Idribuhunna & Adriba Anhunna-to pull the wool over non Arabic speakers

[guest]

When discussing verse 4:34 the following assumption and/or pre-condition must be met:

1. Allah is addressing the believers. Therefore, this law is for the believers only
2. Believers are righteous and conform to will of Allah i.e. no free will
3. This law does not apply to anyone other than the believers

Situation: What is a believer to do when the wife has gone bad and causing havoc in the family?  Please remember the family could have mature male and female children. Say the wife is doing drug, sex,…. in the presence of the children i.e. in the house when the husband is not there.

Say the husband decided to divorce her. Because he is a believer he has to comply with 2:226 - Those who intend to divorce their wives shall wait four months (cooling off); if they change their minds and reconcile, then GOD is Forgiver, Merciful.

During this period the believing husband can beat the wife if she is exposing the children to drugs, illegal sex, etc. after other conditions in the verse are met. This makes sense. She can of course leave the husband to avoid beating and for the good of the family. Please remember that this privilege is granted to the believer only. This is similar to whipping a female in case of adultery.  Also one would rightfully shoot a female soldier in a battlefield.

Everybody is not cutout to be a believer. Most people shun God’s law in favor of manmade law. Thus you will find many compromising Allah’s law by introducing different meaning that suits their desire. Be aware of them!

Peace.

[Wakas]

guest, your view is exposed on www.Quran434.com

I strongly recommend you read it.

[Noon de Plume]

When discussing verse 4:34 the following assumption and/or pre-condition must be met:

1. Allah is addressing the believers. Therefore, this law is for the believers only
2. Believers are righteous and conform to will of Allah i.e. no free will
3. This law does not apply to anyone other than the believers

1.   Anyone who agrees with it (i.e. definition of a believer)
2.   All are free to "agree or disagree" with whatever circumstance
3.   1 & 2

Situation: What is a believer to do when the wife has gone bad and causing havoc in the family?  Please remember the family could have mature male and female children. Say the wife is doing drug, sex,…. in the presence of the children i.e. in the house when the husband is not there.

Perhaps dysfunctional family should apply to go on Jerry Springer.

Say the husband decided to divorce her. Because he is a believer he has to comply with 2:226 - Those who intend to divorce their wives shall wait four months (cooling off); if they change their minds and reconcile, then GOD is Forgiver, Merciful.

No, 2:226 is about making careless oats …
http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=2&verse=226

During this period the believing husband can beat the wife if she is exposing the children to drugs, illegal sex, etc. after other conditions in the verse are met. This makes sense. She can of course leave the husband to avoid beating and for the good of the family. Please remember that this privilege is granted to the believer only. This is similar to whipping a female in case of adultery.  Also one would rightfully shoot a female soldier in a battlefield.

No, interpretation by insensitive narcissists who lack empathy especially toward women fantasying them all as prostitutes craving sex, drugs, and other fetishes with older children projecting their inner desire and are aroused by it.

Everybody is not cutout to be a believer. Most people shun God’s law in favor of manmade law. Thus you will find many compromising Allah’s law by introducing different meaning that suits their desire. Be aware of them!

Yes, the self righteous “tell” is easy to spot.


Peace

[guest]

guest, your view is exposed on www.Quran434.com

I strongly recommend you read it.

Peace Wakas,

I went to your recommended website but found nothing of use. If you wish to comment on what I wrote, you are welcomed to do so. Thanks.

[Wakas]

peace guest,

Yes, I will choose to comment, to expose your completely made-up view more clearly:

You seems to suggest exposing bad acts (e.g. illegal sex, drugs etc) to children in the family, even though the verse says nothing about children, thus tell us what is the situation for when a family has no children?

And does your punishment of beating still apply when there is children but the wife does not expose such acts to them, hence the use of "al gayb/unseen/private"?

Once you answer these, then we can see if your view is even more problematic, or not 

[guest]

peace guest,

Yes, I will choose to comment, to expose your completely made-up view more clearly:

You seems to suggest exposing bad acts (e.g. illegal sex, drugs etc) to children in the family, even though the verse says nothing about children, thus tell us what is the situation for when a family has no children?

And does your punishment of beating still apply when there is children but the wife does not expose such acts to them, hence the use of "al gayb/unseen/private"?

Once you answer these, then we can see if your view is even more problematic, or not 

Peace Wakas,

Children or no children the punishment is the same for performing a bad conduct (ill-conduct). The consequence of not punishing implies a serious blow to the family, neighbors, and society in general. And remember that the punishment is inflicted by a believer, therefore, it will be just, fair, and compliant with Allah’s law. Also know that the bad situation can last at most 4 months. 

We don’t have a law to deal with unseen event. In this case the judgment rest with Allah.

[Mazhar]

When discussing verse 4:34 the following assumption and/or pre-condition must be met:

1. Allah is addressing the believers. Therefore, this law is for the believers only
2. Believers are righteous and conform to will of Allah i.e. no free will
3. This law does not apply to anyone other than the believers

Situation: What is a believer to do when the wife has gone bad and causing havoc in the family?  Please remember the family could have mature male and female children. Say the wife is doing drug, sex,…. in the presence of the children i.e. in the house when the husband is not there.

Say the husband decided to divorce her. Because he is a believer he has to comply with 2:226 - Those who intend to divorce their wives shall wait four months (cooling off); if they change their minds and reconcile, then GOD is Forgiver, Merciful.

During this period the believing husband can beat the wife if she is exposing the children to drugs, illegal sex, etc. after other conditions in the verse are met. This makes sense.

The problem seems that without having properly read the verses, sense is being found on different hypothetical prepositions.

