Author Topic: Is God a Man?  (Read 7049 times)

savage_carrot

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Re: Is God a Man?
« Reply #100 on: May 20, 2010, 04:30:32 AM »
Perfect predictability is kinda impossible even in science for us.

If an action and consequence dynamic is within the laws of nature would it still contradict?

*edit to add and just reading the entire thread now...it's a very interesting discussion.
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Re: Is God a Man?
« Reply #101 on: May 20, 2010, 10:40:40 AM »
Peace,

If God is indeed a panthesitic diety so His will is simply defined by the laws of nature. So this God is predictable by science. Therefore, science is simply the 'Psychology of God'. This is cool but contradicts the idea about praying in the Quran where a personal God can be called and asked for things. This means the Quran failed the objective reality test and so you are deluding yourself by contradicting positions. Praying has been defined as false by the scientific method.

Peace,

Rami

Not necessarily. To add to what Savage_Carrot said, there is also the issue of defining what is a valid "prayer". Another thing to consider is the strength of the intent behind the prayer. A half-assed "Oh lord give me a ferrari, a couple of private jets and a pack of skittles" is a very different story from a bottom of the heart "God guide me towards the straight path". I presume that the emotional significance attached to the latter will cause changes in the way one's brain works that innately cause one to seek the straight path (for comparison, thinking "I'm hungry" causes changes in brain function that hence induce hunger).

An example is given in the quran:

13:14 - For Him (alone) is prayer in Truth: any others that they call upon besides Him hear them no more than if they were to stretch forth their hands for water to reach their mouths but it reaches them not: for the prayer of those without Faith is nothing but (futile) wandering (in the mind).

And of course, this is the very "personal God" you are talking about, the example is detailed in the quran. Stretching your hands towards an ocean miles away will never deliver water to you (a la praying to a personal God) but walking to it and getting it is a different story (and this is analogous to "praying" to THE God).

So again, one must define the quranic prayer in this context. Now, science may be the psychology of God but it is not the psyche of God, keep that in mind. A psychologist will never understand the stimuli that cause a mentally ill person to do things until he understands why he does those things in his world; this situation is analogous, one must empathise with the God in the quran in order to understand him and hence recieve MORE of his mercy.

Rami

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Re: Is God a Man?
« Reply #102 on: May 22, 2010, 08:08:47 AM »
OK you are saying that praying to THE true God is actually obeying the laws of nature to get what you want ie. science. I expected to hear this and this according to the Quranic text is FALSE. Not because this personal God doesn't respond to you doesn't mean He is Nature. There are several questions,

1. How did Moses staff turn into a snake or how did he part the sea? Was Moses some kind of doomsday physicist?
2. Did Jonah force his way out out of the whale/fish or created a stimulus that caused the whale to gag? Did Jonah forget the Whale's reflexes?
3. What did Zakharia do when he prayed to God for children....was he reading advanced treatments for infertility.
4. From whom Mohammed got inspiration? According to your God, its Mohammed psyche contemplating according to the laws of nature is the one that produced the Quran! It cant be any other way!
5. How did Abraham made the Fire cool? Ohh...I forgot, he is the father of the pioneer physicist Moses!

And many more. What you say is logical and reasonable but who said the Quran is logical and reasonable! The pagans said that before you....its the myths of the ancients!

People think the Pagans in the Quran are stupid and should know better...no my friends, it is believers who are naive and stupid. Pagans didn't really believe that humans were created from mud, they scoffed over the afterlife, and were too liberal with the number of gods because frankly they didn't give a shit. They thought that only TIME will destroy them.

I believe in a personal God, it makes feel better and makes sense for initial design. Laws of nature can't design shit!

Atheists today are the modern pagans, they believe that the forces of nature are the only true powers coupled with time. This was Einstein's god.

Peace.

