Can't believe how callous and materialistic a Sunni imam was to my fiance...

[seattletruth]

I really can't believe how materialistic and callous a Sunni imam was to my fiance. I mean I knew that they value mindless traditions over actually thinking, but this one really set me aback in his staggering display of flat-out heartlessness, douche-baggery, player-haterism, and with a side of cock-block. Not to mention what he said goes entirely against the anti-materialist viewpoint that is taught throughout the entire Quran.

As I posted previously, my fiance and I are planning to get married in a few weeks. She started to make arrangements so that it will be set up when I get there. We are both Quranists, not sectarians (unless you want to call that a sect... I call it Islam). There isn't a mosque in her town, but there is in the next one over. It's a Sunni mosque comprised of mostly Pakistani members. Anyway, my fiance went there to schedule the imam for our marriage.

Everything went fine until the imam started asking about me. He asked about if I had bought a house for us, or something along those lines. She told him that she is temporarily giving up those rights because I can't provide a home for her right now. The imam suggested that she would be better off marrying one of the Pakistani men he knows, because they would be able to provide her a nice house. She says she doesn't need that now, she can take care of herself... Then the imam asked why she wants to marry me. And she told him cause she loves me.... Then the imam said that this is haram, that "love can't exist before marriage in Islam".

He said she needs to not listen to her heart. Then he said that it is haram for us to even be talking to each other without a mahram present, to listen to everything we say. THEN he said that because she does not have a family member that is Muslim to give her away, that he will assign her a mahram from the mosque. He said that before he will marry us, that I would have to meet with this random Paki from their mosque, and he can decide if we can marry or not!!!! And of course they don't want us to marry, because they want her to marry some Paki! They have already offered to get her married to them many times, and she keeps refusing. I can't even believe that when she comes to them to ask for a marriage, they would STILL try to marry her off to some richer guy who she doesn't even know!

I can't believe that the imam would tell her to not listen to her heart, and instead marry the richest guy she can find. What the hell is wrong with him? Could you imagine going to a Pastor, to try to set up a marriage, and then he says "Ohhhh he doesnt have money??? I know a much better guy for you to marry, he's rich... And you shouldn't listen to your heart, that's a sin. And BTW, I won't even marry you unless my friend decides that he likes the husband, but really we all want you to marry one of our friends  instead".

I really can't believe the audacity and heartlessness of some people. Money is everything. Love is a sin. Soul mates are a lie. That's what this imam would want us to believe. Furthermore it's truly SICK that they think a woman cannot think for herself, and must have a man do all the thinking and decisions for her, even if it's a total stranger.

InshaAllah, when we do get married, it sure as hell won't be at that mosque. I don't care how far we have to drive to find a better one. May Allah forgive us if it's a sin, but we both resolved that after we are married, we will make a point to stop by the Paki mosque to pray, just to show them they can't stop love. Well, it will be good to pray there too

[Kukumber]

Peace

Well you sound angry, and rightfully so. If getting married at a mosque is important to you, I hope you find a better Imam. They come in all colours, and some have more heart than others.

Have you considered not going to a mosque at all ? Unless its a standard two people born muslim (arab, brown etc), parents involved, I would stay away from them. They find it hard to cater to anyone except a very specific family structure, and marriage situation.

Kukumber.

[Truestar]

I would be really upset too. Your fiance didn't need to be put through all that. Is it really true marriage comes before love in Islam?

[AlFajr]

This would almost be funny if it weren't so pathetic.

[Ayisha]

You are right to be angry but this is how I have found many 'traditional' Muslims to be. When I first reverted I had proposals from men I had never even met! I still cant get my head round that, but pakistani are raised in a more 'arranged' marriage environment - no matter what country they are living in. to that 'culture' love comes after marriage and you marry according to whom your family chooses will be right for you, hence most pakistani men go back 'home' to marry the wife thats been arranged for them. I think its more a cultural thing.

