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(Another) personal investigation of salat

Started by MesMorial, November 02, 2010, 11:54:47 PM

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MesMorial

(I posted this in the 19.org forum but it is still waiting to be approved)


***


I was examining this:


http://www.yuksel.org/e/religion/salaat.htm


and comparing it to Pierre?s first post in this thread:


http://www.19.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=8214


***


Well I have some remarks/confusions. I am an ignorant in Arabic so maybe I have based this on false assumptions:

If we accept Pierre?s (traditional) interpretation of 11:114 to include 3 prayers and that 17:78 refers to the literal declining of the sun (and not sunlight), the middle prayer is still troubling.


?Establish regular prayers - at the sun's decline till the darkness of the night, and the morning prayer and reading: for the prayer and reading in the morning carry their testimony.?

Qur?an 17:78


Therefore the ?noon? prayer is observable not just at noon but actually until nightfall? Therefore it is permitted to observe the ?noon? prayer after the important middle prayer? Does this not defy the interpretation of ?middle? to mean the centre of 5 (so making it redundant)?


***


I was considering Mr. Yuksel?s ideas and well I will use Ali?s translation:


?And establish regular prayers at the two ends of the day and at the approaches of the night: For those things, that are good remove those that are evil: Be that the word of remembrance to those who remember (their Lord):?

Qur?an 11:114


To me it clearly states the ends of the day and hence these prayers should be observed after sunrise and before sunset (I assume that these are not a part of layl (night)?) This eliminates the overlapping of night prayers as presented in Mr. Yuksel?s article, although necessarily it still gives us 3 prayers for that ayah. Now we could more easily interpret the 17:78 (?noon?) prayer to actually be placed at the declining of the sunlight (just before sunset) since it is not only sunlight that is declining from our vision but also the sun (i.e. below the horizon). Also the word ?until? (ilā) suggests that we are to maintain it until night and hence logically we begin just before sunset). Hence the sunset prayer in 11:114 is also the prayer in 17:78. Now we have three salawat ?plus? a middle prayer. It would be logical that this middle prayer be between the two ends of the day (i.e. the night prayer already mentioned in 11:114). It is dissatisfying to assume (as does Submission.org) that the middle prayer is so named due to the position of the sun (i.e. about 3 o? clock). Perhaps even more logically it could mean the middle prayer of our day (i.e. the sunset prayer once more).

This is just my logic but correct me if I have committed a blunder.

Peace to all.
[url="http://www.youtube.com/user/MesMorial"]http://www.youtube.com/user/MesMorial[/url]

brook

Salaam MesMorial.

The two ends of the day mentioned in 11:114 definitely belong to the night because they are when the time for the salati alAAisha begins and when the time for the salati alfajr ends. Remember, the salaat is timed (4:103), and this will come true only if we know when it begins and when it ends.

Take the first end of the day, that is the sunrise, which actually is a line. The side of the line facing the day is part of the day, and the side of the line facing the night is part of the night. If the sunrise were when the salati alfajr begins, we could not know when it ends; as a result it would mean nothing in terms of the definition of time; that is, the time for salati alfajr in our case.



The time for the salati alfajr begins when the white thread of dawn appears to you distinct from its black thread (2:187) and ends just when the disc of the sun touches the horizon. The salati alAAisha begins when the  setting sun disappears from the day and ends at ghasaqi allayl; that is, nightfall (17:78).

Both the salati alfajr and the salati alAAisha are night salaats. There is no daily day salaat in the Quran.

Peace,
Hasan Ak?ay

MesMorial

Salaam and many thanks.

That leaves the problem of the "middle prayer"... :-[

I am not sure that 2:187 mentions a specific time for Fajr since it is referring to fasting...but nevertheless.


Peace.
[url="http://www.youtube.com/user/MesMorial"]http://www.youtube.com/user/MesMorial[/url]

brook

That leaves the problem of the "middle prayer".

A salaat is obligatory only if it is timed (4:103). And since you can not find a time which is defined with a beginning and an end for any salaat other than the morning and evening salaats, the so-called middle prayer is not valid. The people who claim it to be valid have to either define it by referring to its beginning and end or give up their claim. It actually is a matter of believing in the words of God, who says that the salaat is timed.  

I am not sure that 2:187 mentions a specific time for Fajr since it is referring to fasting...

There is no need to be unsure. The appearance of the white thread at the break of the light corresponds to its disappearace at the fall of the dark. Just as its disappearance defines a salaat time at ghasaqi allayl, so does its appearance define another salaat time at fajr.

Actually those are the times when the approaches of the night (zulafan mina allayl) rise up to their start in the evening and fall down to their end in the morning (11:114). In other words, the approaches of the night are from sunset to nightfall in the evening, and from fajr to sunrise in the morning.  

