Author Topic: Is God a Man?  (Read 7089 times)

Ahmad Bilal

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Re: Is God a Man?
« Reply #80 on: May 03, 2010, 08:05:09 PM »
Peace Guest,

21:30 – Do the unbelievers not realize that the heavens and the earth used to be one solid mass that we exploded into existence? And from water we made all living things. Would they believe?

We're talking about two completely different things. I'm talking about "heaven" equating to the state of being/mind that one achieves in obedience to Allah. You're talking about the physical sky and/or a place where people go after they die... Allah doesn't live in the sky; He lives in "heaven". The heaven I'm speaking of is within oneself, when one reaches an indivisible closeness with Allah. As the Biblical Jesus said, "The Kingdom of God is within you." The essence of Allah is within all of us, being anthropomorphic because it manifests itself within our own souls. However, the total formation of Allah is anthropomorphic because, in establishing Himself as the ruler on a mighty and exalted throne, He established Himself in "human form" (or He made humans in "God form", in His image)... In other words, Allah has a physical body that looks like ours, but His "spirit" resides in Man, making the original Man the "God on Earth", Allah's khalifa on this plane of existence.

Tell me this: How can Allah be omnipresent (present within everything) if the Qur'aan says that He caused the Universe to explode and divide/separate itself? Does this mean that Allah exploded/imploded Himself? What was present before the heavens and the Earth were joined into one mass? Where exactly was Allah back then?

The Earth as it exists today is NOT a heaven. The Earth is full of chaos, diseases, injustice, ....unlike heaven. Therefore, Earth and Heavens are separate entities.

These verses suggests that our Earth and heavens are separated by a barrier. This is what I am calling domains.

Well, are the heavens (skies) and the Earth separated by a barrier? What is this barrier, and at what point can we cross it? How do you know that those factors, i.e. the ones you named as "earthly", don't exist in the heaven you're talking about? What is "heaven" to one person is oftentimes "hell" to another person.

Peace!
"The true delight is in the finding out, rather than in the knowing." - Isaac Asimov

Ahmad Bilal

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Re: Is God a Man?
« Reply #81 on: May 03, 2010, 08:21:32 PM »
Peace OPF,

God is saying "You WILL not see me. However, look at the mountain. IF that mountain stays in its place THEN you will see me". These statements do not disagree and they are one after other. Is it a waste of words/energy to a God who commands an infinite number of words/energy? Not really. However Moses believes that God is anthropomorphic in some way and clearly not. Look at it from Moses' point of view, he asks the almighty to show himself, the almighty responds in that manner then *BOOM*, Moses is floored and knocked out. He wakes up to a powderised mountain and asks forgiveness of Allah. God can do what the hell he likes, you are asking me "are you more knowledgeable than God" and you are questioning why he put those words in that way in the first place, that is ridiculous and somewhat hypocritical.

I presume that Moses already knows in some way that Allah is not as such but he wants to be sure in the same way that a disbeliever thinks a "sign of God" must be a miracle. Hence the statement worded in such a way and the fact that he asks for repentance. In your lottery analogy, this would be akin to God saying "You cannot play this imaginary number in the REAL lottery. If you would like to see it for yourself, then play the lottery. If your imaginary number comes up, then you win a million dollars". Of course, Moses plays the imaginary number then realises he didn't win a million dollars.

Is this what Allah said, or is this YOUR INTERPRETATION of what the scripture says? What makes you so sure that your idea is correct while mine is wrong?

And again, assuming that Allah has no physical body, your explanation doesn't explain how or why the mountain crumbled. You're saying that Allah said, 'If the mountain remains, then you'll see me,' and then He just destroyed the mountain? What point would that prove to Moses? 'I have no physical body because I can destroy a mountain'?

I am not going to comment on biblical stories just as I care not for ahadeeth. There may be truth in them but I don't believe it is worth trawling through the falsehood.

Allah says to look in the previous scriptures, which include the Bible, if we don't understand something in the Qur'aan. And it just so happens that EVERY scripture in all ancient civilizations describe Allah as being anthropomorphic. All-encompassing, invisible, formless spiritual deities didn't exist until the Grecian period in the development of modern Judaism and Christianity... Enough said.

Either Muhammad was teaching contrary to what the ancient prophets taught, or you have a misunderstanding of the Qur'aan. If both the Qur'aan AND the previous scriptures are correct in their description of God, then those are the only two ways this idea can be understood.