I was even told that as I was divorced and 'older' that I would be better being a second wife rather than be unmarried as being unmarried was inviting the devil 

[dotty]

I've experienced my own marriage in Pakistan.  None of what seattletruth is saying surprises me.  And it's true that loves comes after marriage there... at least for the most part.  The family finds what they consider a suitable partner and the couple starts the "getting to know each other" process after marriage.  I'm all for this tradition... but only when both man and woman agree.  I've witnessed family's put immense pressure (to the point of mental breakdown) on single relatives, just so they will marry who the family wanted.  Even if the person refused... sometimes for years... the family would not give up until they successfully reeled the poor soul in.  Then of course, they have to live the rest of their life with a person they never wanted in the first place.  Force comes in many forms for both males and females in that culture.  I've seen entire families corner a relative and put them through what would be similar to an interrogation... for hours and hours with different family members taking a turn, until the single person can't handle it.  Then it's repeated over time until success is won by the family.  Sometimes it can take a while if the single person is strong... but that won't deter the family one bit. 

Note to seattletruth:
It is not acceptable among the Pakistani culture (generally) to marry outside of the families wishes.  Be sure of what you're doing and be prepared for hardship with her family if they don't agree.  Please don't mind my advice.  I've seen it happen time and time again... even with the strongest love between couples.

God bless you both on your upcoming marriage.

[seattletruth]

That's really sick that the families don't take no for an answer. From what people have told me, it's somewhat better in places like Egypt and Saudia, where the female's wishes are at least respected more (and probably the male's). That's a truly sad situation...

Note to seattletruth:
It is not acceptable among the Pakistani culture (generally) to marry outside of the families wishes.  Be sure of what you're doing and be prepared for hardship with her family if they don't agree.  Please don't mind my advice.  I've seen it happen time and time again... even with the strongest love between couples.

God bless you both on your upcoming marriage.

Thank you for your advice... Luckily I do not have to worry about her family's wishes, she is not Pakistani.. she is a white American convert like me. She only affiliates with that mosque because it's the closest to her town, and I don't think she will be going there again. The reason the imam said she had to have a mahram assigned from the mosque is because none of her family is Muslim, so none of them can give her away.


Alhamdulillah, she said she called a Saudi mosque a couple hours away (the next nearest mosque) and they said that inshaAllah they would perform the marriage for us, no questions asked, without having to meet us first!  

[Alen]

Peace.

Congratulations
Seattletruth, may God give you both strength to stand firm in islama nd forget about that imam and even that mosque, in fact read this:

9:107 And there are those who have taken a temple to do harm and cause rejection, and to divide between the believers, and as an outpost for those who fought God and His messenger before. They will swear that they only wanted to do good, and God bears witness that they are liars. 9:108 Do not stand in it ever. A temple that is founded on righteousness from the first day is more worthy that you stand in it; in it are men who love to purify themselves. And God loves the purified.

God bless you both.
Peace.

[Leyna]

Then the imam said that this is haram, that "love can't exist before marriage in Islam".

...

Love is a psychological sickness, and if it grows strong it affects the body, and becomes a physical sickness, either as diseases of the brain, which are said to be diseases caused by waswaas, or diseases of the body such as weakness, emaciation and so on. End quote.

And he (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in Majmoo’ al-Fataawa (10/132):

Loving a non-mahram woman leads to many negative consequences, the full extent of which is known only to the Lord of people. It is a sickness that affects the religious commitment of the sufferer, then it may also affect his mind and body. End quote.

It is sufficient to note that one of the effects of love of a member of the opposite sex is enslavement of the heart which is held captive to the loved one. So love is a door that leads to humiliation and servility. That is sufficient to put one off this sickness.
...

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in Majmoo’ al-Fataawa (10/135):

If the heart loves Allaah alone and is sincerely devoted to Him, it will not even think of loving anyone else in the first place, let alone falling in love. When a heart falls in love, that is due to the lack of love for Allaah alone.


http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/82941

[BornAgain]

Salaam,

Why is it that some religious officials view that love is a sin? Or any desires for that matter. I believe desires are there, for us to be controlled and not be eliminated/shunned. Good and bad can arise from them, it all depends on how we act upon them.

I, for one, will not want to marry someone I do not know, let alone love. I hope you two can overcome this challenge and have a long-lasting, blessed and peaceful marriage .

Salaam.

[Wakas]

peace all,

Re: love after marriage

If love is only between people who are married then they may wish to consider researching the Arabic word HBB in AQ, e.g. 3:119, 28:56 etc.

However, it should be noted how AQ describes such a relationship (e.g. between husband and wife), and as far as I'm aware it does not use the word HBB, which is interesting. I think the connection AQ wishes us to establish is something deeper, but may well contain "love" as part of it.

