Author Topic: What is the meaning of SuJuD according to The Quran? - new article  (Read 12222 times)

brook

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Re: What is the meaning of SuJuD according to The Quran? - new article
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2010, 01:36:46 AM »
4:102 itself says what to do so that the enemy does not rush upon you in one go...

Salaam Wakas.  I am sorry to say it, but you are terribly mistaken about the rerason why they need their weapons ready even during their صلو in that life and death situation. They need them in order to defend themselves when the enemy attacks. The enemy will attack no matter what.  

Please refer to 4:104. The attack did happen and the believers had such terrible time that "the land, for all that it is wide, did constrain you, and ye turned back in retreat." (9:25)

You can never expect professional commanders to take you seriously if you insist that an army may do without rear and forward teams to look out. They do their best to discover the whereabouts of the enemy but they may still fail. In the case we are discussing they failed.       

*

4:102 ...and thou uphold/establish the salat/bond for/to them*, then let a group from among them stand/establish** with thee and let them bring their weapons; then when they have SaJaD then let them be behind you (plural)...

*can be translated as for/to/unto them, e.g. see 2:109, 5:75
**again, it can mean "stand" figuratively, e.g. see usage in 4:127


Please excuse me again but from these words I cannot decide what you really think is the صلو that verses 4:101-103 deal with.

Is it
a Quran lesson,
a briefing on the battle tactics as a friend here has suggested,
an attempt to boost the morale of the believers in that life and death situation,
or what?

If I knew your idea, I would be able to tell you whether it is plausible or not.

Perace,
Hasan Akçay

Wakas

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Re: What is the meaning of SuJuD according to The Quran? - new article
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2010, 02:38:41 AM »
peace all,

Mazhar,
On the contrary, rather than suspecting a guilty concious, I offered the two possible options of what you may have been alluding to. Your posts are often not clear, as I'm sure others have noted. As you know one does not "prostrate and come near" physically, thus it is obvious, the "come near" part is not body-physical, implying just like the part prior, i.e. the SJD.

Hasan,
Unfortunately, your post contains multiple illogical/unevidenced statements:

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I am sorry to say it, but you are terribly mistaken about the rerason why they need their weapons ready even during their صلو in that life and death situation. They need them in order to defend themselves when the enemy attacks.

And why do you think I think they need them? To make music?

Quote
The enemy will attack no matter what. 

Ahh, so its a certainty is it? Tell us how you deduced this from The Quran?

Quote
You can never expect professional commanders to take you seriously if you insist that an army may do without rear and forward teams to look out.

This just shows you did not understand what I wrote about 4:102. See Asad's blatantly obvious comment.

Quote
In the case we are discussing they failed.

Quranic/logical evidence?


For my view on what the regular/timed salat is, see: http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htm

Please note, I will not reply any further unless your statements are evidenced and clearly explained. I am only interested in logical discussion.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11.

www.studyQuran.org

Mazhar

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Re: What is the meaning of SuJuD according to The Quran? - new article
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2010, 03:11:32 AM »
Quote
Mazhar,
On the contrary, rather than suspecting a guilty concious, I offered the two possible options of what you may have been alluding to. Your posts are often not clear, as I'm sure others have noted. As you know one does not "prostrate and come near" physically, thus it is obvious, the "come near" part is not body-physical, implying just like the part prior, i.e. the SJD.

Peace Wakas,

Thouh I know that you presume from mention of various words in an Arabic-Enfglish dictionary under a Root that any of it could be applied anywhere, but I presume that you do know basic and general principles of Arabic language to understand construction of a sentence for which reason it should not atleast be unclear for you.

Two imperative verbs واسجد وقترب are joined through Waw, conjunction which is here عاطفة reflecting that the first act will yeild the result given in the second verb which is of Form-VIII having reflexive causative meanings.

What would one gain/achieve by humbling before somebody, paying obeisance, or bowing and prostrating him/Him? Simple object/purpose is to get nearer to him/Him, to become focus of his/His attention.

brook

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Re: What is the meaning of SuJuD according to The Quran? - new article
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2010, 06:57:37 AM »
Peace Wakas.

(1)I noted that you said they needed their weapons ready in order to intimidate the enemy and thus prevent them from, in your own words, "rushing upon you in one go". You did not say they kept their weapons within their reach in order to defend themselves when the attack happened.

You fail to see the difference between prevention and defense.  

(2)An-Nisaa 104: And slacken not in following up the enemy. If ye are suffering hardships, they are suffering similar hardships; but ye have hope from Allah, while they have none...

-A fierce battle took place.
-The two sides suffered similar hardships.

-Muhammed did not start it; otherwise, he would have chosen a more convenient time for his army to suffer fewer hardships. Please refer to 9:25-26.

-The believers did not give up because God gave them hope for things worthwhile such as afterlife.    
-The enemy gave in earlier because they were too afraid to die and get finished for good.
-Although the believers were still licking their wounds; God ordered them not to slacken to follow up the fleeing enemy.

(3)Asad's "blatantly obvious comment" has got nothing to do with the rule that it is a must for every army to send a team ahead and leave one behind to act as a lookout.

Army officers of their right mind will never take you seriously if you insist that you can do without those teams.

Prophet Muhammed was in his right mind. He acted in an exemplary manner -اسوة- in combat (33:21). He did assign a special team to act as a lookout even while his army were actively fighting (3:152-153).

