Author Topic: Jesus VS Isa  (Read 19266 times)

Ayisha

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Re: Jesus VS Isa
« Reply #100 on: March 09, 2012, 04:14:22 PM »
salaam,

really like your avatar  :D

Salam Bender, shukran  :peace:
In the name of God, The Compassionate, The Merciful.
Praise be to God, Lord of the Universe,
The Compassionate, The Merciful,
Sovereign of the Day of Judgement!
You alone we worship, and to You alone we turn for help.
Guide us to the straight path,
The path of those You have favoured,
Not of those who have incurred Your wrath,
Nor of those who have gone astray.

Ayisha

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Re: Jesus VS Isa
« Reply #101 on: March 09, 2012, 04:38:36 PM »
The curious thing about these questions is that the narrations of the Bible are undisputed but not proved, but on the other hand people want to prove what the Qur'an says or not based on a narration that has not been proved.
In my mind trying to piece the facts of the previous books from Quran is a way of proving those parts if not all. If that makes sense.

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Where in the gospels is it question of a family of Imran whose grand child would be Jesus. Where is the Haroon who, if the Qur'an is taken seriously would, be Jesus' contemporary or Mary's contemporary.
Haroon (Aaron) is in Torah, not the gospels. The lineage of jesus is in both Luke and Mark but different accounts, some say one is from Mary and the other from Joseph, both go back to Amram (Imran) as far as I'm aware, will check tomorrow.  :peace:

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The thing is that in order to prove the Qur'an by the Bible these things do not match, not to speak about Joseph the carpenter, who appears nowhere in the Qur'an. Was the Gospel Jesus born in a city or qaryia or was he born in a remote and lonely place? Can it be that we are talking about the same person? Can we pick the pieces that we take grom the gospels and those we take from the Qur'an and make up a prophetic frankenstein?
Personally, I'm trying to find the facts in Torah and other books from Quran, not trying to prove Quran, that doesn't need any proof, for me anyway. I'm looking at what Quran says about that past and trying to piece that in those past books, and there is a LOT that matches what is in Torah, haven't started on the New Testament yet as still playing with 'lost' books which I think are more 'gospel' than dear old Pauls versions in the NT.

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With Musa and Haroon, the bani Israil continued turning away and then comes the kindom with Suleymand and Dawood and the people are again good. So which prophet made them turn to good?
All, and none. As always there will be those that see and those that don't and those that say they do and don't, Quran tells you even up to that time there were people of Muhammed's that were non-believers who claimed to follow.

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On the other hand, Miryam daughter of of Imran matches in both books, sister of Haroon matches in both books, do we have to make two Myriams in the Qur'an so as to comply with the gospels, or rather split the Miryam in the Qur'an to match both Myriams in the Bible. Because the Bible may give two, but the Qur'an gives only one.
I disagree, there are 2 Maryams in Quran, as there is not only one pharaoh in Quran but more  :peace:

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Where are the documents apart from the gosples themselves and the literature sprung from them that prove the narrations and circumstances of the gospel.
too tired to understand the question, will try tomorrow  :hypno:

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Obviously, anybody can ask the same question regarding the stories as told by the Qur'an, but for those who believe the Qur'an is revelation without contamination, proof of everything might be welcomed but it is not necessary, and we know that the literature sprung around the figure of Jesus is not above criticism and certainly not documented. The most that is dared is to say that Jesus did exist, that he was mentioned by Favio Josefo and I do not know whether there is much else. There is also a trip to Egypt in his childhood, but in the Qur'an there is nothing.
Everything from before isn't in Quran, it's not necessary to tell you again that Jesus was in Egypt and there is more about Moses and Abraham in Quran than there is about Jesus I think, could be wrong though.

Now I AM going to sleep, I knew it was a bad idea to come back on this forum, I never get any sleep!! 

Salam and goodnight all.  :peace:
In the name of God, The Compassionate, The Merciful.
Praise be to God, Lord of the Universe,
The Compassionate, The Merciful,
Sovereign of the Day of Judgement!
You alone we worship, and to You alone we turn for help.
Guide us to the straight path,
The path of those You have favoured,
Not of those who have incurred Your wrath,
Nor of those who have gone astray.

huruf

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Re: Jesus VS Isa
« Reply #102 on: March 09, 2012, 05:19:26 PM »

 Haroon (Aaron) is in Torah, not the gospels.


Quote
   

I disagree, there are 2 Maryams in Quran, as there is not only one pharaoh in Quran but more



Precisely, there is no Harun in the gospels, therefore if there is any sister or Harun or Harun contemporary, she cannot be from the time the gospels purport to narrate about.

