some law abiding christians and jews didnt gave this(this 10% is an example, and it was not just for christians and jews, it was for muslims too....)


So the 9:29 say take this 10% from them, if they dont, fight with them until they pay.(as i said 10% is an example , it may was other finacial thing)





And from among the people are some who take other than God as equals to Him, they love them as they love God; but those who believe love God more strongly....

afootandlighthearted

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Re: Does 9:29 encourage us to fight Christians and Jews etc. unprovoked?
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2021, 09:52:20 AM »
This verse has been on my mind for several weeks now, I'm glad to see a thread is getting started on it. It does seem to stand out.

I wouldn't necessarily translate jizyah into 'tax'... it means 'recompense.' which maybe could be construed into 'tax' but it doesn't seem clear.

I haven't looked into it too much but I've heard someone mention, perhaps on reddit, that the quran treats 'u'tu alkitab' and 'ahl alkitab' differently.

Who is understood when it mentions 'given the book' is it limited to christians and jews? is it all sects of judaism and christianity? Why would God be harsher on those closer to the mumin in docterine than the mushriks whom He gives stipulations when fighting.

I hope this thread doesn't get buried because this verse does confound me.

jkhan

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Re: Does 9:29 encourage us to fight Christians and Jews etc. unprovoked?
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2021, 08:33:02 PM »
Peace...

Though I have read this chapter 9, many times,  I didn't understand what this verse really means.. Always skipped I guess.. Since it was not relevant to me.. But it is connected with some people's disbelief..  So I started reading from the beginning  of chapter 9 .. In between I wrote what I wrote in my last thread.. But I begged to God but now I feel I am better satisfied than before.  .

From the beginning  of chapter 9 it indicates that believers given hard time by others ie  polytheists,  hypocrites and disbelievers among those who were given scriptures before... It all seems they all have betrayed the believers to live a peaceful life or to implement a better life system (Deen)..  Such people were among those who called believers within their fathers and brothers.. But with the time it guarantees that Prophet and his believers overcame these people in power and in quantity perhaps.. And the rule is under their hands. And it gives a clear indication that after this year of theirs (whatever polytheist did calculate) the total absolute power in the territory was in the hands of Prophet and believers and Muslims and perhaps hypocrites(they did remain on the side that is better for them for sure)...

So when the story comes to 9:29 ... It seems there is difficulties in handling people under the government.. Coz of their corruption and deception and violations.. God is not directly involving in the government or territory issues.. But it is clear God kept giving certain commands..

Jiszya for me is much applicable if it is called penalty.. Penalty is right option... Those who violate with the intention of corruption and unrest among the people and its territory while they still live under the rule of believers... They should be penalized for their deeds which makes the Deen (system) unblemished...
That's what it is called fight at the start of the verse 9:29... Not to kill them for sure.. You can't penalize (Jiszya)  if you kill them.. You can't expect them to be debased / subdued (saghirun) by having to obey the standard of law if you kill them by fighting .. So it is clear..  Once the law of penalizing probably financially those who violate the system it may come to control and they(those violate) may willingly subdue, not by practicing law in every aspect but being not aggressors against the law so that the Deen /system will prevail for the well being of every citizen..

God clearly commanded not to entertain the polytheists within the premises of the restricted sanctuary (masjid AL haram) ..so as leaders and believers of that nation, they have to implement the command. ... but while implementing they may face difficulties with polytheist though the power is in the hands of believers.. So control them.. That's fight.. Not to kill them.. So let them subdue willingly obeying in the first place.. If not obey an choose to violate and let them pay the penalty and subdue in the end natutally.. Compare verse 9:5 with 9:29 ...it is totally different..

Same to all groups mentioned in the verse 9:29... Believers are not included there.. Believers are those who surrender to Allah's order if not they are not believers .. Though they call themselves...

Verse 9:29 clearly says.. Fight with those......  .. Haththa (until) they pay penalty and subdue themselves... So it is not mentioned fight with those UNTIL they die...

Purpose of Allah was to "akeem Salat wa'atuzakat " it means let them establish ethics/morals and be purified within the system.. It doesn't mean they are believers.. They live as a citizen who follow system..

So Alhamdullah I am satisfied with the verse...but I expect better understanding from those who researched the verses 9:1-35 with deep sense..

hawk99

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Re: Does 9:29 encourage us to fight Christians and Jews etc. unprovoked?
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2021, 08:35:17 AM »
Yeah you have to pay taxes to live here or be forced out. 

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