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Re: Is God a Man?
« Reply #103 on: May 22, 2010, 08:22:25 PM »
Not exactly. Asking the God directly is part of the law of nature. Consider this, the quran says in surah 55 that God created man then taught him speech. We know that although other animals in existence can communicate in the way we do. To speak languages, one's brain must be endowed with the ability to compute the complex vibrational patterns involved in speech and in other animals the hardware is somewhat capable but the software is not installed, they only have a crappy 30 day trial version that serves their purpose.

Language requires a conscious grasp of the rules of truth and logic; both of these things are BIG in the quran; several verses state that Allah works in concrete truth; truth is only definable under the rules of logic. Everything operates under the laws of truth and logic but you do not see a rock being able to "talk", we as humans are the only entities that can conceptualise.

However the quran says that inanimate objects have a "salat" and also a "glorification", everything in the universe is endowed with a particular such thing. Now if the birds and mountains are not "praying" but the quran says they are still doing "salat" and they are not "glorifying" but they still have a "tasbih" then that means those terms imply something else, not that these things do not have the "salat" and "tasbih" we stupid humans have assigned to the creator. This intrinsically means that our salat/tasbih need not be physically apparent as Sunnis try to promote prayer and beads as.

I believe this question of "prayer" will get answered the second the correct definitions of "salat" and "tasbih" are found.

Quote
1. How did Moses staff turn into a snake or how did he part the sea? Was Moses some kind of doomsday physicist?
2. Did Jonah force his way out out of the whale/fish or created a stimulus that caused the whale to gag? Did Jonah forget the Whale's reflexes?
3. What did Zakharia do when he prayed to God for children....was he reading advanced treatments for infertility.
4. From whom Mohammed got inspiration? According to your God, its Mohammed psyche contemplating according to the laws of nature is the one that produced the Quran! It cant be any other way!
5. How did Abraham made the Fire cool? Ohh...I forgot, he is the father of the pioneer physicist Moses!

I do not know enough to make an accurate judgement about these things but I do know a few things. For one, I am not Moses and nor have I seen him around lately so I can't really say how his staff worked or if the Red Sea did get parted. And I haven't seen Jonah myself either so I can't ask him; same for Zakariya and Abraham.

However, what I do know is that the author of the quran puts forth fundamentally wise arguments that I cannot deny without being dishonest to myself. Even being as materialist as it gets, I cannot argue. Even after denying ahadeeth and all forms of religion and other generalisations of all types, I cannot deny the truth of the quran. Irrespective of the other content in the quran that lies outside of my boundaries of falsification, I find powerful truth in it.

The way I think Muhammad got inspiration is via an inner channel. And yes it would have been psyche contemplating the nature of his creator. I come to this conclusion because my own psyche has lead to the exact same understanding and many people believe in the law of unity and they come to it purely by inner-searching; the insights provided by meditation are identical. I for instance come to it by looking at how the numbers work but as it turns out Buddha got there thousands of years ago without ever touching a sheet of paper.

As for Moses, it is simply said that the Creator inspired Moses to strike his staff at defined places and these events occured. This could be as simple as a niggling intuitive feeling that it is the right thing to do to simply hit that part of the ground. I think the instances of Moses' staff in action (gushing springs and parted sea) have everything to do with him hitting a spot of potential energy where he could massively affect the motion of the matter around him. For instance, suppose you have a building which is just about to tip over, it needs the touch of a feather in the right direction to make it fall otherwise it will stay completely stationary. Now if I say "God inspired Moses to touch the building with a feather and then it collapsed", would I be wrong? Contemplate that.

I think (non-militant) atheists today are perhaps the closest to "believers" described in the quran you will get sometimes, ironically. I don't mean complete deniers blind to any evidence but rather those that have come to the conclusion that there is no God purely by applying logical principles to what they know, and in being true to themselves they find that there is no such "God" as the clergy have tried to impose on them. That doesn't mean they deny the true God of reality however, indeed such a thing would be stupid to do. As the quran says, those who follow the best of the word are those that cannot go astray.

