How sex before Marriage is not haram (prohibited) according to the Quran

[progressive1993]

Sorry Sir but I beg to differ. It all depends on the definition of commitment. What do you mean when you say commitment.

I think you are defining commitment as an emotional debt. But then again, it is not impossible to hurt a prostitute's feelings by not paying him/her after their service. And obviously I also do not agree that "commitment" is absent from services based on money.

He pays, they have sex. She goes on to the next client. He goes on to then next prostitute. That's it. What oath/commitment do you see in that? The "hurting feelings" argument is weak. Usually payment is upfront, and, if not, then I would assume that more than mere "feelings are hurt".

There has to be an oath/commitment in the relationship that makes it long-term and that involves, care/love and loyalty towards one another, as explained quite a few times in this thread by various people.

Also, I am assuming you are taking back your earlier points about marriage?

[Bigmo]

Shalom Aleikhem,

I guess that depends on your understanding of "oath". If you think about it, there is a sense of oath/commitment between a prostitute and his/her client. Ofcourse both would feel betrayed if the other one betrays.

By the way, I have not read your views on the topic of the thread. I am just commenting on this specific post I quoted.


Peace
------------ Student of Allah

So its a financial arrangement and not an emotional or sexual one. The verses about MMA was dealing with sexual arrangement and it specifically said that the arrangement should not be based on lust alone.

MMA is not a boyfriend grifriend arrangement anyways, its a urfi marriage. A concubinage arrangement. But I define Zina as being betrayal. So the boyfriend and grilfriend arrangement is applicable for Zina. That is cheating here is Zina.

[Student of Allah]

He pays, they have sex. She goes on to the next client. He goes on to then next prostitute. That's it. What oath/commitment do you see in that? The "hurting feelings" argument is weak. Usually payment is upfront, and, if not, then I would assume that more than mere "feelings are hurt".

There has to be an oath/commitment in the relationship that makes it long-term and that involves, care/love and loyalty towards one another, as explained quite a few times in this thread by various people.

Also, I am assuming you are taking back your earlier points about marriage?

Shalom Aleikhem,


Ohh.. so we are talking about long term commitment. Well, one could argue about being a sugar daddy What is care/love for you may not be the same for me. Regardless, as I stated in my previous posts, I am only playing around with words and their meanings and our perception. Nothing serious.

What point did I make earlier about marriage ? Sorry, cant remember. Would you mind quoting what you are referring to ?

So its a financial arrangement and not an emotional or sexual one. The verses about MMA was dealing with sexual arrangement and it specifically said that the arrangement should not be based on lust alone.

MMA is not a boyfriend grifriend arrangement anyways, its a urfi marriage. A concubinage arrangement. But I define Zina as being betrayal. So the boyfriend and grilfriend arrangement is applicable for Zina. That is cheating here is Zina.

I understood your point


Peace
------------- Student of Allah

[nimnimak_11]

Peace Bigmo

I'm sorry for the late replys. It's been the last few days of my degree and i've been busy with saying goodbyes and packing stuff to return home. I'm home now and should have more time.

The verse starts by saying for those who can not marry the fatiyat. So the rest of the verse must be talking about the alternative, which is MMA.

4:25    And whoever of you cannot afford to marry the independent female believers, then from those maintained by your oaths of the believing young women. And God is more aware of your faith, some of you to each other. You shall marry them with the permission of their parents and give them their dowries in kindness; to be independent, not for illicit sex or taking lovers. When they become independent, then any of them who come with lewdness shall have half of what is the punishment for those independent. This is for those who are concerned about deviating from among you. But if you are patient it is better for you, and God is Forgiver, Merciful.

I'm not good with Arabic but going by the free-minds translation and also a look on corpus suggests that those who can't marry the muhsinat, should marry the fataya that are of MMA. Which implies that both the muhsinat and the fatayat must be of MMA before being permissible for marriage.

If we take the previous scriptures, then we have concubines along side wives. For me its a best way to understand these verses althought not perfect. I could be wrong of course.

Could this work with the idea that before marrying the muhsinat and the fatayat, they must first become a concubine?