That is diagnostic.




Please tell which are those two Maryams, and how do you know from the Qur'an that they are not the same. And Please do as much with the fir3awn


Salaam

farida

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Re: Jesus VS Isa
« Reply #103 on: March 09, 2012, 05:25:18 PM »


Moses, Aaron and Miriam were brothers and sister. Their father was Amram and mother was Jochebed the daughter of Levi. (Numbers 26:59) Miriam was the sister that watched Moses and suggested to Pharaoh about feeding the baby Moses, which was the mother.

That's my take on it  :peace:

Salaam
The Qur'an does not reveal the name the sister who watched Moses and suggested to Pharaoh about feeding the baby Moses
Salaam

tlihawa

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Re: Jesus VS Isa
« Reply #104 on: March 09, 2012, 08:44:57 PM »
Salaam Ayisha,


Isa is Jesus, Mother was Mary who was a descendent of Imran (Amram in the Torah) = Family of Imran. The mother of Mary is not NAMED, she is 'a woman of Imran' nor is it clear as mud who the mother of Mary was in the Torah or the rest of the books. What is clear is that Moses and Jesus did not exist at the same time and that Miriam was a VERY common name.  Jesus and John the baptist existed at the same time and Mary, mother of Jesus, visited Elizabeth the mother of John and wife of Zacharia while they were both pregnant at the same time.  Miriam, sister of Aaron and Moses was a long time before this.

That's my take on it  :peace:

When you say Isa is Jesus, did you consider the fact stated in both Quran and Gospel about how they died?

Quran said:

4:157   And their saying: "We have killed the Al Masih, son of Maryam, messenger of God!" And they had not killed him, nor crucified him, but it appeared to them as if they had. And those who dispute are in doubt regarding him, they have no knowledge except to follow conjecture; they did not kill him for a certainty.

Gospel said:

Matthew 27
(38) At the same time two robbers were crucified with Him, one on the right hand and one on the left.

(50) And Jesus cried again with a loud voice and gave up His spirit.


I saw you compiled the information about family tree from both Quran and Gospel to get the conclusion that Isa is Jesus, but you did not take into account that both Kitab has different information about their death.

Did God sent down different information about their death? Why God didn't tell people in Gospel that it wasn't Jesus that they had crucified?

Why God sent down different information about him, if Isa is Jesus?

Did you could find any miraculously story about Jesus had been replaced by someone at the cross, from Al Quran or Gospel?

I think Al Quran is consistent about it, and so does Gospel. It is our mind having that inconsistency. They were not the same person.

It is our mind dare enough to say that there are two Maryam in Al Quran, just to support that Isa is Jesus, but didn't provide anything when both Kitab said something different about their death.

The fact is they did not crucify Isa:

4:157   And their saying: "We have killed Al Masih, Isa, son of Maryam, messenger of God!" And they had not killed him, nor crucified him, but it appeared to them (like Isa) <shubbiha lahum> . And those who dispute are in doubt regarding him, they have no knowledge except to follow conjecture; they did not kill him for a certainty.


and also the fact that some people had tried to imitate God's creation, explained using the same triliteral root shīn bā hā which also used in 4:157:

13:16   Say: "Who is the Lord of the heavens and the earth?" Say: "God." Say: "Have you taken besides Him allies who do not possess for themselves any benefit or harm?" Say: "Is the blind and the seer the same? Or do the darkness and the light equate? Or have they set up partners with God who have created like His creation, so the creation seemed alike <fatashābaha> to them?" Say: "God has created all things, and He is the One, the Supreme."


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I disagree, the Quran is a part of The Book which consists of Torah, Gospel and Quran. It is the completion of the message and in it are many references to to the other 'portions of the Book' given before it.

And Allah has warned us about the man made Kitab:

2:79   So woe to those who write the Book with their hands then say: "This is from God," so that they can purchase with it a cheap price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they gained.

And the people whose confound the truth with falsehood :

3:71   "O people of the Book, why do you confound the truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know?"

With this reality, I do not dare put the gospel as a reference to explain the contents of the Quran. If the Quran only mentions one Maryam, then indeed there is only one Maryam as the Mother of Isa and the daughter of Imran.

If you could consider Isa is Jesus according to how they had birth, you also have to consider the fact how they had died.

Peace


Ayisha

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Re: Jesus VS Isa
« Reply #105 on: March 10, 2012, 12:25:39 AM »

Precisely, there is no Harun in the gospels, therefore if there is any sister or Harun or Harun contemporary, she cannot be from the time the gospels purport to narrate about.

