Author Topic: Is God a Man?  (Read 7083 times)

OPF

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Re: Is God a Man?
« Reply #70 on: May 01, 2010, 06:54:43 AM »
Peace Rami,

I agree wholeheartedly with what you say here. However you are now merely arguing semantics. Real does not mean relative in any way shape or form. The rule of physics is very REAL, indeed as REAL as it gets, but there is nothing "relative". It is absolute in very way concievable yet it does indeed create everything and it does supposedly send messengers, it does destroy things, you get the picture. You don't need to look at it from a human perspective to understand this. It created life before man was not worth mentioning (whether deterministically or not, that is completely irrelevant since the concept of free will does not even enter at this point).

Check out my response here, this is my conception of God as an "it" which is 100% in line with the quran and reality in my current mode of thinking.

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He's everywhere. That's like me saying, "If you play this number in the lottery, then you'll win one million dollars!" That statement would be completely nonsensical if there was no real lottery, or if there was no way you could possibly win it. In order for Allah's statement to make sense, there would've had to have been some chance, however slight, that Moses could actually see God in a physical form.

The statement immediately converts to "you shall never see me" when you apply the rules of reality, how hard is it to comprehend this?

Ahmad Bilal

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Re: Is God a Man?
« Reply #71 on: May 01, 2010, 09:42:30 AM »
Peace OPF,

The statement immediately converts to "you shall never see me" when you apply the rules of reality, how hard is it to comprehend this?

Again, that concept is nonsensical. Why would Allah say, 'If this happens, then you'll see me,' if there's no possible way that Moses could see Him at all? That sounds pretty paradoxical to me, as well as implying a tremendous waste of words and energy. He may as well have just stuck with the "you can't see me" statement, since it makes a lot more sense based on what you're saying. Are you more knowledgeable that God?

By the way, the Qur'aanic story is strikingly similar to the Biblical story of Moses requesting to see Allah's face, and he was told that one can't see God's face and live. As an alternative, Allah showed Himself to a mountain, causing it to crumble, and He 'went past Moses', to the point of Moses seeing His "back". His back! What's God doing with a "BACK" if He doesn't have a front, or a physical composition at all?

It's not just the Qur'aan that forms that type of anthropomorphic presentation of Allah; it's the Bible too! In fact, all the ancient scriptures depicted the Almighty Supreme Being as having a physical body, even to the point of the Kabbalists making the statement, "Man is God on Earth, and God is Man in Heaven." These aren't symbolic or (metaphorically) metaphysical depictions; they're literal, physical descriptions of Allah, presented as having human-like features. The ancient people weren't confused on this issue, so why are you? Hell, the most adamant Islamic disputers of Allah's physicality that I've encountered are Sunni Muslims, and even they've been forced to acknowledge the parts of the hadiyths that speak of humans, in the hereafter, seeing Allah's "THIGH". At the very least, this shows that earlier Muslims, during the time of the hadiyth collections, believed that Allah had some type of physical form that included 'thighs'. The Wahhabi Muslims are at least on a realistic stance, confirming that Allah indeed has a physical body; but He is either too powerful for us to see with our physical eyes, or He is so far away from us (on the physical plane) that we can't detect Him. Either way, God's state of being "anthropomorphic" is without question. If you study the scriptures intently, then you will come to the same conclusion.

Peace!
"The true delight is in the finding out, rather than in the knowing." - Isaac Asimov

OPF

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Re: Is God a Man?
« Reply #72 on: May 01, 2010, 11:25:14 AM »
Peace OPF,

Again, that concept is nonsensical. Why would Allah say, 'If this happens, then you'll see me,' if there's no possible way that Moses could see Him at all? That sounds pretty paradoxical to me, as well as implying a tremendous waste of words and energy. He may as well have just stuck with the "you can't see me" statement, since it makes a lot more sense based on what you're saying. Are you more knowledgeable that God?

Peace,

God is saying "You WILL not see me. However, look at the mountain. IF that mountain stays in its place THEN you will see me". These statements do not disagree and they are one after other. Is it a waste of words/energy to a God who commands an infinite number of words/energy? Not really. However Moses believes that God is anthropomorphic in some way and clearly not. Look at it from Moses' point of view, he asks the almighty to show himself, the almighty responds in that manner then *BOOM*, Moses is floored and knocked out. He wakes up to a powderised mountain and asks forgiveness of Allah. God can do what the hell he likes, you are asking me "are you more knowledgeable than God" and you are questioning why he put those words in that way in the first place, that is ridiculous and somewhat hypocritical.

I presume that Moses already knows in some way that Allah is not as such but he wants to be sure in the same way that a disbeliever thinks a "sign of God" must be a miracle. Hence the statement worded in such a way and the fact that he asks for repentance. In your lottery analogy, this would be akin to God saying "You cannot play this imaginary number in the REAL lottery. If you would like to see it for yourself, then play the lottery. If your imaginary number comes up, then you win a million dollars". Of course, Moses plays the imaginary number then realises he didn't win a million dollars.