Peace,
Hasan Ak?ay

MesMorial

The middle prayer is definitely there:


"Guard strictly your (habit of) prayers, especially the Middle Prayer; and stand before Allah in a devout (frame of mind)."

Qur'an 2:238


There are different claims about what is meant by "middle" (e.g. if it is the right word) but ultimately its time-frame is suggested in 17:78:


"Establish regular prayers - at the sun's decline till the darkness of the night, and the morning prayer and reading: for the prayer and reading in the morning carry their testimony."

i.e. from noon 'til sunset, or the decline of the visible sun (below the horizon) 'til nightfall. Each prayer has a fixed time. I would need to know the exact words for "fixed times" in Arabic since it might imply fixed periods.

Do you advocate two salawat each day?


Peace.
[url="http://www.youtube.com/user/MesMorial"]http://www.youtube.com/user/MesMorial[/url]

brook

Salaam MesMorial. Thanks for intending to learn what I advocate in terms of number of obligatory salawat each day. I advocate 2.

I can't see in the Quran a so-called "middle prayer" to be performed in an allocated time-span with a beginning and an end, which is a must for it to be obligatory according to 4:103. The time for the salati al-wusta mentioned in 2:238, for example, is so unclear that you can not even tell whether it is noon time or midnight.

If I remember correctly, adverb wusta in "as-salati al-wusta" has been discussed in detail in this forum and decided that it means moderate, which covers all salawat. That is, the evening salat and the morning salat and the salat on the cogregation day are all to be performed moderately, without resorting to the extreme. Please refer to Al-Israa 110, where God says: "Neither speak thy prayer aloud, nor speak it in a low tone, but seek a middle course in between."

Peace,
Hasan Ak?ay


mmkhan

Salaaman MesMorial,

Quote from: MesMorial on November 03, 2010, 01:49:46 AM
Salaam and many thanks.

That leaves the problem of the "middle prayer"... :-[

I am not sure that 2:187 mentions a specific time for Fajr since it is referring to fasting...but nevertheless.
Peace.

This is how I understand the "Middle Prayer"

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601300.0

May Allah guide us all towards His path.
Mohammed M. Khan
6:162    قل إن صلاتي ونسكي ومحياي ومماتي لله رب العلمين
6:162    Say: My contact prayer, and my rites, and my life, and my death, are all to Allah, Lord of the worlds.

3:51

loxbox13

Maybe the wusta, middle prayer in the friday prayer, or paybe sat wusta isn't a prayer at all,  salah too has multiple meanings in the quran

is there a jumaa prayer ? if there is, what is it's time ?

Duluk shams = The rubbing of the sun, that is exactly when it is setting while u still see it,  well, i am not 100% sure, but many arabic speaking people told me that ,

The salat duluk shams to Ghasak a layl  =  1 time range ,  so the evening is one salat
The fadjr is easy ,  it is one salat,  starts when the stars satrt fading away, that is when the 1 st daylight start until the complete daytime right before the sun start going up

2 parts of the day and close to the night ( some interpret it part of the night ) still , if we say one part of the day to closer part of the night, and the other one two, the oether part of the day and close to the night
it can also be interpreted as 2 prayers of tarafay nahar ( extreme parts of the day ) and on the night ( as another prayer) even this one is 2 plus one nafila,  for there is a verse that says night time there is nafila et not obligatory

Every prophet had the celebration  Ashi wa ibkar  or bukratan wa assila or ghodou wa lassal ,  these too, they all go for the two parts of the day and this is the prophets


Let's see the prayers of the prophets

واذكر عبدنا داوود ذا الأيد انه أواب انا سخرنا الجبال معه يسبحن بالعشي والإشراق

يا أيها الذين آمنوا اذكروا الله ذكرا كثيرا وسبحوه بكرة وأصيلا

اصبر إن وعد الله حق ، واستغفر لذنبك وسبح بحمد ربك بالعشي والإبكار

قال آيتك ألا تكلم الناس ثلاثة أيام إلا رمزا ، واذكر ربك كثيرا وسبح بالعشي والإبكار


This comment isn't final, still researching, but so Far logic keep taking me for two salats ,  Fadjr and Isha plus joumouaa
I have a problem defining a time for jumuaa if it is really a salat prayer, or salat wusta,  if jumuaa is salat wusta than there is no problem,  it is at noon, for it is right in the middle
well , this is what i think for now


brook

Tarafay annahar = the two parts of the day  (litteraly)
they're not on the night, they're on the day side, it is part of nahar (daytime) not layl ( night time)
one start at the begining of the fading of the stars and ends at right before sunrise ot at sunrise ( i am not sure )
Isha starts at the rubbing of the sun  to ghassaq allayl ( beggining of the darkness ) or in another verse Zulfan mina layl,(close to the noght ),  when it's completely night,  it starts a nafila,  time of isha is gone
this is what i think about it, what do u think ?

mmkhan

Salaaman LoxBox......13,

Everything is very clear in AlQuraan by Allah's grace... Alhamdulillahi Rabbil Aalameen.