Peace!
"The true delight is in the finding out, rather than in the knowing." - Isaac Asimov

OPF

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Re: Is God a Man?
« Reply #82 on: May 04, 2010, 03:37:36 AM »
Peace OPF,

Is this what Allah said, or is this YOUR INTERPRETATION of what the scripture says? What makes you so sure that your idea is correct while mine is wrong?

The reality is that neither you or I know what is going on behind our heads let alone anything about the bigger picture. So of course it is my interpretation. I cannot ever be 100% sure (or can I!) that either of us is correct. However my interpretation makes more logical sense to me.

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And again, assuming that Allah has no physical body, your explanation doesn't explain how or why the mountain crumbled. You're saying that Allah said, 'If the mountain remains, then you'll see me,' and then He just destroyed the mountain? What point would that prove to Moses? 'I have no physical body because I can destroy a mountain'?

Allah does not have a physical body but he can crumble the mountain. However the concept of "Allah" having a physical body is fundamentally unfalsifiable since the dude cannot be seen! Hence such a question is pointless. Physical body or not, it doesn't matter! So if it works for you to think in that way, then fair enough. However don't let it mislead you. It automatically places limits on your interpretation of scripture and those limits have the power to majorly misguide.

I think that "Allah", physical body or not, can compute things very well. And thing he happens to be very very good at computing is waveforms. You send the right waveform at something, it will crumble by itself (human example: bomb). So do you think Allah who created this whole damn thing lacks this power when we already have a very crude version of it by his grace?

So what makes me so sure? The manner in which Allah "creates" and "speaks", you could translate the "words" to a human equivalent but they are probably vibrations of some incredible complexity which we cannot comprehend (in contrast, our speech is simply a case of air moving back and forth in a certain shape). Also, if Allah is a single anthropomorphic God then why would he use "We" so often in the quran?

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Allah says to look in the previous scriptures, which include the Bible, if we don't understand something in the Qur'aan. And it just so happens that EVERY scripture in all ancient civilizations describe Allah as being anthropomorphic. All-encompassing, invisible, formless spiritual deities didn't exist until the Grecian period in the development of modern Judaism and Christianity... Enough said.

Allah also says to listen to his book first and use them as a criterion. If previous scriptures disagree with the quran then they clearly are not very quranic. And how do you know for sure that every scripture so describes Allah as anthropomorphic? Are you sure it isn't just translation and human preconception of Allah as an anthropomorphic entity?

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Either Muhammad was teaching contrary to what the ancient prophets taught, or you have a misunderstanding of the Qur'aan. If both the Qur'aan AND the previous scriptures are correct in their description of God, then those are the only two ways this idea can be understood.

Peace!

You say "If both the quran and the previous scriptures are correct in their description of God", keyword = IF. I would assume that the previous scriptures WERE correct in their description and the quran, having been preserved is always correct, but the ancient scriptures have been distorted via translations. In 6:91 it is said that the book of Moses has been split apart and some parts have been concealed. The quran in essence states that prior scriptures are correct (word of God, word of man) EXCEPT where they contradict the quran.

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Tell me this: How can Allah be omnipresent (present within everything) if the Qur'aan says that He caused the Universe to explode and divide/separate itself? Does this mean that Allah exploded/imploded Himself? What was present before the heavens and the Earth were joined into one mass? Where exactly was Allah back then?

I would indeed say so! But consider this, in that initial singularity (which I interpret as "Allah", the divine I) there is the potential for an infinite number of configurations of energy. This would make "Allah" all-knowing. This universe we live in is a single set of configurations of that boundless energy, that is to say that for all intents and purposes that singularity has never "split" but rather we exist inside of that singularity and in that particular configuration so we see the splitting. In the quran Allah switches between "I" and "We" but there is not a single instance where the "We" should be an "I" or a "He". When the "I" is invoked then I interpret it to mean the Whole and when the "We" is invoked, this is the individual parts of the greater I doing their thing.

Allah is ALWAYS "everywhere" where "where" and "every" are definable, and Allah is ALWAYS all-knowing where "all" and "knowing" are definable. Consider looking at these "all-X" terms in a logical manner, the paradoxes are very easy to iron out when you realise that each time you have a "paradox" you have made an error in logic/definition somewhere.