[seattletruth]

9:107 And there are those who have taken a temple to do harm and cause rejection, and to divide between the believers, and as an outpost for those who fought God and His messenger before. They will swear that they only wanted to do good, and God bears witness that they are liars. 9:108 Do not stand in it ever. A temple that is founded on righteousness from the first day is more worthy that you stand in it; in it are men who love to purify themselves. And God loves the purified.

Thanks a lot Alen for reminding me of this verse. It seems to me that it applies more to those who make masjids to cause sectarian division, but I am sure it could be applied to any sort of division between believers.

[SarahY]

Peace seattletruth

I guess that's not a pleasant experience.. but there is worse. just remember most people want to do what benefits them and what they "think" is right. in his position he probably thinks he is doing something good by her. from a traditional mindset "love" isn't the way to validate a marriage those kind of things are like unheard of..

why not consider going to another place? there is no ruling that states you need a sheikh/imam to make the marriage official.

does she know any muslims? if she's going to follow their method maybe it would be wise for her to assign her own mahram to "marry" her off. btw it's her right to reject the mahrams verdict if it violates her right (sunni wise). If you both still plan on going there i'd suggest getting her own mahram or finding a different place and maybe not divulging to much of personal affairs.

peace

[RA786]

Salaam Brother...

THAT IS DISGUSTING!  it shows how not only greed/vanity is involved in the masjid but also Politics.

I hope you find a Good masjid to Marry at, and wish you and your soon to be wife the best! Inshallah!

My fiance and I plan on getting married too, We think we are just going to have family and friends gathered at the Beach and some Quran Recitation to be the Marriage Ceremony. Its Cheap, Quran Alone, And gets the Job done! lol

But again, I wish you and your Fiance's Wedding to be Great! (wherever you decide to have it)

[BornAgain]

Salaam Brother...

THAT IS DISGUSTING!  it shows how not only greed/vanity is involved in the masjid but also Politics.

I hope you find a Good masjid to Marry at, and wish you and your soon to be wife the best! Inshallah!

My fiance and I plan on getting married too, We think we are just going to have family and friends gathered at the Beach and some Quran Recitation to be the Marriage Ceremony. Its Cheap, Quran Alone, And gets the Job done! lol

But again, I wish you and your Fiance's Wedding to be Great! (wherever you decide to have it)

Salam,

Correct me if I'm wrong... I thought you're married already !

[Alen]

Thanks a lot Alen for reminding me of this verse. It seems to me that it applies more to those who make masjids to cause sectarian division, but I am sure it could be applied to any sort of division between believers.

Peace.

Exactly, i would agree that it goes for any division and as we can see this imam was not only harsh to your fiance but completely disregarded the very Quran he is reading but not seeing.

God bless you and congratulations on marriage, bro.
Peace.

[hope4]

Selam

See the problem lies here. Why would anyone who considers themselves to be Quranist, God Alone or what ever you like to call it participate in any sunni ritual? The proper way to get married is by making a contract witnessed by people thus giving a binding commitment between two concenting adults regognised by the law of the land; declaring their unity to each other for as long as they live God willing. If you take this as being some religious ritual then please provide Quranic evidence on how it should be conducted.

Peace

P.S. Hope it all works out for you.

[seattletruth]

Selam

See the problem lies here. Why would anyone who considers themselves to be Quranist, God Alone or what ever you like to call it participate in any sunni ritual? The proper way to get married is by making a contract witnessed by people thus giving a binding commitment between two concenting adults regognised by the law of the land; declaring their unity to each other for as long as they live God willing. If you take this as being some religious ritual then please provide Quranic evidence on how it should be conducted.

Peace

P.S. Hope it all works out for you.

Peace.


It's not about us wanting to do a Sunni ritual, its about us wanting to get married in a house of God, a mosque.

Do you really think that wanting to get married in a mosque makes us hypocrites? A Saudi Imam at a different mosque has agreed to do it no questions asked, so we are excited.

Peace.

[shadowpuppet]

I think it is a distraction to try and source a problem in labels like "Sunni" or "Shia" or whatever it may be...
the opposition we would appear to face, looking at most peoples' complaints on this site, is not even unique to Islam.