(4)Please note, I will not reply any further unless your statements are evidenced and clearly explained. I am only interested in logical discussion.

You are absolutely free not to reply, resorting to your subjective excuses. But please watch your manners. I am not dying to reason with you.

I am still waiting for your "clearly explained" reply to my question: What do you really think is the صلو that verses 4:101-103 deal with?

Is it
a Quran lesson,
a briefing on the battle tactics as a friend here suggested,
an attempt to boost the morale of the believers in that life and death situation,
or what?

If I knew your idea, I would be able to tell you whether it is plausible or not.
 
Peace,
Hasan Akçay

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Re: What is the meaning of SuJuD according to The Quran? - new article
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2010, 11:14:56 AM »
peace,

Mazhar,
Please cite your evidence for the following unevidenced statement: "Two imperative verbs واسجد وقترب are joined through Waw, conjunction which is here عاطفة reflecting that the first act will yeild the result given in the second verb which is of Form-VIII having reflexive causative meanings."

Even if you can cite evidence, it will not affect my view. At best, all it will do is weight it a bit more in one direction or the other. Far from definitive.


Hasan,
Not only do you not understand what I wrote, you make up your own version of what I said, and do not answer my questions. Please re-read multiple times, and try again.



All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11.

www.studyQuran.org

Mazhar

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Re: What is the meaning of SuJuD according to The Quran? - new article
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2010, 11:54:29 AM »
Quote
Mazhar,
Please cite your evidence for the following unevidenced statement: "Two imperative verbs واسجد وقترب are joined through Waw, conjunction which is here عاطفة reflecting that the first act will yeild the result given in the second verb which is of Form-VIII having reflexive causative meanings."

Even if you can cite evidence, it will not affect my view. At best, all it will do is weight it a bit more in one direction or the other. Far from definitive.


Should I presume that you do not even understand what  عاطفة  and  معطوف إلى mean and signify?

And you seem to have ignored a simple fact

Quote
What would one gain/achieve by humbling before somebody, paying obeisance, or bowing and prostrating him/Him? Simple object/purpose is to get nearer to him/Him, to become focus of his/His attention.

Wakas

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Re: What is the meaning of SuJuD according to The Quran? - new article
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2010, 03:27:08 PM »
peace Mazhar,

Yes, please presume that. Now, please explain and cite your evidence.


And I ignored the so-called "simple fact" because it is irrelevant. However, there is a chance I have not appreciated the point you are making, so please re-explain very clearly and how it relates to what I wrote.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11.

www.studyQuran.org

Mazhar

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Re: What is the meaning of SuJuD according to The Quran? - new article
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2010, 05:15:13 AM »
peace Mazhar,

Yes, please presume that. Now, please explain and cite your evidence.


And I ignored the so-called "simple fact" because it is irrelevant. However, there is a chance I have not appreciated the point you are making, so please re-explain very clearly and how it relates to what I wrote.


Peace Wakas,

Evidence was there only if you took that seriously. What does an appositive particle do? Does it not refer and signify a relationship?

An act is always done for a purpose intended to be achieved and is done only when the doer expects or considers there being a possibility of realizing that purpose/objective by the act he performs.

Now please ponder and find what could be the possible objective/purpose-expected result/realization of sjd and pl let us know that.

Wakas

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Re: What is the meaning of SuJuD according to The Quran? - new article
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2010, 06:00:14 AM »
peace Mazhar,

My point was you saying it is a specific pattern or usage of an appositive particle or whatever does not prove anything without actual evidence it is what you said it is. Hence my request for evidence. Since you have provided none despite being asked twice, I will assume you cannot back up what you said with evidence.

Also, the other points you brought up are non-points in the sense that they do not add to the discussion in any definitive way.

If you had brought up an issue that made a significant point or if true would disprove anything I said in my article, then I'd be interested. What surprises me is your concern for minor aspects of an understanding without tackling the bigger issues. This of course leads one to think you cannot tackle them.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11.

www.studyQuran.org

Mazhar

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Re: What is the meaning of SuJuD according to The Quran? - new article
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2010, 07:12:45 AM »
peace Mazhar,

My point was you saying it is a specific pattern or usage of an appositive particle or whatever does not prove anything without actual evidence it is what you said it is. Hence my request for evidence. Since you have provided none despite being asked twice, I will assume you cannot back up what you said with evidence.

Also, the other points you brought up are non-points in the sense that they do not add to the discussion in any definitive way.

If you had brought up an issue that made a significant point or if true would disprove anything I said in my article, then I'd be interested. What surprises me is your concern for minor aspects of an understanding without tackling the bigger issues. This of course leads one to think you cannot tackle them.

Peace Wakas.

This is reflection of insisting to remain stuck up with the idea that has once come to mind and not paying slightest heed to what simple and plain propositions have been made. You have arrived at this conclusion without having given consideration to the objective and purpose of doing all that which could have given you plain and simple meanings of the word you are trying to understand.

Quote
Please note, that is not to say body-physical acts are not allowed. A human being is composed of mind, body and spirit and often body-physical acts can serve to show respect, self-abasement and humility, used as a greeting, or focus our mind etc such as the practice of meditation, tai chi, yoga or kneeling when in supplication to God etc. It simply means that the argument for SJD=prostration and therefore prostration during upholding/establishing the salat cannot be made using The Quran.

Why should you do all this? What you want to gain out of it? Please narrate objective that you personally wish to obtain by sjd, in whatever manner you wish to do this.