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By the way, the Qur'aanic story is strikingly similar to the Biblical story of Moses requesting to see Allah's face, and he was told that one can't see God's face and live. As an alternative, Allah showed Himself to a mountain, causing it to crumble, and He 'went past Moses', to the point of Moses seeing His "back". His back! What's God doing with a "BACK" if He doesn't have a front, or a physical composition at all?

I am not going to comment on biblical stories just as I care not for ahadeeth. There may be truth in them but I don't believe it is worth trawling through the falsehood.

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It's not just the Qur'aan that forms that type of anthropomorphic presentation of Allah; it's the Bible too! In fact, all the ancient scriptures depicted the Almighty Supreme Being as having a physical body, even to the point of the Kabbalists making the statement, "Man is God on Earth, and God is Man in Heaven." These aren't symbolic or (metaphorically) metaphysical depictions; they're literal, physical descriptions of Allah, presented as having human-like features. The ancient people weren't confused on this issue, so why are you? Hell, the most adamant Islamic disputers of Allah's physicality that I've encountered are Sunni Muslims, and even they've been forced to acknowledge the parts of the hadiyths that speak of humans, in the hereafter, seeing Allah's "THIGH". At the very least, this shows that earlier Muslims, during the time of the hadiyth collections, believed that Allah had some type of physical form that included 'thighs'. The Wahhabi Muslims are at least on a realistic stance, confirming that Allah indeed has a physical body; but He is either too powerful for us to see with our physical eyes, or He is so far away from us (on the physical plane) that we can't detect Him. Either way, God's state of being "anthropomorphic" is without question. If you study the scriptures intently, then you will come to the same conclusion.

Peace!

That does not mean that an anthropomorphic deity is what exists in reality. Nor does it mean that ancient scriptures are interpreted correctly. Check out my post here as stated (http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600468.msg248924#msg248924).

jaythikay99

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Re: Is God a Man?
« Reply #73 on: May 01, 2010, 11:31:17 AM »
Peace,

God is saying "You WILL not see me. However, look at the mountain. IF that mountain stays in its place THEN you will see me". These statements do not disagree and they are one after other. Is it a waste of words/energy to a God who commands an infinite number of words/energy? Not really. However Moses believes that God is anthropomorphic in some way and clearly not. Look at it from Moses' point of view, he asks the almighty to show himself, the almighty responds in that manner then *BOOM*, Moses is floored and knocked out. He wakes up to a powderised mountain and asks forgiveness of Allah. God can do what the hell he likes, you are asking me "are you more knowledgeable than God" and you are questioning why he put those words in that way in the first place, that is ridiculous and somewhat hypocritical.


its just that, for some reasons, God didn't want Moses to see Him! otherwise it is not difficult for God to make anyone able to see Him!

guest

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Re: Is God a Man?
« Reply #74 on: May 01, 2010, 11:56:23 AM »
Peace Guest,

You are forming this conclusion based on a preconceived notion. In reality, you are GUESSING; you are not speaking from the bounds of "TRUTH" because you don't KNOW if your position is right or wrong... Here's something to reason on: Assumptions do NOT equal facts. You're comparing His world to our world, when, in reality, they are the same thing.

Peace!

Peace AB,

The Earth as it exists today is NOT a heaven. The Earth is full of chaos, diseases, injustice, ....unlike heaven. Therefore, Earth and Heavens are separate entities.

My position on domains is supported by the following Quranic verses:

55:33 - O you jinns and humans, if you can penetrate the outer limits of the heavens and the earth, go ahead and penetrate. You cannot penetrate without authorization.

55:35 - You get bombarded with projectiles of fire and metal, and you cannot win.

37:8 - They cannot spy on the High Society; they get bombarded from every side.

72:9 - " `We used to sit there in order to spy. Anyone who listens is pursued by a powerful projectile.

These verses suggests that our Earth and heavens are separated by a barrier. This is what I am calling domains.

The concept of single domain gives rise to severe conflicts and contradiction. I need time to put my thought together on this issue.

I need to ponder how the below verse relates to the two domain theory

55:17 - Lord of the two easts and the two wests.

I think the below two verses may apply to the subject as well.

1:2 - Praise be to God, the Lord of the worlds.

2:3 - who believe in the unseen, observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), and from our provisions to them, they give to charity.

That's all for now.

shadowpuppet

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Re: Is God a Man?
« Reply #75 on: May 01, 2010, 09:13:49 PM »
I invite and encourage everyone in this forum to go and read the Tao Te Qing...
(with a mind not open to hostility, and remembering that the Dalai Lama was once formally escorted by Muslims)
...and then go back and read your Quran.


Just for kicks?
 ???










TheNabi

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Re: Is God a Man?
« Reply #76 on: May 01, 2010, 11:36:09 PM »
Maybe you can read it to us, just for kicks?

