Community Needs > Islamic Calendar & Ramadhan.
one world - one period of abstention
truthseeker171:
one world - one period of abstention
- a support of the great effort initiated by brother Ayman to find the right timing of the period of abstinence -
A setback in finding the perfect timing of the period of abstinence seems to be the assumption that there is not one but that there are two different Koranic timing-systems in the world: one of the Northern- and one of the Southern Hemisphere.
This would create new forms of uncertainty about the timing of the period of abstention, in a may be more serious way than there are now uncertainties in the present mainstream system, in having arguments about the crescent moon, the -hilal-.
In the article -Blind dating versus perfect timing- is proposed that the Northern- and Southern Hemisphere have their own period of abstinence because the summer-solstice in those parts of the world have a different timing - around June 21 and December 21.
This would mean that the community of believers would be divided into two parts and would have two timing-systems which would lead to two different sets of restricted months –shahr haram- and to two different timings for the hadj-conference.
This double timing-system has structural disadvantages:
1.
Nowadays many people are living around the equator and there is a lot of traffic across the equator.
There would be uncertainty if one would have to join the fast if one has already fasted during the period of abstinence of the other hemisphere.
Many people would be uncertain about which timing of the abstention to follow, the northern or southern system.
Families, communities and countries would be arbitrarily divided because the equator itself is not sufficient as an indicator for finding the –shahr ramadan-
Probably the peoples would be led again by the often political motivated decisions of the religious and political leaders about when to abstain – the northern or southern system.
2.
The system of the restricted months would be jeopardized seriously.
During these restricted months aggression as for instance war is utmost restricted according to the Koran.
In a double timing system caused by the acceptance of a northern and southern timing, many neighbouring countries around the equator would have a different timing of the restricted months – it would be very tempting to a attack a country in its restricted period, the vigilance could be at a lower level then.
In modern times some countries which are thousands miles away from another can have conflicts, there could be a lot of politics involved in agreeing on which of the two timing-systems would be valid when the countries are separated by the equator.
3.
There would be a double timing of the hadj-conference which is during the restricted months.
Each hemisphere would have to organise a hadj of its own, because it has to take place within the restricted months.
The rulings of a hadj-conference would probably only be valid for one hemisphere since only the believers of one hemisphere would participate – this is not appropriate in a globalized world.
A double timing-system would lead to too much uncertainty about important Koranic subjects.
The complete and perfect Koran gives the believers guidance in this matter.
The Koran does prescribe one timing of the period of abstinence.
Verse 2:185 gives two unambiguous relevant rulings:
a: during the –shahr ramadan- the Koran has been sent down.
b: the believers who witness the –shahr ramadan- should abstain it.
This leads to a clear conclusion:
The period of abstention is linked to the timing of the arrival of the Koran.
The descending of the Koran happened on the Northern Hemisphere as far as we can know. So the timing of –shahr ramadan- of the Northern Hemisphere is valid for the whole world.
The principle of one timing-system would also solve the issues of the timing of the restricted months and the hadj-conference.
The period of abstention can be seen as a form of remembrance and celebration of the arrival of the light of the Koran.
During the night-time of the day there can be communal meals, Koran-study, family visits and so on. During the daytime the believers can sleep and rest as is needed and possible, the woosta-prayer has to be performed still.
The Koran is valid for believers around the world but has in some aspects a restricted frame-work in a cultural, historical and geological-astronomical way.
This does not take away anything from the central general messages of the Koran.
salaam,
Truthseeker171
ayman:
Peace Truthseeker171,
--- Quote from: truthseeker171 on May 24, 2010, 07:24:20 AM ---1.Nowadays many people are living around the equator and there is a lot of traffic across the equator.
There would be uncertainty if one would have to join the fast if one has already fasted during the period of abstinence of the other hemisphere.
Many people would be uncertain about which timing of the abstention to follow, the northern or southern system.
Families, communities and countries would be arbitrarily divided because the equator itself is not sufficient as an indicator for finding the –shahr ramadan-
Probably the peoples would be led again by the often political motivated decisions of the religious and political leaders about when to abstain – the northern or southern system.