With the I/We interpretation, it is only logical that there can be one divine I and no more, no less.

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Re: Is God a Man?
« Reply #83 on: May 04, 2010, 05:57:46 AM »

Another thing is that it is useless to consider hypotheticals. For instance in string theory you get an insane number of "parallel universes" and in the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics you get many worlds (which perhaps is valid but the God is the only entity that sees these "many worlds"). They have one thing in common, they are hypotheticals and inherently lie outside of the boundaries of falsifiability. Yet God says in the quran, use your reasoning and logic when comprehending things, and this means falsifiability is an inherent rule.

Peace OPF,

In my opinion, your approach of understanding God and His system (creation) using falsifiability or refutability is wrong. It is a man made definition and therefore you must analyze its truthfulness and consistency against God's revelation. If it pass this test then accept it.   

For example, "all men are mortal" is unfalsifiable, since no finite amount of observation could ever demonstrate its falsehood: that one or more men can live forever.

From Quran we know that men has body and soul and the soul live forever. Thus men live forever. Otherwise there is no concept of God and accountability. And this is not true. Therefore, we should shun the falsifiable approach or you should rethink about the approach.

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Re: Is God a Man?
« Reply #84 on: May 04, 2010, 06:26:37 AM »
Incorrect. All men are mortal is more than falsifiable. All men have one thing in common, DNA. As we know from past generations, all living things MUST die. To falsify that statement, one would have to prove that in the DNA coding is the ability to adapt to any environmental stimulus concievable, and hence that is immortality. However we already know that DNA stores a finite amount of information far less than enough to encode for every single possible environment. It would require putting this all into the language of abstract mathematics and the equations would be obscene beyond measure but the statement is definitely falsifiable.

The nature of the universe is that ALL statements are in some way falsifiable except for those that talk about things "outside the universe" and that of course, is the very definition of falsifiability. Also most people use this silly notion to justify their belief in clearly falsifiable statements in the first place.

Falsifiability is already in the quran, Allah tells us not to enter into vain discourses about the unseen. Unseen = unfalsifiable.

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Re: Is God a Man?
« Reply #85 on: May 04, 2010, 07:26:28 AM »
Peace AB,

Red lines are AB's quote:

AB: Tell me this: How can Allah be omnipresent (present within everything) if the Qur'aan says that He caused the Universe to explode and divide/separate itself?

He is fully aware of the mass before explosion and fully aware of all the pieces of masses after explosion. Nothing escaped Him.

AB: Does this mean that Allah exploded/imploded Himself?

No, only the solid mass, He is aware of them before and after the explosion.

AB: What was present before the heavens and the Earth were joined into one mass?


Him and His creation e.g. the solid mass for sure, may be more things (opinion)

AB: Where exactly was Allah back then?

Here is the answer from the Quran:

2:255 - GOD: there is no other god besides Him, the Living, the Eternal. Never a moment of unawareness or slumber overtakes Him. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. Who could intercede with Him, except in accordance with His will? He knows their past, and their future. No one attains any knowledge, except as He wills. His dominion encompasses the heavens and the earth, and ruling them never burdens Him. He is the Most High, the Great.

AB: Well, are the heavens (skies) and the Earth separated by a barrier?

Yes, per Quran.

AB: What is this barrier, and at what point can we cross it?

It has already been crossed by Prophet Muhammad with His permission of course.

AB: How do you know that those factors, i.e. the ones you named as "earthly", don't exist in the heaven you're talking about?


Earth type entity does not exist in heaven because it contains injustice, diseases and other horrible things. The God would not tolerate earthly chaos in the heaven.


AB: What is "heaven" to one person is oftentimes "hell" to another person.


This is not Quranic. According to Quran, there are seven heavens and another domain that contain earth. The distinction between heavens and earth very clear in the Quran.

OPF

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Re: Is God a Man?
« Reply #86 on: May 05, 2010, 02:07:40 AM »
Peace AB,
AB: What was present before the heavens and the Earth were joined into one mass?


Him and His creation e.g. the solid mass for sure, may be more things (opinion)


IMO "Allah" is one with his creation (and so he knows us inside out), and what he asks us to be at one with him. An interesting thing is that there is a celestial boundary for our universe (our light cone), we can see around 47 billion light years in each direction but the light from each side has decreased in frequency 4-fold so we know the age of this 96 billion lightyear diameter sphere is merely 13.7 billion years. If Allah is infinite and he is one with his creation then the creation is assuredly infinite.

