Author Topic: Ibn Kathir claims two salat and one during night prior to abrogation!  (Read 9194 times)

Wakas

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peace all,

I never knew this until now that Ibn Kathir (and probably others) claim there were two daily salat (they call it prayer) and one during the night prior to abrogation then making it 5 daily. Interesting, considering Al Quran's position.

Re:
50:40


Taken from here:
http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1725&Itemid=106


Quote
(and glorify the praises of your Lord, before the rising of the sun and before (its) setting.) There were two ordained prayers prior to the Isra' journey. One before the rising of the sun at dawn and the other before sunset in the evening. Qiyam Al-Layl, prayer at night, was a command for the Prophet and his followers for sometime but it was later abrogated for the Ummah. Later, during the Isra' journey, Allah abrogated all of the previous orders for prayer by ordaining five daily prayers, including the prayers of Fajr before sunrise, and `Asr in the late afternoon. Imam Ahmad recorded that Jarir bin `Abdullah said, "When we were sitting with the Prophet , he looked at the full moon and said,

?أَمَا إِنَّكُمْ سَتُعْرَضُونَ عَلَى رَبِّكُمْ فَتَرَوْنَهُ كَمَا تَرَوْنَ هذَا الْقَمَرَ لَا تُضَامُّونَ فِيهِ، فَإِنِ اسْتَطَعْتُمْ أَنْ لَا تُغْلَبُوا عَلَى صَلَاةٍ قَبْلَ طُلُوعِ الشَّمْسِ وَقَبْلَ غُرُوبِهَا فَافْعَلُوا?

(Certainly you will be brought before your Lord and will see Him as you see this moon, and you will have no trouble in seeing Him. So, if you can avoid missing the prayer before the sunrise and the prayer before sunset, you must do so.) He then recited Allah's statement,

﴿وَسَبِّحْ بِحَمْدِ رَبِّكَ قَبْلَ طُلُوعِ الشَّمْسِ وَقَبْلَ الْغُرُوبِ﴾

(and glorify the praises of your Lord, before the rising of the sun and before (its) setting.)''' The Two Sahihs and the rest of the Group collected this Hadith through the chain of Isma`il. Allah the Exalted said,

﴿وَمِنَ الَّيْلِ فَسَبِّحْهُ﴾

(And during a part of the night glorify His praises), meaning pray to Him. Allah said Ayah,

﴿وَمِنَ الَّيْلِ فَتَهَجَّدْ بِهِ نَافِلَةً لَّكَ عَسَى أَن يَبْعَثَكَ رَبُّكَ مَقَاماً مَّحْمُودًا ﴾

(And in some parts of the night offer the Salah with it, as an additional prayer for you. It may be that your Lord will raise you to Maqam Mahmud.) (17:79) Ibn Abi Najih reported that Mujahid said that Ibn `Abbas said that,

﴿وَأَدْبَـرَ السُّجُودِ﴾

(and after the prostrations.) refers to Tasbih, i.e. glorifying Allah's praises, after the prayers. There is a Hadith collected in the Two Sahihs that supports this meaning. Abu Hurayrah said, "Some poor migrants came and said, `O Allah's Messenger! The wealthy people will get higher grades and will have permanent enjoyment. ' The Prophet said,

?وَمَا ذَاكَ؟?

(Why is that) They said, `They pray as we do, fast as we do, yet they give charity, but we can not. They free slaves, but we can not.' The Prophet said,

?أَفَلَا أُعَلِّمُكُمْ شَيْئًا إِذَا فَعَلْتُمُوهُ سَبَقْتُمْ مَنْ بَعْدَكُمْ وَلَا يَكُونُ أَحَدٌ أَفْضَلَ مِنْكُمْ إِلَّا مَنْ فَعَلَ مِثْلَ مَا فَعَلْتُمْ؟ تُسَبِّحُونَ وَتَحْمَدُونَ وَتُكَبِّرُونَ دُبُرَ كُلِّ صَلَاةٍ ثَلَاثًا وَثَلَاثِين?

(Shall I tell you about something that, if you did it, you would catch up with those who have surpassed you and nobody would be better than you except those who would do the same Say, `Subhan Allah, Alhamdulillah and Allahu Akbar,' thirty-three times each after every prayer.) Later, they came back and said, `O Allah's Messenger! Our brethren, the wealthy Muslims, heard of what we did and they also did the same.' The Prophet said,

?ذلِكَ فَضْلُ اللهِ يُؤْتِيهِ مَنْ يَشَاء?