It's a power trip...
Mostly male, patriarchal centred philosophy/religion ....social structure
-- and it has thrown everything off balance. Literally.

[seattletruth]

I think it is a distraction to try and source a problem in labels like "Sunni" or "Shia" or whatever it may be...
the opposition we would appear to face, looking at most peoples' complaints on this site, is not even unique to Islam.

It's a power trip...
Mostly male, patriarchal centred philosophy/religion ....social structure
-- and it has thrown everything off balance. Literally.

Yes brother, I completely agree... The biggest thing that I took offense to about this imam wasn't even anything he specifically said; its the fact that an intelligent, independent woman came to him with a request, and instead of granting it, he mandated that she is a feeble brainless woman who is not capable of making a decision for herself and that some random man needs to make her life decisions for her.

The misogynist viewpoint is really the root of the problem in this specific scenario.

[shadowpuppet]

Salaam.

This is the very reason I go on about trying to keep a historical perspective on things that we might
form a kind of direct sense of who the prophets were, rather than allow it to be filtered and tainted through
...the sort of human circuit we're sitting here in disbelief over.

We're talking thousands of years of conditioning, on up to now,
with the destructive legacy of the past century to try and wade through
in our minds, as we try to make sense of everything.

I think the very first example of the Prophet is the Prophet himself, peace be upon him.

The story goes that he didn't read.
That he looked directly to Al Lah for spiritual guidance... not another human's
interpretation, with the exception of his family and the Messengers who came before him.

[hope4]

Peace.


It's not about us wanting to do a Sunni ritual, its about us wanting to get married in a house of God, a mosque.

Do you really think that wanting to get married in a mosque makes us hypocrites? A Saudi Imam at a different mosque has agreed to do it no questions asked, so we are excited.

Peace.

Selam

See the other thing is we call mosques, churches etc houses of God. This is not the case, God does not need a house to reside in. All the universe and beyond it is God's creation and belongs to Him alone. What makes you think he needs a house?

Peace

PS sorry if I have been blunt in my post or offended anyone.

[seattletruth]

Selam

See the other thing is we call mosques, churches etc houses of God. This is not the case, God does not need a house to reside in. All the universe and beyond it is God's creation and belongs to Him alone. What makes you think he needs a house?

Peace

PS sorry if I have been blunt in my post or offended anyone.

Of course God doesn't need a house, and the whole universe belongs to him. However, look how God talks about masjids in the Quran... Obviously they are seen as good places in the eyes of God. They are even referred to as "God's masjids". For you to insinuate that they are bad and should be boycotted is actually an act against God.... It was even spoken of specifically in the Quran:

[2:114] Who are more evil than those who boycott GOD's masjids, where His name is commemorated, and contribute to their desertion? These ought not to enter therein except fearfully. They will suffer in this life humiliation, and will suffer in the Hereafter a terrible retribution.

[9:18] The only people to frequent GOD's masjids are those who believe in GOD and the Last Day, and observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), and do not fear except GOD. These will surely be among the guided ones.


[48:27] GOD has fulfilled His messenger's truthful vision: "You will enter the Sacred Masjid, GOD willing, perfectly secure, and you will cut your hair or shorten it (as you fulfill the pilgrimage rituals) there. You will not have any fear. Since He knew what you did not know, He has coupled this with an immediate victory."


Peace.

[BornAgain]

Selam

See the other thing is we call mosques, churches etc houses of God. This is not the case, God does not need a house to reside in. All the universe and beyond it is God's creation and belongs to Him alone. What makes you think he needs a house?

Peace

PS sorry if I have been blunt in my post or offended anyone.

Salaam,

While I do believe that God is everywhere and that every inch of the universe is His house, I see no problem in Brother Seattletruth wanting to marry in a mosque. Tradition is not religiously binding and should not be taken over the Truth. However, I don't see any harm in practicing tradition when it does not contradict what the Qur'an says. Getting married in a mosque, is nothing different to getting married somewhere else. Just because mosques are associated with traditional islam, that does not mean we have to develop allergy towards it.