That is diagnostic.
Does Quran say Aaron is in the gospel? Quran says he is the brother of Moses and Maryam, it doesn't say from the gospel.

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Please tell which are those two Maryams, and how do you know from the Qur'an that they are not the same. And Please do as much with the fir3awn

Salaam
I have told which is which, one is the sister of Moses and Aaron and the other is the mother of Jesus, different times as per Torah and Gospel. Quran is a reminder and confirmation  of the books that went before it so when it speaks to remind me of those past times I refer to those books to find it.

Moses was given The Law, 3.3, later there was Jesus sent to confirm the Law sent before him with Moses 5.46 and Jesus was given the gospel (injeel)

Concerning Pharaoh, Joseph, son of Jacob, son of Isaac, son of Abraham was in Egypt a long time doing various things working for Pharaoh. Moses was the grandson of Levi, the brother of Joseph, when Moses was born Joseph was already in Egypt working for Pharaoh. Moses was in Egypt most of his life (Exodus) as was Joseph. 'Historically' the only Pharaoh around that time who reigned over 60 years was Ramses II but the span of time from Joseph going to Egypt and his grandson leading the people out of Egypt was longer than that. IMHO.

It is totally irrelevant to the message of God who was where when for how long, IMHO, but I like to link things up when they have been told to me that this or that happened. Obviously I cannot 'prove' this theory, just as you cannot 'prove' it's wrong, it's a theory based on the books of God.  :peace:
In the name of God, The Compassionate, The Merciful.
Praise be to God, Lord of the Universe,
The Compassionate, The Merciful,
Sovereign of the Day of Judgement!
You alone we worship, and to You alone we turn for help.
Guide us to the straight path,
The path of those You have favoured,
Not of those who have incurred Your wrath,
Nor of those who have gone astray.

huruf

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Re: Jesus VS Isa
« Reply #106 on: March 10, 2012, 12:42:36 AM »
I do not think you are answering. Of course the Qur'an doesn't say there is a Haroon in the Gospel and therefore if in the Qur'an there is a sister of Harun and that Harun is a brother of Musa, Maryam is contemporary of Musa not o9f the people depicted in the Gospels.

On the other hand, you do not bring any proof from the Qur'an that there are two Maryams. Please do not bring the Gospels, support with the Qur'an only those two Maryams and those two fir3aun.

In the gospel there is one malik of misr, and there is a fir3aun. Just one fir3aun.


Ayisha

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Re: Jesus VS Isa
« Reply #107 on: March 10, 2012, 12:59:15 AM »
Salaam Ayisha,

When you say Isa is Jesus, did you consider the fact stated in both Quran and Gospel about how they died?

Quran said:

4:157   And their saying: "We have killed the Al Masih, son of Maryam, messenger of God!" And they had not killed him, nor crucified him, but it appeared to them as if they had. And those who dispute are in doubt regarding him, they have no knowledge except to follow conjecture; they did not kill him for a certainty.

Gospel said:

Matthew 27
(38) At the same time two robbers were crucified with Him, one on the right hand and one on the left.

(50) And Jesus cried again with a loud voice and gave up His spirit.


I saw you compiled the information about family tree from both Quran and Gospel to get the conclusion that Isa is Jesus, but you did not take into account that both Kitab has different information about their death.

Did God sent down different information about their death? Why God didn't tell people in Gospel that it wasn't Jesus that they had crucified?

Why God sent down different information about him, if Isa is Jesus?

Did you could find any miraculously story about Jesus had been replaced by someone at the cross, from Al Quran or Gospel?

I think Al Quran is consistent about it, and so does Gospel. It is our mind having that inconsistency. They were not the same person.

Salam tlihawa  :peace:

Quran is the word of God, Matthew 27 is the word of man and not the 'Gospel' of Jesus, it's actually called 'The Gospel "according to" Matthew' so naturally there will be inconsistencies and that's why Quran in this instance is 'correcting' what was said in Matthew. I am still in search of the 'Gospel' of Jesus but Matthew, Mark, Luke and John isn't it. However, somewhere in those books it does say Jesus 'ascended' and didn't die, I do not believe he died on a cross for the sins of the world, didn't even as a Christian.

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It is our mind dare enough to say that there are two Maryam in Al Quran, just to support that Isa is Jesus, but didn't provide anything when both Kitab said something different about their death.
I am not saying there are 2 Maryams in Quran 'just to support that Isa is Jesus', it's from Torah and Quran and if you look at both, as both are from God, then you can piece that together. And my mind dare enough to dig as deep and as wide as possible into finding the truth of God, however many Mary's or Maryams there are. FACT is that Jesus was the Word of God and his mother was Mary, whatever 'language' you want to use for the names. The English translation says Jesus, the Hebrew said (I think) Yeshua and the Arabic Isa, possibly the Aramaic had another slightly different translation.