(This is a favor and grace of Allah, and He grants it to whom He wills.)'' There is another way of explaining the Ayah. It is that Allah's statement,

﴿وَأَدْبَـرَ السُّجُودِ﴾

(and after the prostrations.) refers to the two Rak`ahs after the Maghrib prayer. This was reported from `Umar bin Al-Khattab, `Ali bin Abi Talib and his son Al-Hasan, `Abdullah bin `Abbas, Abu Hurayrah and Abu Umamah, may Allah be pleased with them. This is also the saying of Mujahid, `Ikrimah, Ash-Sha`bi, An-Nakha`i, Al-Hasan Al-Basri, Qatadah, and others.

Contradicted by:

Al Jalalayn:
Quote
and glorify Him at [some part of the] night, that is to say, perform the two evening prayers, and after prostrations (read adbār, as the plural of dubur, or idbār as the verbal noun from adbara, ?to pass?), in other words, perform supererogatory prayers as prescribed by the Sunna after the obligatory ones; it is also said to mean the actual uttering of glorifications at these times, with continuous praise.

Yet more confusion from traditional sources.


Further evidence:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/37518694/Uri-Rubin-Morning-and-Evening-Prayers-in-early-Islam-by-muslims
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

progod

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But it seems Jalalayn is not speaking of any abrogation of previous commandments. I find the Ibn kathir statment interesting as I had come to the same conclusion based on my reading of the Quran. It's even more interesting that the 2 prayers are based on the Quran and the 5 on a hadeeth.

Godbless,
Anwar
The Quranists Must Rise!

http://www.quranists.com

Wakas

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Yes, but what I meant was Jalalayn contradicts Ibn Kathir and provides an alternative or his own explanation. The fact that 5 prayers is openly admitted as not being from Quran by traditional commentators is very telling.

I have also read in other sources, that there were only two daily salat (called "prayer"), e.g.
http://www.amazon.com/Development-Islamic-Ritual-Formation-Classical/dp/0860787125/

I recommend reading the sample pages. Very interesting.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

kgwithnob

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But it seems Jalalayn is not speaking of any abrogation of previous commandments. I find the Ibn kathir statment interesting as I had come to the same conclusion based on my reading of the Quran. It's even more interesting that the 2 prayers are based on the Quran and the 5 on a hadeeth.

Godbless,
Anwar

The red highlight above is from me.

The daily obligatory prayers have been practiced since the days of the Prophet
Abraham (pbuh). We are to offer our daily obligatory prayers AT LEAST FIVE TIMES A DAY, 2:238.
The Qur?an actually tells us the more the merrier when it comes to worshipping GOD Almighty.

There are also some that are so LAZY that don?t want to PRACTICE any
religious rituals at all, and keep interpreting them all to their
liking, i.e., to be just ?symbolic!?

11:114 informs us about the dawn/FAJR, and dusk/MAGHRIB prayers when
it talks about the TWO ends of the daylight/?annahaar. The verse also
informs us of the ?ISHAA?/NIGHT prayer.

17:78 explains the time of early afternoon/ZUHR prayer.

So, up until now we?ve ended up with FOUR prayer times, or the
SALAWAAT in 2:238.

Next, is the SALAATUL WUSTAA, 2:238, which sits right in between the FOUR/
SALAWATT. It sits right in BETWEEN the ZUHR and the MAGHRIB prayers,
thus FIVE DAILY OBLIGATORY PRAYERS PER 24-HOUR DAY. Nothing too
complicated at all, very simple and logical, and all comes from The
Qur?an, and NOT from any other source
.


With Salaam,
Khalil

Wakas

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peace Khalil, all,

Forgive me in advance for being brief, but the content of your above post has been refuted previously. In brief:

11:114 says "...and adjacent/near parts (plural) of the night"

17:78 says "from setting of sun / sunset to darkness of the night, and the quran/reading at dawn"

2:238 meaning a "middle prayer" not only has critical flaws, no time-range exists.


This particular topic has been discussed in significant detail on this forum, perhaps over 100 pages, and you have brought nothing new and repeated the same erroneous arguments. Here is a good starting point: http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598319.0

No wonder traditional commentators struggled to create 5 so-called "prayers" from The Quran, hence the variance.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

kgwithnob

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peace Khalil, all,

Forgive me in advance for being brief, but the content of your above post has been refuted previously. In brief:

11:114 says "...and adjacent/near parts (plural) of the night"

17:78 says "from setting of sun / sunset to darkness of the night, and the quran/reading at dawn"

2:238 meaning a "middle prayer" not only has critical flaws, no time-range exists.