Joe
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek for verification & knowledge. ~> [3/190-191; 17/36; 20/114; 35/28; 49/6; 58/11; 67/10]

shadowpuppet

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Re: Is God a Man?
« Reply #77 on: May 01, 2010, 11:47:00 PM »
Looks like Jafar is already on it.

guest

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Re: Is God a Man?
« Reply #78 on: May 02, 2010, 09:42:07 AM »
Peace AB, here are some more thoughts on the subject.

Quote from AB: “You're comparing His world to our world, when, in reality, they are the same thing.”

21:30 – Do the unbelievers not realize that the heavens and the earth used to be one solid mass that we exploded into existence? And from water we made all living things. Would they believe?

This verse clearly explains that the God was outside the domain of heavens and earth when He initiated the creation of heavens and earth. This is a necessary condition in order to be the creator of heavens and earth This negates the “same thing” or the one domain understanding. Just like we exist in the earthly domain, therefore, we could not have created the earth. This is the conflict and contradiction I mentioned in my previous post on this thread. In my opinion, the first domain consist of seven heavens and the second domains is the earth. I have no knowledge of why and how He exists in the original domain. From reasoning I accept  He exist. He is able to go from one domain to another domain but we cannot do that without His permission. According to the Quran, after creation of heaven and earth, He established His throne in the first domain (7 heavens) i.e. He moved from the original domain and eliminated the barrier between original and the first domain. I thank Him for creating me and giving me the knowledge to reason. I glorify Him day and night to the extent I can and I submit myself to Him.

Since the God created the heavens and earth, He is in total control of everything in them. He is fully aware of everything that exist in these domains. There is no escape from them nor can we hide from Him. That's why He has the attribute of omnipresence. If we were able to hide from Him (on earth or in the space) then we don't have to worship Him.

Quote from AB: “If you want to base your interpretation of this subject as being factual, then show us the place in the Qur'aan where it says that Allah has "metaphorical hands", "metaphorical eyes", a "metaphorical back", or any other metaphorical body parts. If you can't do this, then there's no way you can prove that the physical composition of Allah, as described in the Qur'aan, is not literal.”

I am not at liberty to equate human hands to the God's hands because that's makes Him relative and not absolute which violates verse 112:2 – The Absolute God. They are different.

Quote from AB: “Again, that is a paradoxical argument. If Allah is omnipresent, then what caused the mountain to crumble? In reality, mountains don't just crumble without explanation. There are a few reasons why the mountain may have crumbled, based on the implications in the Qur'aan, but all of them imply Him being a REAL BEING, possessing a physical body of some sort. I don't know how you reached the conclusion of: "THIS MEANS GOD IS OMNIPRESENT." But your argument doesn't imply Allah's omnipresence at all; in fact, it doesn't even imply His omniscience, since, based on His statement of 'if this happens, then this will happen,' (i.e. 'if the mountain can stand it, then you can see me') then it appears as if He doesn't actually know whether or not Moses will be able see Him. Plus, it produces another major paradox. Why would Allah say that if the mountain remains, then Moses can SEE Him? That is a pointless statement if God is not a physical reality and/or if He's omnipresent, since it would be physically impossible for anybody to see (or detect) Allah, since He's everywhere. That's like me saying, "If you play this number in the lottery, then you'll win one million dollars!" That statement would be completely nonsensical if there was no real lottery, or if there was no way you could possibly win it. In order for Allah's statement to make sense, there would've had to have been some chance, however slight, that Moses could actually see God in a physical form.”

On earth physical body implies severe limitation. That's why I will not assign physical attribute to the God. The main point of the verse in question is that the God did not materialized (IF .. THEN conditional statement shows this clearly). Thus there is no physical form of God as we understand it. The God told Moses that he cannot see Him because there is no earthly form that can depict Him. It is reasonable to say that Moses made an unreasonable demand. But since Moses is an obedient servant of God, the God did not say no to his request ought-right. In past the God honored similar request of Abraham  (giving life e.g. birds) and Jesus (meal from heaven). The God already told Moses that he cannot see Him i.e. the God knew the outcome.

OPF

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Re: Is God a Man?
« Reply #79 on: May 03, 2010, 05:34:41 AM »
Actually I presume that in the arabic itself the terminology is such that the universe was one BEFORE (as Yusuf Ali translates) God now acting as the We-ness split them apart. In the second "instant" of time, God changes from an I-ness to a We-ness so it is completely valid that the term "We" is used. The entity that was there "before" is God in all his glory, the I-ness/oneness, completely incomprehensible to us mortals. There is therefore no negation of the "one domain" understanding.

Another thing is that it is useless to consider hypotheticals. For instance in string theory you get an insane number of "parallel universes" and in the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics you get many worlds (which perhaps is valid but the God is the only entity that sees these "many worlds"). They have one thing in common, they are hypotheticals and inherently lie outside of the boundaries of falsifiability. Yet God says in the quran, use your reasoning and logic when comprehending things, and this means falsifiability is an inherent rule.