[nimnimak_11]

Salam nimnimak

My understanding of the matter is that you can only have sex with spouses and MMA, as the Quran mentions that we should guard our genitalia from anyone except spouses (which can be boy/girlfriends, husbands/wives, concubines, lovers etc.) and MMA.

What I don't understand is how do you think a one night stand is allowed? Do you consider the partner in a one night stand as a spouse?

Salam Red

Sorry for the late reply

From a rational perspective, I no longer agree with the idea of a one night stand but from a Quranic perspective (as far as I  understand now) so long as there is an oath between the two in the one night stand, then it's ok but there is something that i discovered recently which complicates things. I'l post it at the end of these replys.

[nimnimak_11]

Excuse me?! Say what?? I think everyone here can agree that the above is absolute nonsense. There is no love/commitment in a "relationship" between a prostitute and someone who uses/pays for this service. There is no oath/commitment involved - it is merely a service.

Yes I agree that there is no love commitment, but is that necessary? There is still an oath and the service may be deemed acceptable in light of the Quran. As in its not punishable perhaps. My understanding is that so long as there is a mutual agreement, and that the mutual agreement is not transgressive or constitute lewdness, then its ok. Some would view prostitution as lewd, others may not.

[nimnimak_11]

So its a financial arrangement and not an emotional or sexual one. The verses about MMA was dealing with sexual arrangement and it specifically said that the arrangement should not be based on lust alone.

Which verse was this?

[nimnimak_11]

Another verse to consider is

2:237: And if ye divorce them before tamassūhunna, but after the fixation of a dower for them, then the half of the dower (Is due to them), unless they remit it or (the man's half) is remitted by him in whose hands is the marriage tie; and the remission (of the man's half) is the nearest to righteousness. And do not forget Liberality between yourselves. For Allah sees well all that ye do.

The root of tamassuhunna:

Miim-Siin-Siin = To meet or touch or feel a thing with the hand, touch a thing without intervention or interference, strike or smite, afflict or befall, be distressing or difficult of accomplishment.
You might wanna check out the following links for more details on the potential meanings of this root:

http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume7/00000239.pdf

http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume7/00000240.pdf

One argument for sex being exclusive to marriage is perhaps 2:237 and the use of the word tamassuhunna. If the word means touch, then we need to determine what kind of touch is being talked about here. It would be highly unreasonable to think that any sort of physical contact is constituted as tamassuhunna in the context of 2:237. Here is a cross-reference of the term in the Quran:

http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=mss#(2:237:6)

In 3:47 it is clear that Mary is referring to the sort of touch that potentially leads to a child:
“She said: "My Lord, how can I have a son when no human being has been with me?" He said: "It is thus that God creates what
He wills, when He decrees a command, He merely says to it 'Be,' and it is.””

Thus from this we might say that in 2:237, tamassuhunna refers to the sort of touch that leads to a child. This means unprotected sex. However since protected sex does not 100 percent guarantee to prevent potential pregnancies and is thus not 100 percent protection, then it must be the case that it is not a sufficient measure.

So it might be argued that whilst we can unguard our private parts to MMAs, there is a limit put on us by 2:237
But 2:237 does not appear to prohibit sex with MMA. It suggests that when there is a marriage contract, the following laws must be in place. This does not encompass, MMA as far as i can see but its worth consideration.

[357]

It is worth looking at some translations of the word MMA; Please see the translations of Asad & Shabir;

Edip-Layth 70:30 Except around their spouses or those committed to by oath, there is no blame.

The Monotheist Group 70:30 Except around their spouses or those committed to by oath, there is no blame

Muhammad Asad 70:30 [not giving way to their desires] with any but their spouses - that is, those whom they rightfully possess [through wedlock] - :13 for then, behold, they are free of all blame,

Shabbir Ahmed 70:30 They have intimate relations only with their spouses - that is, those who are rightfully theirs through wedlock. For such relationship they are free of blame. 4


The MMA's are your legal wives , not women for use and dispose of or rather not take any responsibility for.

 

[Bigmo]

Which verse was this?

4.25. If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed chaste believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess: And Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another: Wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dowers, according to what is reasonable: They should be chaste, not lustful, nor taking paramours: when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, their punishment is half that for free women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practise self-restraint. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.