Anyway, I guess Brother Seattletruth feels by going to the mosque, he and his fiancee can feel more contented and peaceful, or can feel that their presence is witnessed by God. I see nothing harmful from that. They just feel more comfortable with that... A mosque is just like any other place, and we can prefer one place from another. It's like when we call upon God. The Qur'an states that to God belongs all the beautiful names, and we can call Him using any other names. Yet, some of us prefer to use God or Allah, and use just one name to refer to Him. That's because we feel more comfortable and we can connect to God by using just one or two names. The same case is with mosques; while God owns everything in the universe, one can feel connected to God more by being inside a mosque. We shouldn't criticise them for that.

Anyway, all the best for your marriage . I hope it all goes well.

Salaam.

[Alen]

Peace,
Respect.

Thank God you're getting married, brother.
Be grateful that your marriage will happen soon, God willing.


Peace.

[RA786]

Salam,

Correct me if I'm wrong... I thought you're married already !

Well....hummm.....its a little Complicated...Maybe I should leave it at that.... lol
I personally think we are already Married...we just haven't made it ""Official"" due to Financial/Time reasons.
Its a Long Story...we met/lived togeather before we where both muslims... , and have now became muslims...so we want to make it official soon.

But enough about me...
Congratulations to Settle truth!  Hope Everything Goes Good.

[Jack]

Firstly, good luck to you.

Of course God doesn't need a house, and the whole universe belongs to him. However, look how God talks about masjids in the Quran... Obviously they are seen as good places in the eyes of God. They are even referred to as "God's masjids". For you to insinuate that they are bad and should be boycotted is actually an act against God.... It was even spoken of specifically in the Quran:

[2:114] Who are more evil than those who boycott GOD's masjids, where His name is commemorated, and contribute to their desertion? These ought not to enter therein except fearfully. They will suffer in this life humiliation, and will suffer in the Hereafter a terrible retribution.

[9:18] The only people to frequent GOD's masjids are those who believe in GOD and the Last Day, and observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), and do not fear except GOD. These will surely be among the guided ones.


[48:27] GOD has fulfilled His messenger's truthful vision: "You will enter the Sacred Masjid, GOD willing, perfectly secure, and you will cut your hair or shorten it (as you fulfill the pilgrimage rituals) there. You will not have any fear. Since He knew what you did not know, He has coupled this with an immediate victory."


Peace.

Why haven't you translated masjid? You seem to bash RK quiet a bit, but then use his translation when it fits you?

For you to insinuate that they are bad and should be boycotted is actually an act against God.... It was even spoken of specifically in the Quran:

Try 9:107-108. 'Masjid' can cause harm, rejection. And we are specifically prohibited from entering such places. Also, can you explain "loss of income", according to 9:28? How will mushrikeen not being allowed to enter 'sacred masjid' yield a loss of income?

Masjid = any place where the God's laws are obeyed(sujud).

[abdalquran]

Masjid = any place where the God's laws are obeyed(sujud).

Oooh, nice one, Jack. How about masjid al-haram and masjid al-aqsa?

[seattletruth]

Firstly, good luck to you.

Why haven't you translated masjid? You seem to bash RK quiet a bit, but then use his translation when it fits you?

Try 9:107-108. 'Masjid' can cause harm, rejection. And we are specifically prohibited from entering such places. Also, can you explain "loss of income", according to 9:28? How will mushrikeen not being allowed to enter 'sacred masjid' yield a loss of income?

Masjid = any place where the God's laws are obeyed(sujud).

Peace.


First, just because Rashad was able to twist some verses to come up with his biased and distorted interpretations, doesn't mean that ALL of them were twisted.

I could just as easily have posted the FreeMinds translation by Layth, as it has the same interpretation, while translating the word Masjid as Temple:

2:114 And who are more wicked than those who boycott God's temples; so that His name not be mentioned in them; and they seek their destruction? They will not be able to enter them except in fear; they will have humiliation in this world and in the Hereafter a painful retribution.


It seems like you are having a hard time comprehending what 9:107-8 are talking about. We can refer back to Layth again, and it seems pretty clear that is says SOME people make a temple to do harm, not ALL of them.

9:107 And there are those who establish a temple to do harm and cause rejection, and to divide between the believers, and as an outpost for those who fought God and His messenger before. They will swear that they only wanted to do good, and God bears witness that they are liars.

9:108 Do not maintain in it ever. A temple that is founded on righteousness from the first day is more worthy that you maintain in it; in it are men who love to be cleansed. And God loves the cleansed.