2:226 has nothing to do with those husbands who have decided to divorce and wives shall wait for four months. It is for those married men who have taken an oath at their own not to have sex relations with their wives, their decision is being subjected to a time frame so that it is not left to their discretion not to have matrimonial relationship with wives for indefinite period. A conditionality of four months is imposed during which they have to either restore the relationship whereat he will find Allah forgiving, and if by imposition of time frame they have firmly decided to divorce their wives then in that case Allah is the listener and knower of even internal intentions and designs. Now the matter is to be adjudged on merit between two parties, without inclination of mercy for anyside.

[Wakas]

peace guest,

Thanks for answering, but you contradict yourself, so we will have to clarify again:

Children or no children the punishment is the same for performing a bad conduct (ill-conduct).

is not compatible with:

We don’t have a law to deal with unseen event. In this case the judgment rest with Allah.

Which one is it: punish or leave judgement to Allah?

[guest]

peace guest,

Thanks for answering, but you contradict yourself, so we will have to clarify again:

is not compatible with:


Which one is it: punish or leave judgement to Allah?

Peace Wakas,

If the husband walks in while she is committing ill-conduct or have eyewitness testimonies, then the punishment is imposed. Also, she could be committing the ill-conduct openly in front of her husband.

Otherwise the judgment rest with Allah.

[Leyna]

During this period the believing husband can beat the wife if she is exposing the children to drugs, illegal sex, etc. after other conditions in the verse are met. This makes sense.

What if it's the husband exposing the children to drugs, illegal sex etc.? Can she also beat him in this case? Does this make sense?

[Wakas]

peace guest,

If the husband walks in while she is committing ill-conduct or have eyewitness testimonies, then the punishment is imposed. Also, she could be committing the ill-conduct openly in front of her husband.

Otherwise the judgment rest with Allah.

Unfortunately your position contradicts The Quran. Firstly, it says "if you fear" NOT "if you see/prove" etc. It is a suspicion. Even though your view disregards the Arabic of Quran, we can also refute it another way:

You seem to suggest the following:
husband walks in and catches her in the act ---> administers punishment
has eyewitness testimonies ---> administers punishment

BUT the above would contradict The Quran's ruling. Taken from Quran434.com

If it is only the husband who fears disloyalty/uprising/infidelity, or even if he is sure of it, and if there are no witnesses/evidence, then he must follow the procedure in 24:6-9 and cannot take it upon himself to administer any punishment. Since a "fear/suspicion", as in 4:34, is certainly less than being sure, it also cannot warrant any punishment. Anything to the contrary would be an internal inconsistency in The Quran's ruling.
If we imagine a real life scenario in which a husband thinks his wife is guilty of disloyalty/infidelity and therefore undergoes the steps in 4:34, as traditionally understood, then before the wife is "hit/beat" she simply needs to say "let's go to court and apply 24:6-9 to your accusation" to which the husband would be dumbfounded as he is allegedly allowed to "beat" her yet according to 24:6-9 his accusation would be rejected by the court! Thus giving us the ridiculous situation of a wife being legally vindicated of her husband's accusation yet is still allowed to be punished by her husband! There is no escaping this obvious contradiction in the traditional understanding.

Thus, are you arguing that even though the Islamic/Quranic court rejects the husband's claim, he is still allowed to punish her?

[guest]

peace guest,
Unfortunately your position contradicts The Quran. Firstly, it says "if you fear" NOT "if you see/prove" etc. It is a suspicion. Even though your view disregards the Arabic of Quran, we can also refute it another way:

You seem to suggest the following:
husband walks in and catches her in the act ---> administers punishment
has eyewitness testimonies ---> administers punishment

BUT the above would contradict The Quran's ruling. Taken from Quran434.com

Thus, are you arguing that even though the Islamic/Quranic court rejects the husband's claim, he is still allowed to punish her?

Peace Wakas,

A condition, say X is satisfied by the women which leads to admonishment

The condition X is repeated by the women which leads to not sharing her bed

 The condition X is repeated the third time by the women which leads to beating

Are you implying that there exist no such condition X. If this is the case then Quranic statement is redundant and thus Allah is at err.

[guest]

What if it's the husband exposing the children to drugs, illegal sex etc.? Can she also beat him in this case? Does this make sense?

Peace Leyna,

Please note that the husband is a believer and not just any husband.

Allah did not instruct women to beat her husband in this hypothetical case. The question is why such punishment does not exist in the Quran?

Maybe a male believer would never do such ill-conduct.

I believe a women believer would never do such ill-conduct either.

That leaves the case of a male believer married to non-believer women. I believe this is the case Allah is addressing in the verse.

A women believer is not authorized to marry a non-believer man. I haven't done extensive research on it but I think I am right. Please correct me if I am wrong. Thank you.

[Wakas]

peace guest,

X is NOT satisfied by the women. She may be doing X, she may not be, it is a fear of the husband NOT proven.

The Quran covers all situations, when bad acts are provable, and also unproven (4:34), and how we should go about it to resolve such a situation.

Please just answer my questions and dont evade:

1) Does it say "if you fear": yes or no?

2) Are you arguing that even though the Islamic/Quranic court would reject the husband's claim, he is still allowed to punish her? yes or no?

[Ayisha]

so he can beat her if he fears she may do whatever?

Her husband can beat her if he so much as fears she will commit whatever, lets say adultery, then that doesnt match the lashing for adultery or the 4 witnesses does it? Unless her husband can beat her for fearing she will do it, then 4 witnesses are needed if she did it and she gets a lashing too. They dont even bother with the witnesses these days so hubby gives her a pasting then she gets lashed  and if shes in Iraq or any of the other 'oh so pious' countries she gets stoned to death as well?

I cant believe God hates women so much to be placing all this punishment on them for the husband/god just to do as he pleases, it doesnt match anything else in Quran.