Quote
I believe in a personal God, it makes feel better and makes sense for initial design. Laws of nature can't design shit!

If it makes you "feel better" that is nice but it is a useless substitute for truth. Consider this, if we assume the universe evolved deterministically from the point of the big bang right until the point of the first life, that means that the physical laws of the universe are defined in no other way than to inevitably result in the creation of life on a planet called Earth some 9.2 billion years in. This means that everything is tailored to fit; the speed of light relative to all other things is what provides this proportioning (i.e. the "length" of a meter relative to the "length" of a second).

The key problem here is; if cause and effect itself is dominated by the rules of spacetime then how did the rules of spacetime get "chosen"? This is the same as asking "God created the universe, who created God?". Why is pi equal to 3.1415926, why is the fine structure constant equal to 1/137, why is the proton-electron mass ratio equal to 1836? And the answer is identical to a very simple question - "Why is 2 + 2 equal to 4?" - it's the only way you could truthfully define 2 + 2. And in the same way these fundamental constants of nature must obey the same thing. Contemplation of things like this is what lead me to believe that "Allah" is the lord of reality, who created the universe in Truth [6:73, 14:19, etc]. Thus there is no argument; things are just the way they are and that's all that there is to it.

Also keep in mind one thing, nowhere in the Quran does Allah claim to be a personal creator. Indeed refer to 14:20 -

[14:19] - Do you not see that Allah created the heavens and the earth with truth? If He please He will take you off and bring a new creation,

[14:20] - And this is not difficult for Allah.

Do you think this is some kind of personal creator? Not at all! Allah is saying something which in Arabic which is blindingly obvious to us in reality; If we do not behave within the system then the system will merely eradicate us as mankind. There is nothing personal, we are merely shapes of truth that the creator is testing out. Many species before us were obliterated. Heard of "dinosaurs", for instance? The God of reality never seemed to find their reptilian rampaging ways as suitable for the Earth's dominance and what do you know, a big fuck off meteor from outer space comes in and takes all the little buggers out.

Rami

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Re: Is God a Man?
« Reply #104 on: May 23, 2010, 05:33:28 AM »
Nice response but here is a nice story from the Quran that goes against your views rather completely. It is the story of Korah. This verses goes as follows;

28:76    Qaroon was from among the people of Moses, but he betrayed them. And We gave him such treasures that the keys thereof were almost too heavy for the strongest person. His people said to him: �Do not glee, for God  does not love the gleeful.�
28:77   �And seek with the provisions bestowed upon you by God the abode of the Hereafter, and do not forget your share in this world, and do good as God has done good to you. And do not seek corruption in the land. God does not love the corrupters.�
28:78   He said: �I have attained all this only because of my own knowledge.� Did he not realize that God had annihilated before him generations that were much stronger than he, and greater in riches? The transgressors were not asked about their crimes.
28:79   Then he came out among his people draped in his ornaments. Those who preferred this worldly life said: �Oh, if only we were given similar to what Qaroon has been given. Indeed, he is very fortunate.�
28:80   And those who were blessed with knowledge said: �Woe to you! The reward from God is far better for those who believe and do good work. And none attains it except the steadfast.�
28:81   We then caused the earth to swallow him and his mansion. He had no group that could protect him against God; nor would he be victorious.
28:82   And those who wished they were in his place the day before said: �Indeed it is God Who provides or restricts for whoever He chooses from among His servants. Had it not been for the grace of God towards us, He could have caused the earth to swallow us as well. We now realize that the rejecters never succeed.�
28:83   Such will be the abode of the Hereafter; We reserve it for those who do not seek prestige on the earth, nor corruption; and the ending will be for the righteous.

How do you understand these verses?