An interesting consequence of the light cone is that as time goes on, the potential for new creation will increase indefinitely as long as we live in a flat universe (the average density = 0). However the light cone is such that God is eternally the limiting factor; because he lies on the boundary of time itself looking inward, he can modify the rules of space and time even despite the fact that the rules of physics that he has implemented for us are constant, and that is because God is faster than anything else concievable, he is indeed the best of plotters!

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Re: Is God a Man?
« Reply #87 on: May 05, 2010, 04:55:37 AM »
IMO "Allah" is one with his creation (and so he knows us inside out), and what he asks us to be at one with him. An interesting thing is that there is a celestial boundary for our universe (our light cone), we can see around 47 billion light years in each direction but the light from each side has decreased in frequency 4-fold so we know the age of this 96 billion lightyear diameter sphere is merely 13.7 billion years. If Allah is infinite and he is one with his creation then the creation is assuredly infinite.


Peace OPF,

Allah is not at one with His creation. He is the creator and everything else is created. He ask us to worship Him and do good (shun satan).  Allah is Alpha and Omega and we are finite and limited then how can we be at one with Him.  We have a beginning but Allah does not. We are severely limited but not Allah. He creates, we cannot (giving life). He is just, we are not. How can the wicked be at one with Him? You are contradicting yourself.

57:3 - He is the Alpha and the Omega. He is the Outermost and the Innermost. He is fully aware of all things.

29:6 - Those who strive, strive for their own good. GOD is in no need of anyone.

19:67 - Did the human being forget that we created him already, and he was nothing?

How can "nothing" be at one with Him. This makes Allah nothing.

35:16 - If He wills, He can get rid of you and substitute a new creation.

How can something that can be rid off be at one with Him. Are you saying Allah can be rid off?

OPF

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Re: Is God a Man?
« Reply #88 on: May 05, 2010, 08:21:41 AM »
Peace OPF,

Allah is not at one with His creation. He is the creator and everything else is created. He ask us to worship Him and do good (shun satan).  Allah is Alpha and Omega and we are finite and limited then how can we be at one with Him.  We have a beginning but Allah does not. We are severely limited but not Allah. He creates, we cannot (giving life). He is just, we are not. How can the wicked be at one with Him? You are contradicting yourself.

57:3 - He is the Alpha and the Omega. He is the Outermost and the Innermost. He is fully aware of all things.

29:6 - Those who strive, strive for their own good. GOD is in no need of anyone.

19:67 - Did the human being forget that we created him already, and he was nothing?

How can "nothing" be at one with Him. This makes Allah nothing.

35:16 - If He wills, He can get rid of you and substitute a new creation.

How can something that can be rid off be at one with Him. Are you saying Allah can be rid off?

For one, you do not know the creation of Allah, all you see is what "he" lets you see. Keep that in mind, again that is limited by the speed of light and its rules. Do you think you can destroy the universe or create anything within it? Indeed we have no power whatsoever to destroy energy (a fundamental law of the universe is conservation of information hence aspects of physics are analogous to information theory).

As for 19:67 look at the statement. There was no such creation as a "human being" up until a couple of million years ago. However all his energy was still there, just not in that shape (in the materials that were used to create Earth).

How can God be the Alpha and the Omega, and also the Outermost and Innermost? God is simply the first and last event in space and time, time only goes on for eternity. God also lies on the boundary of everything, "he" encompasses it all. Remember that "he" is the knower of the seen and unseen (59:22 and 59:24). Keep in mind that there is no such thing as an "absolute time", the only time is "now" and this is mediated by the constancy of the speed of light. Wherever you are in the universe and however fast you are going relative to something else, light is always faster than you.

Rami

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Re: Is God a Man?
« Reply #89 on: May 05, 2010, 07:13:17 PM »
Peace,

Maybe God is formed of dark matter which scientists claim that it is holding the universe together and without it the universe will fade away, that is interestingly the same description of what God is doing in the Quran. Could it be what Moses saw is a matter/antimatter annihilation reaction when God approached the mountain?

Is God extremely dark but when he removes the barrier react with matter and become luminescent? Physics of antimatter could be different which could explain the mysteriousness of God.

Just a thought.