108 talks about the temples founded by those who wish to cause rejection. It does not mean that all temples (masjids) are bad.

The income in 9:28 isn't necessarily directly related to the lack of people coming to the temples.



BTW I don't think you have any high ground to insult RK from, you are the only person I have ever seen to truly rival his ability to twist verses to fit an outlandish interpretation.


Furthermore, your interpretation of the word "masjid" as "any place where God's laws are obeyed" makes no sense when you put it in the context of 2:114.

[2:114] Who are more evil than those who boycott GOD's places where God's laws are obeyed, where His name is commemorated, and contribute to their desertion? These ought not to enter therein except fearfully. They will suffer in this life humiliation, and will suffer in the Hereafter a terrible retribution.
 

Um. How would you boycott a whole city?  Maybe masjid means places like a temple maybe?

Peace.

[hope4]

Of course God doesn't need a house, and the whole universe belongs to him. However, look how God talks about masjids in the Quran... Obviously they are seen as good places in the eyes of God. They are even referred to as "God's masjids". For you to insinuate that they are bad and should be boycotted is actually an act against God.... It was even spoken of specifically in the Quran:

[2:114] Who are more evil than those who boycott GOD's masjids, where His name is commemorated, and contribute to their desertion? These ought not to enter therein except fearfully. They will suffer in this life humiliation, and will suffer in the Hereafter a terrible retribution.

[9:18] The only people to frequent GOD's masjids are those who believe in GOD and the Last Day, and observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), and do not fear except GOD. These will surely be among the guided ones.


[48:27] GOD has fulfilled His messenger's truthful vision: "You will enter the Sacred Masjid, GOD willing, perfectly secure, and you will cut your hair or shorten it (as you fulfill the pilgrimage rituals) there. You will not have any fear. Since He knew what you did not know, He has coupled this with an immediate victory."


Peace.

Selam

The word in 2:114 masa-jidil-la. Does this mean a God’s physical building (home)? Maybe someone could look it up and see the different meanings to help us.

I have read it means ‘God’s Consented Decrees’.

 Waman adhlamu mim-man mana’a masajidal-lah
aiyaz-karor fihas muhu wasa’a fi-qoror-biha. Ulaaika
makana lahm aiyad-khulu-ha ilaa-qor-iffin
lahum fid-dunya khizyun walahum fil-akhirati
a’zabun a’zim. (2:114)
Who is more wicked than those who prevent others
from God’s Consented Decrees (masa-jidil-lah) by
mentioning His name in it and persist in obliterating
it? It is they, who should not be enganging in it,
except those who fear humiliation in this world and
severe punishment in the Hereafter. (2:114)

In-nama ya’muru masajidal-lah man amana bil-lah
wal-yaumil akhiri wa-aqor-mas Sol-laa-ta wa-ataz
zakaa-ta (9:18)
Indeed the people who deserve to promote God’s
consented decrees (masa-jidal-lah) are those who
believe in God and the Last Day and those who
uphold their commitments and keep them pure.
(9:18)

(ref:Aidid Safar)

I would like to hear about different definitions of these words if people will be kind enough to help as I have no knowledge of the root words.

As for marrying in a mosque etc, I guess that is personal desire so good luck. 

May Allah guide us.

Peace

[Jack]

Peace.


First, just because Rashad was able to twist some verses to come up with his biased and distorted interpretations, doesn't mean that ALL of them were twisted.

I could just as easily have posted the FreeMinds translation by Layth, as it has the same interpretation, while translating the word Masjid as Temple:

2:114 And who are more wicked than those who boycott God's temples; so that His name not be mentioned in them; and they seek their destruction? They will not be able to enter them except in fear; they will have humiliation in this world and in the Hereafter a painful retribution.


It seems like you are having a hard time comprehending what 9:107-8 are talking about. We can refer back to Layth again, and it seems pretty clear that is says SOME people make a temple to do harm, not ALL of them.

9:107 And there are those who establish a temple to do harm and cause rejection, and to divide between the believers, and as an outpost for those who fought God and His messenger before. They will swear that they only wanted to do good, and God bears witness that they are liars.

9:108 Do not maintain in it ever. A temple that is founded on righteousness from the first day is more worthy that you maintain in it; in it are men who love to be cleansed. And God loves the cleansed.