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Re: Is God a Man?
« Reply #105 on: May 23, 2010, 07:51:05 AM »
Nice response but here is a nice story from the Quran that goes against your views rather completely. It is the story of Korah. This verses goes as follows;

28:76    Qaroon was from among the people of Moses, but he betrayed them. And We gave him such treasures that the keys thereof were almost too heavy for the strongest person. His people said to him: �Do not glee, for God  does not love the gleeful.�
28:77   �And seek with the provisions bestowed upon you by God the abode of the Hereafter, and do not forget your share in this world, and do good as God has done good to you. And do not seek corruption in the land. God does not love the corrupters.�
28:78   He said: �I have attained all this only because of my own knowledge.� Did he not realize that God had annihilated before him generations that were much stronger than he, and greater in riches? The transgressors were not asked about their crimes.
28:79   Then he came out among his people draped in his ornaments. Those who preferred this worldly life said: �Oh, if only we were given similar to what Qaroon has been given. Indeed, he is very fortunate.�
28:80   And those who were blessed with knowledge said: �Woe to you! The reward from God is far better for those who believe and do good work. And none attains it except the steadfast.�
28:81   We then caused the earth to swallow him and his mansion. He had no group that could protect him against God; nor would he be victorious.
28:82   And those who wished they were in his place the day before said: �Indeed it is God Who provides or restricts for whoever He chooses from among His servants. Had it not been for the grace of God towards us, He could have caused the earth to swallow us as well. We now realize that the rejecters never succeed.�
28:83   Such will be the abode of the Hereafter; We reserve it for those who do not seek prestige on the earth, nor corruption; and the ending will be for the righteous.

How do you understand these verses?

"We" meaning "the collective", "then" implying that as a result of his statement, this happpened, "caused" meaning that they "made it happen"; the earth to swallow him and his mansion. The answer is simple, the clue is in the last part - "He had no group that could protect him against God".

If I take you near a black hole then I push you past the "event horizon" which is an invisible barrier of no return, it is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for you to escape, it is the law of God. Thus, there is no "group" of any other matter in the universe that could protect you against this. The COLLECTIVE "We" of the universe determines that it is going to CAUSE you to go into the black hole.

And there is no breaking of physical reality therein. Now if you are to ask me "HOW" this occured and demand a 100% honest response from me, then I will have to describe the state of each and every individual particle of the universe and then describe how things unfolded, it isn't within my power to do so, ask the One.

However if you ask me WHY it happened, I can tell you that it happened because you went past the invisible barrier of no return. The same thing applies to Korah. HOW did it happen? The rules of the universe stated that at that point in time, he was due to get swallowed up by the ground, to truth-fully describe HOW would require that one describes all the interactions that occured. However if you ask me WHY it happened, then the answer is merely that Korah was an arrogant prick and he got what was coming to him, he went past the invisible barrier of no return and guess what, he never returned.

And again, there is no breaking of physical reality therein.


The same "We" that CAUSED that effect, is the same "We" that provides us with food, that sends water down on us, that has created us, that has taught us language, that has bestowed shape on us. This "We", in order to provide us with the food must CAUSE the first layer of molecules above the ocean to move in a specific pattern and then CAUSE the next layer of molecules to move in a specific pattern and a couple of trillions of layers of molecules moving in specific patterns later, we finally get all the molecules in the shape of a cloud. The We then CAUSES the next trillion trillion layers of molecules to do this or that and distributes the rain according to a homeostatic balance.

Now do you understand? If you cannot fathom what this "We" is then you never will be able to until the day when the veil is lifted and then it will be of no use. You cannot ignore the presence of the "We" because it is all around you.

The way it works is simple. Allah is the universal whole, the Self, while the "We" refers to the individual snippets of creation that get things done. "Allah" is the creator, the "entity" that assigned those numbers to those fundamental constants; the "We" is from Allah but it is not Allah, because as long as it is a "We" and not "I", it is never Allah. The "We" carries out the orders that "Allah" computes/"decides" at each instance of time. And it works effortlessly, such is the nature of the universe.