This particular topic has been discussed in significant detail on this forum, perhaps over 100 pages, and you have brought nothing new and repeated the same erroneous arguments. Here is a good starting point: http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598319.0

No wonder traditional commentators struggled to create 5 so-called "prayers" from The Quran, hence the variance.

All highlights above are from me.

Peace Wakas,


I think you skipped the first part of the verse 11:114 in which the dawn / FAJIR and the dusk / MAGHRIB salaats are prescribed.

11:114-And establish prayer at the two ends of the day and at the approach of the night. Indeed, good deeds do away with misdeeds. That is a reminder for those who remember.
And you?re right the latter part of the verse is about the night / ?ISHAA? salaat.

17:78-Establish prayer at the decline of the sun [from its meridian] until the darkness of the night and [also] the Qur'an of dawn. Indeed, the recitation of dawn is ever witnessed.
It says the decline of the sun from its meridian, i.e., after mid-day, NOT ?from setting of sun.? i.e., DULOOK, but not GHUROOB.

2:238-Maintain with care the [obligatory] prayers and the middle prayer and stand before Allah, devoutly obedient.
And you are right again. In 2:238 no time range exists. SALAATULWUSTAA in 2:238 is the middle salaat that must be added to the SALAWAAT, right in the middle, i.e., FAJIR+DZUHUR+SALAATULWUSTAA+MAGHRIB+?ISHAA?.

Last but not least. Dear Wakes, I know this reasoning of mine has been refuted so many times. That doesn?t mean that I should stand by and not be able to refute the opinions of others. The Qur?aan, cover to cover, is full of repetitious issues and arguments, and SALAAH is one of them. Otherwise the Qur?aan was going to have far less verses than 6346=19x334 verses in it!

And yes, STRUGGLE / JIHAAD is non-stop in ALL the different levels of GOD'S creation, but GOD HAS promissed HIS victory and the end.

Peace,
Khalil

Wakas

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peace Khalil,

Quote
And you?re right the latter part of the verse is about the night / ?ISHAA? salaat.

Please do not put words in my mouth. I never said that.

In any case, yes, thanks for sharing your view, as I said, it has been refuted previously, see past discussion. At least you admitted you have no time-range for the so-called "middle prayer". I guess you feel Al Quran wants us to make it up as we please.

Each to their own.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

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progod

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Peace,

I won't add too much but to say that I agree with Wakas, fully in everything he said in response to kgwithnob. I hate for it to sound like I'm just taking sides, but if I were to respond, I could not have responded better or more impartially.

Godbless,
Anawr
The Quranists Must Rise!

http://www.quranists.com

kgwithnob

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Peace,

I won't add too much but to say that I agree with Wakas, fully in everything he said in response to kgwithnob. I hate for it to sound like I'm just taking sides, but if I were to respond, I could not have responded better or more impartially.

Godbless,
Anawr

Dear progod,

You seem to have accepted only 2-salaat times per a 24-hour day and you claim that this opinion of yours is based on the Qur?aan. In the verse 2:238 GOD (SWT) commands us to safeguard over the SALAWAAT and/+ the SALAATULWUSTA. My point here is that the word SALAWAAT, which is an Arabic word is not a singular, a dual, but a PLURAL word, i.e., it MUST be considered to be at least THREE or MORE. Based on this logical reasoning your 2-salaat per day does not hold water according to 2:238 in the Qur?aan. On the other hand this number for SALAWAAT should be an EVEN number in order to have room for the MIDDLE / WASAT for salaatulWUSTAA to sit right in its middle. In other words, the number of SALAWAAT must be at least FOUR, adding the SALAATULWUSTA, thus AT LEAST 5 salaats per day. This logic comes right out of the Qur?aan, NOT any other source as you claim. I?ve been using this reasoning all along in my previous posts on this and other boards as well. Here, I am using it in combination with my previous posts again; to remove any sorts of doubts claiming that FIVE prayer times per 24-hour day is EXTRA Qur?aanic! Again, according to the Qur?aan we must perform AT LEAST 5 salaats per 24-hour day. Please contemplate 2:238 carefully.

Peace,
Khalil

Wakas

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Dear khalil,

Perhaps it is you who has not contemplated 2:238 carefully?

As I said in this thread, see:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598319.0
Specifically:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7727.0

All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org