--- End quote ---
Fasting at the same time has nothing to do with unity. The god never mentions "unity" as a result or an objective or fasting. Sectarians within the same country or group of countries fast together and yet they are not really united. I do understand that the whole concept of doing some "rituals" together resulting in unity is an idea that is hard to give up.
--- Quote from: truthseeker171 on May 24, 2010, 07:24:20 AM ---2. The system of the restricted months would be jeopardized seriously.
During these restricted months aggression as for instance war is utmost restricted according to the Koran.
--- End quote ---
There is no such restriction in the great reading. In fact, it is the opposite if you read 2:217.
--- Quote from: truthseeker171 on May 24, 2010, 07:24:20 AM ---In a double timing system caused by the acceptance of a northern and southern timing, many neighbouring countries around the equator would have a different timing of the restricted months – it would be very tempting to a attack a country in its restricted period, the vigilance could be at a lower level then.
In modern times some countries which are thousands miles away from another can have conflicts, there could be a lot of politics involved in agreeing on which of the two timing-systems would be valid when the countries are separated by the equator.
--- End quote ---
But the entire premise is false to begin with. The restriction period is ONLY about hunting wild life. Of course, the wild life cycle is different between the Northern and Southern hemispheres so the restriction period MUST also be different. Simple.
--- Quote from: truthseeker171 on May 24, 2010, 07:24:20 AM ---3.There would be a double timing of the hadj-conference which is during the restricted months.
Each hemisphere would have to organise a hadj of its own, because it has to take place within the restricted months.
The rulings of a hadj-conference would probably only be valid for one hemisphere since only the believers of one hemisphere would participate – this is not appropriate in a globalized world.
--- End quote ---
But "hagg" is essentially about food which is inherently related to seasons and that would be different between the Northern and Southern hemispheres.
--- Quote from: truthseeker171 on May 24, 2010, 07:24:20 AM ---A double timing-system would lead to too much uncertainty about important Koranic subjects.
The complete and perfect Koran gives the believers guidance in this matter.
The Koran does prescribe one timing of the period of abstinence.
Verse 2:185 gives two unambiguous relevant rulings:
a: during the –shahr ramadan- the Koran has been sent down.
b: the believers who witness the –shahr ramadan- should abstain it.
This leads to a clear conclusion:
The period of abstention is linked to the timing of the arrival of the Koran.
The descending of the Koran happened on the Northern Hemisphere as far as we can know. So the timing of –shahr ramadan- of the Northern Hemisphere is valid for the whole world.
The principle of one timing-system would also solve the issues of the timing of the restricted months and the hadj-conference.
The period of abstention can be seen as a form of remembrance and celebration of the arrival of the light of the Koran.
During the night-time of the day there can be communal meals, Koran-study, family visits and so on. During the daytime the believers can sleep and rest as is needed and possible, the woosta-prayer has to be performed still.
The Koran is valid for believers around the world but has in some aspects a restricted frame-work in a cultural, historical and geological-astronomical way.
This does not take away anything from the central general messages of the Koran.
--- End quote ---
Now this argument may have merit. However, in this case, you would have to separate the fasting from the restriction period.
Peace,
Ayman
herbman:
Salam, Peace,
But the main argument still remain brother Ayman, depending on your geographical location the Quran has been revealed either the 21st of june or the 21st december? Which is a non-sens?
I do believe Quran came down in 1 night.
Peace
truthseeker171:
Salaam Ayman
--- Quote from: ayman on May 24, 2010, 08:41:24 PM ---Fasting at the same time has nothing to do with unity. The god never mentions "unity" as a result or an objective or fasting. Sectarians within the same country or group of countries fast together and yet they are not really united. I do understand that the whole concept of doing some "rituals" together resulting in unity is an idea that is hard to give up.
--- End quote ---
The Quran prescribes certain communal-events: the group-prayer on days of gathering, 62:9. The hadj–debate, 22:27 and the communal period of abstinence, 2:185. These events can be positive for the individual as for the community as well, depending on how they are performed. Not by definition a communal-event will result in more unity but without any communal-events probably some possible steps towards more unity would be absent.
--- Quote from: ayman on May 24, 2010, 08:41:24 PM ---There is no such restriction in the great reading. In fact, it is the opposite if you read 2:217.