One thing that must be understood is that "Allah" is a very busy guy. We arrogantly think that we are the centre of the universe (indeed each and every one of us however is the centre of our personal universe) but the reality is that we are a tiny little speck in the grand scheme of things. Just as a dust mite is a speck to you, Earth is a minute speck to Allah. And a perfectly truthful quran is an even tinier little speck for a perfect being.

If you cannot grasp any of this stuff for yourself and are instead going to question me on and on (don't stop however, I like it :)) then you are behaving like a guy who wakes up unaware that he is wearing a blindfold, who says "I can't see, do you know where my phone is? Ok then, do you know where the light switch is? Ok, sweet, now do you know where the door is, etc". Take off the blindfold and see for yourself.

Disbelievers in "Allah" have constructed the myth that He deviates from the very reality that He himself has constructed, how utterly absurd a notion.

FriskyBun

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Re: Is God a Man?
« Reply #106 on: June 07, 2010, 08:48:02 AM »
Peace, FriskyBun!

I thought I already responded to your post... Anyway, here's my take on your analysis: It is completely speculatory. This idea is extremely important, because it touches on the nature of God Himself. What is He? Where is He? Is He even a "he"?! Those are important questions. Why? Because, in your deification of an infinite idea of Allah, you're worshipping something that you can't even explain or identify. You can't even prove that your god exists, and that's because he doesn't exist - he's just an idea or deific speculation. The only way that the Almighty God can be depicted in reality is if He is a REAL Being. Otherwise, there's no logical explanation why, or how, an unreal entity would interact with real people or compose real books.

Also, you said that there being "none like" God refers to nothing having any of His characteristics or possessing any similarities in relation to His. I think that concept is absurd, to say the least (no offense). For starters, Allah is known as "the best knower"; a 'knower' is one who possesses Knowledge. Therefore, if Allah can't be defined through relative comparisons, then that's like saying that humans can't possess knowledge. Allah is merciful and kind; can't humans possess these qualities too? In fact, these types of attributes can ONLY be expressed by humans, since an abstract idea can't be merciful, gracious, kind, or forgiving. In order for God to express these characteristics on an individual or mass level, He'd have to be a REAL Being, not an abstract concept. For example, gravity is a force in the Universe. However, gravity can't be nice and kind to people. Electricity can't be gracious or merciful. These attributes would have to be expressed by a Person.

Sorry for the late reply. I guess I thought I responded when I really didn't. My apologies... Peace!

Salam Ahmad Bilal,

Thanks for the response.  I should clarify though,  I'm not trying to prove God exists.  That's not my point.  I'm asking you why would you want to visualize Allah when that has a strong likelihood of leading you to commit shirik?  Which is the greatest sin in the Qur'an.  This you have not touched upon.

And just for your info, science isn't about proving something.  It's just the opposite.  It's about trying to disprove something.

Ahmad Bilal

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Re: Is God a Man?
« Reply #107 on: June 10, 2010, 06:24:22 AM »
Peace FriskyBun,

I'm not trying to prove God exists.  That's not my point.  I'm asking you why would you want to visualize Allah when that has a strong likelihood of leading you to commit shirik?  Which is the greatest sin in the Qur'an.  This you have not touched upon.

That argument doesn't make sense. How can you commit "shirk" by visualizing a depiction of Allah? By NOT visualizing this depiction, you're committing "shirk" by worshipping something that you don't even know exists! The worst form of idolatry is worshipping your own ideas. Well, what is God to you? If He's not a physical being, then you're simply worshipping your idea of God, whether that idea is right or wrong. It doesn't mean you're actually worshipping Allah - you're simply prostrating to what you think He is.

And just for your info, science isn't about proving something.  It's just the opposite.  It's about trying to disprove something.