108 talks about the temples founded by those who wish to cause rejection. It does not mean that all temples (masjids) are bad.

The income in 9:28 isn't necessarily directly related to the lack of people coming to the temples.



BTW I don't think you have any high ground to insult RK from, you are the only person I have ever seen to truly rival his ability to twist verses to fit an outlandish interpretation.


Furthermore, your interpretation of the word "masjid" as "any place where God's laws are obeyed" makes no sense when you put it in the context of 2:114.

[2:114] Who are more evil than those who boycott GOD's places where God's laws are obeyed, where His name is commemorated, and contribute to their desertion? These ought not to enter therein except fearfully. They will suffer in this life humiliation, and will suffer in the Hereafter a terrible retribution.
 

Um. How would you boycott a whole city?  Maybe masjid means places like a temple maybe?

Peace.

First off, I see nothing wrong about you choosing to marry in a mosque, etc.

I could care less which translation you chose, I just asked you a question. That's it. No need to turn defensive. If you're going to post verses to make your preconceived point, at least be decent enough to post all the verses on the subject.

How about posting verses in context too eh?

2:114 And who are more unjust than those who prevents God's masajid; so that His name not be mentioned/remembered in them; and they seek their destruction? They will not be able to enter them except in fear; they will have humiliation in this world and in the Hereafter a painful retribution.
2:115 And to God belongs the east and the west, so wherever you turn, there is God's presence. God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.

How do you stop someone from remembering/mentioning God's name in a place such as a temple? How do people seek their destruction? Temple here makes no sense.  

We can refer back to Layth again, and it seems pretty clear that is says SOME people make a temple to do harm, not ALL of them.

Baseless assumption. Where did i say that "all" temples are bad?

How do you go about figuring out which 'temple' is good and which is not? What is your criteria?  

BTW I don't think you have any high ground to insult RK from, you are the only person I have ever seen to truly rival his ability to twist verses to fit an outlandish interpretation.

Your lolgic is something to behold. Once again, you've built a straw man argument. Can you read? Where did I insult Rk? Unlike you, I am not obsessed with the guy, so I could care less what he thought. Nor am I here to feed my ego by insulting him.

Um. How would you boycott a whole city?  Maybe masjid means places like a temple maybe?

Straw man #3. Are you going for a record or something? Where did I say that masjid = 'city'? Let me rephrase for those lacking reading comprehension skills. Any SPACE where the God's laws alone are upheld as per 72:18. And NO before you go for more records, that's not a literal translation.

Oooh, nice one, Jack. How about masjid al-haram and masjid al-aqsa?

Masjid al haram = The restricted jurisdiction? Since mushrikeen/"idolaters" are polluted, they are not allowed here (9:28). We've already learned from 2:114 that there are those who seek the destruction of masajid.This is where pertinent matters to society would be discussed, I would think.

Masjid al aqsa (17:1-2) IMO is a spiritual journey that Moses embarked upon (in a state of meditation?), implanting al kitab/The book into his very soul so he could best lead his people.  I am not sure what the literal translation should be. What do you think?
 


 

[abdalquran]

Masjid al haram = The restricted jurisdiction? Since mushrikeen/"idolaters" are polluted, they are not allowed here (9:28). We've already learned from 2:114 that there are those who seek the destruction of masajid.This is where pertinent matters to society would be discussed, I would think.

Masjid al aqsa (17:1-2) IMO is a spiritual journey that Moses embarked upon (in a state of meditation?), implanting al kitab/The book into his very soul so he could best lead his people.  I am not sure what the literal translation should be. What do you think?

To me, masjid al-haram is a space which has been forbidden by God to be desecrated. If we take a look at 17/1-8, it tells us how a masjid al-haram and aqsa degenerated into a simple masjid. So perhaps at that degenerated state, the sujud is to another god.

As for aqsa, i like your spirituality explanation which is confirmed by context (17/2 talks about musa recieving al-kitab, as you've noted) but im having difficulty in thinking how masjid al-haram which is physical can lead up to masjid al-aqsa which is spiritual. Any thoughts?

[es]

It's great you managed to pick up on someone else's bad points and then managed a generous serving of racism yourself. His behaviour doesn't warrant you referring to him as a "Paki". I suggest you try to reform your ownself before casting "stones" at others.