--- End quote ---
This is an important matter, the Koran states unambiguously that the restricted months regulate war and other forms of aggression. War and other forms of aggression are restricted during these months, the exception that confirms the general ruling of non-violence is self-defense.
Relevant rulings found in following verses:
Verse 9:36 – the believers are not allowed to wrong themselves concerning the restricted month – the exception is self-defense against the polytheists.
Verse 2:217 – the fighting in the restricted month is a grave matter but repelling from the path of God and evicting people from the –masjid el haram- is worse.
Verse 2:194 – during the restricted month retaliation is allowed in case of aggression.
Verse 9:5 – when the restricted months are over, the believers (within the context of a just war) are allowed to attack the idolaters.
This proofs that the restricted month is about regulation of warfare.
Probably the period of 4 full moons is a kind of cooling down period, in which negotiations can be done to avoid any further warfare and to train the people to resolve matters in a non-violent way.
In the Koran there is no mentioning of wildlife-protection in connection to the restricted months.
--- Quote from: ayman on May 24, 2010, 08:41:24 PM ---But the entire premise is false to begin with. The restriction period is ONLY about hunting wild life. Of course, the wild life cycle is different between the Northern and Southern hemispheres so the restriction period MUST also be different. Simple.
--- End quote ---
This seems to be a too narrow appreciation of the restricted months – it is about regulation of warfare not about protecting wildlife.
There seems to be a misunderstanding about verse 5:1 and 5:2, in these verses is stated that hunting is prohibited for the people who are in a restricted state.
People who are in a restricted state are the participants of the hadj – verse 2:197 states that there is a number of regulations for the participants: sexual intercourse, misconduct and arguments are forbidden. Verse 5:1 states that the people in a restricted state are not allowed to hunt.
Verse 5:2 mentions the visit to the restricted house, so the context is that of the hadj.
There is structural difference between a month that is restricted or an individual being in a restricted state.
The restricted state of an individual is described in verses 2:197 and 5:1 – this is linked to the participants of the hadj-debate.
The hunting-prohibition for the hadj-participants is probably a form of wild-life protection for the surroundings of the restricted house.
Imagine when thousands of visitors would hunt to provide for the food of the participants, the rabbits, the deer and so on would be extinct within a short time – probably that is why from the animal-world only the cattle and the food from the sea are allowed.
--- Quote from: ayman on May 24, 2010, 08:41:24 PM ---But "hagg" is essentially about food which is inherently related to seasons and that would be different between the Northern and Southern hemispheres.
--- End quote ---
The Islamic hadj-debate rather seems to be a conference to benefit individuals and the communities – the timing can be in harmony with the seasons of the Northern Hemisphere, so that there can be an abundance of food for the participants, also the people of the Southern Hemisphere are welcome to the hadj.
The Koran is complete and perfect and does not mention a second hadj in the same year at another place.
The Koran states in verse 2:197 - The hadj (singular, not in the dual plural) is in the known months.
--- Quote from: ayman on May 24, 2010, 08:41:24 PM ---Now this argument may have merit. However, in this case, you would have to separate the fasting from the restriction period.
--- End quote ---
The restriction period is valid for the whole world in the same time-frame, because in the Koran there is no mentioning of a second set of restricted months, so the period of abstinence is not separated from the restricted months.
Salaam,
Truthseeker171
ayman:
--- Quote from: herbman on May 25, 2010, 01:10:48 AM ---But the main argument still remain brother Ayman, depending on your geographical location the Quran has been revealed either the 21st of june or the 21st december? Which is a non-sens?
I do believe Quran came down in 1 night.
--- End quote ---
Peace brother Herbman,
The coming down of the great reading happened to be during the scorching full-moon, wherever that location was. Even within the northern hemisphere, the night rotates and at the exact point in Arabia when the great reading came down, it wasn't even night yet in other parts of the same northern hemisphere. The fasting is not tied to the great reading coming down. It is tied to witnessing of the scorching full-moon regardless of which point in the Northern or Southern hemisphere you are on. The great reading is not even coming down anymore.
Peace,
Ayman
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