Science is defined as:
1. the systematic observation of natural events and conditions in order to discover facts about them and to formulate laws and principles based on these facts. 2. the organized body of knowledge that is derived from such observations and that can be verified or tested by further investigation. 3. any specific branch of this general body of knowledge, such as biology, physics, geology, or astronomy. (Academic Press Dictionary of Science & Technology)

Science is about 'proving' as much as it's about 'disproving'. In fact, those are parallel ideals - establishing the basis of proof for one idea automatically disproves it's conflicting ideas. Religious people form ideals based on the concept of God, rather than the avenues of reality. A few thousand years ago, they believed that God makes it rain. Today, we know that to be false, and rain is attributed to the water cycle. I still hear people say that they thank their God for waking them up in the morning, even though the scientific explanation for this is the sleep/life cycle (failure to wake up means you're dead). Many Christians STILL claim that God "put" the rainbow in the sky in order to remind humanity that He'll never flood the Earth again! Yet, scientifically, we know that the rainbow is NOT up in the sky; it's a refraction of light manifested by deposited water in the sky, creating a prism... In other words, people use the idea of an all-encompassing, sole-controlling deity to explain things they don't understand, or things they're too lazy to research. 4-5,000 years ago, it was okay to based your ideals on mythology. Today, though, in 2010, it's ridiculous for us to still be attributing natural occurances or phenomena to an invisible man in the sky.

I believe that Allah exists. However, I believe that He is a REAL BEING, not a mythological idea.

Peace!
"The true delight is in the finding out, rather than in the knowing." - Isaac Asimov

the path of light

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Re: Is God a Man?
« Reply #108 on: June 07, 2011, 01:50:21 PM »
but that would contradict Allah being a Limitless being.

such as his 99 attributes.

How can Allah be a man if he is "limitless"? also what Human do you know is Immortal? it is against Science/laws of physics. It is against all Sane Teachings.




Peace, RA786.  I think the answer to this is that when a being is Limitless, that means that same being also has the ability to be a paradox.  To be truly Limitless, you also have to be finite.  I know I'm getting into possibly inane mental masturbation here, so I'll keep this as simple as possible.  If Allah is Limitless, then that entails Allah having the ability to also be Limited (and I'm not sure why I'm capitalizing Limitless and Limited, but I think I'll stay with it).  So of course, Allah can have hands. 

Arm
Leg
Leg
Arm
Head

As for the true and living God, are there any quotes in the Koran about God's kingdom being within (like in the New Testament)? 

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Re: Is God a Man?
« Reply #109 on: July 06, 2011, 03:10:36 PM »

Science is about 'proving' as much as it's about 'disproving'. In fact, those are parallel ideals - establishing the basis of proof for one idea automatically disproves it's conflicting ideas. Religious people form ideals based on the concept of God, rather than the avenues of reality. A few thousand years ago, they believed that God makes it rain. Today, we know that to be false, and rain is attributed to the water cycle. I still hear people say that they thank their God for waking them up in the morning, even though the scientific explanation for this is the sleep/life cycle (failure to wake up means you're dead). Many Christians STILL claim that God "put" the rainbow in the sky in order to remind humanity that He'll never flood the Earth again! Yet, scientifically, we know that the rainbow is NOT up in the sky; it's a refraction of light manifested by deposited water in the sky, creating a prism... In other words, people use the idea of an all-encompassing, sole-controlling deity to explain things they don't understand, or things they're too lazy to research. 4-5,000 years ago, it was okay to based your ideals on mythology. Today, though, in 2010, it's ridiculous for us to still be attributing natural occurances or phenomena to an invisible man in the sky.


I would have to respectfully disagree. If you understand that God is absolute and God has a will (everything follows His will), then you will understand that even the most minute occurrences in life occur because of Allah. The laws of nature and properties of substances/materials are dictated by His will.

God does make it rain. Just because science explains how it rains, that doesn't throw God out of the equation.

With that said, in no way do I believe God truly has hands or does things normal human beings would do. I believe God is incomprehensible, but in His mercy, a way for mankind to not be lost, God uses things we can relate to (messengers, revelations, anthropomorphism) to help us understand the seemingly un-understandable.

The last line of Surah Al-Ikhlas says there is NOTHING equal in comparison to God.