Please have a look at my understanding below:

Quote from: loxbox13 on November 16, 2010, 08:12:29 PM
Maybe the wusta, middle prayer in the friday prayer, or paybe sat wusta isn't a prayer at all,  salah too has multiple meanings in the quran

is there a jumaa prayer ? if there is, what is it's time ?

4:103    فإذا قضيتم الصلوة فاذكروا الله قيما وقعودا وعلى جنوبكم فإذا اطمأننتم فأقيموا الصلوة إن الصلوة كانت على المؤمنين كتبا موقوتا

4:103    So, when you have completed the contact prayer, then remember Allah while standing, or sitting, or on your sides. So, when you are relieved, then make the contact prayer straight. Indeed, the contact prayer for the believers is a timed schedule.

What are the timings [NOT names, as per the above aayat] then? There are three Salaat timings as follows:

Salaat AlFajr: 24:58
Salaat AlEshaan: 24:58
Salaat AlWusta: 2:238

Detail about Fajr time: 2:187
Detail about Eshaan time: 38:31 or 38:30-32
Detail about Wusta time: 5:89

As I explained in http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601300.0

Wusta is referring to Salaat AlJuma and timings are self-explanatory. How?

2:238 is talking about Salaats and when it says Middle [Wusta] that means in Middle of the two regulars Salaat. No, no, not daily, only on Juma day. Please refer 62:9

Lets have another look to see weather Middle time is fit for Salaat AlJuma or not.

62:9    يأيها الذين ءامنوا إذا نودي للصلوة من يوم الجمعة فاسعوا إلى ذكر الله وذروا البيع ذلكم خير لكم إن كنتم تعلمون

62:9    O you who believe, if the contact prayer is called to at the Friday, then you shall hasten towards the remembrance of Allah, and cease all selling. This is better for you, if only you knew.

Here, when were you selling? I mean at what time... at Fajr or at Eshaan? Fajr is not possible, cause before Fajr you are not selling anything, but that is time .... 24:58

So, Salaat AlJuma is not at Fajr. Confirmed!

62:10    فإذا قضيت الصلوة فانتشروا في الأرض وابتغوا من فضل الله واذكروا الله كثيرا لعلكم تفلحون

62:10    Then, once the contact prayer is complete, you shall disperse through the land and seek the provisions of Allah, and remember Allah frequently that you may succeed.

You see, here, seek the provisions of Allah... When? After Eshaan? No, look at 24:58

Salaat AlJuma is not at Eshaan, confirmed!

That means Salaat AlJuma is not at Fajr and not at Eshaan time... then, what is the time?

Middle [Wusta] of Fajr and Eshaan times.

Hope you understand inshaAllah.



Quote
2 parts of the day and close to the night ( some interpret it part of the night ) still , if we say one part of the day to closer part of the night, and the other one two, the oether part of the day and close to the night
it can also be interpreted as 2 prayers of tarafay nahar ( extreme parts of the day ) and on the night ( as another prayer) even this one is 2 plus one nafila,  for there is a verse that says night time there is nafila et not obligatory

It is really easy to understand 11:114 inshaAllah. Please have a look...

17:78    أقم الصلوة لدلوك الشمس إلى غسق اليل وقرءان الفجر إن قرءان الفجر كان مشهودا

Aqimi AlSalaata = Single Salaat [from Duluki AlShamsi till Ghasaqi AlLayli]

11:114    وأقم الصلوة طرفي النهار وزلفا من اليل إن الحسنت يذهبن السيءات ذلك ذكرى للذكرين

Aqimi AlSalaata = Single Salaat [at Tarafayee AlNahaari]

Hope this help inshaAllah.



Quote
Every prophet had the celebration  Ashi wa ibkar  or bukratan wa assila or ghodou wa lassal ,  these too, they all go for the two parts of the day and this is the prophets

Let's see the prayers of the prophets

واذكر عبدنا داوود ذا الأيد انه أواب انا سخرنا الجبال معه يسبحن بالعشي والإشراق

يا أيها الذين آمنوا اذكروا الله ذكرا كثيرا وسبحوه بكرة وأصيلا

اصبر إن وعد الله حق ، واستغفر لذنبك وسبح بحمد ربك بالعشي والإبكار

قال آيتك ألا تكلم الناس ثلاثة أيام إلا رمزا ، واذكر ربك كثيرا وسبح بالعشي والإبكار

None of the above aayat talks about Salaat... Please take a close look, No Salaat word is used.

May Allah guide us all towards the correct path.

Mohammed M. Khan
6:162    قل إن صلاتي ونسكي ومحياي ومماتي لله رب العلمين
6:162    Say: My contact prayer, and my rites, and my life, and my death, are all to Allah, Lord of the worlds.

3:51