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The fact is they did not crucify Isa:

4:157   And their saying: "We have killed Al Masih, Isa, son of Maryam, messenger of God!" And they had not killed him, nor crucified him, but it appeared to them (like Isa) <shubbiha lahum> . And those who dispute are in doubt regarding him, they have no knowledge except to follow conjecture; they did not kill him for a certainty.
I know  :peace:

Quote
and also the fact that some people had tried to imitate God's creation, explained using the same triliteral root shīn bā hā which also used in 4:157:

13:16   Say: "Who is the Lord of the heavens and the earth?" Say: "God." Say: "Have you taken besides Him allies who do not possess for themselves any benefit or harm?" Say: "Is the blind and the seer the same? Or do the darkness and the light equate? Or have they set up partners with God who have created like His creation, so the creation seemed alike <fatashābaha> to them?" Say: "God has created all things, and He is the One, the Supreme."


And Allah has warned us about the man made Kitab:

2:79   So woe to those who write the Book with their hands then say: "This is from God," so that they can purchase with it a cheap price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they gained.

And the people whose confound the truth with falsehood :

3:71   "O people of the Book, why do you confound the truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know?"

With this reality, I do not dare put the gospel as a reference to explain the contents of the Quran. If the Quran only mentions one Maryam, then indeed there is only one Maryam as the Mother of Isa and the daughter of Imran.

If you could consider Isa is Jesus according to how they had birth, you also have to consider the fact how they had died.

Peace

You seem to be mixing up Torah and Gospel here. The Moses bit is in Torah not Gospel. People of the Book are Jews, Christians (or those purporting to follow Jesus) and Muslims, the BOOK is the whole of the message Torah, Gospel, Quran. These were given at different times to different people, Torah was given to Moses, Moshe, Musa, that's in 3 languages so do you also think these are 3 'different' people too? The story of Moses is in Torah, the story of Jesus is not, Jews following Moses do not believe that Jesus was who he said he was, they are still waiting for the 'messiah'. If Jesus was the nephew of Moses he would be mentioned and all those other prophets and messengers in between would be irrelevant if they were around at the same time. Jesus was sent to uphold the Law of Moses AFTER the people had 'changed it with their tongues' so it's illogical to assume Jesus was as close to Moses as a nephew.  Quran is clearly telling you there was time between the 2.

 
In the name of God, The Compassionate, The Merciful.
Praise be to God, Lord of the Universe,
The Compassionate, The Merciful,
Sovereign of the Day of Judgement!
You alone we worship, and to You alone we turn for help.
Guide us to the straight path,
The path of those You have favoured,
Not of those who have incurred Your wrath,
Nor of those who have gone astray.

Ayisha

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Re: Jesus VS Isa
« Reply #108 on: March 10, 2012, 01:03:00 AM »
I do not think you are answering. Of course the Qur'an doesn't say there is a Haroon in the Gospel and therefore if in the Qur'an there is a sister of Harun and that Harun is a brother of Musa, Maryam is contemporary of Musa not o9f the people depicted in the Gospels.
sorry that doesn't make any sense.

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On the other hand, you do not bring any proof from the Qur'an that there are two Maryams. Please do not bring the Gospels, support with the Qur'an only those two Maryams and those two fir3aun.
I didn't bring any gospels, I brought Torah, there is a difference.

Quote
In the gospel there is one malik of misr, and there is a fir3aun. Just one fir3aun.
I think you mean in Quran, you are getting confused over the 3 distinctly different Books of God here. The King of Egypt IS Pharaoh, NONE of them are named in Quran.
In the name of God, The Compassionate, The Merciful.
Praise be to God, Lord of the Universe,
The Compassionate, The Merciful,
Sovereign of the Day of Judgement!
You alone we worship, and to You alone we turn for help.
Guide us to the straight path,
The path of those You have favoured,
Not of those who have incurred Your wrath,
Nor of those who have gone astray.

Ayisha

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Re: Jesus VS Isa
« Reply #109 on: March 10, 2012, 01:20:21 AM »
Salaam Ayisha,

When you say Isa is Jesus, did you consider the fact stated in both Quran and Gospel about how they died?

Quran said:

4:157   And their saying: "We have killed the Al Masih, son of Maryam, messenger of God!" And they had not killed him, nor crucified him, but it appeared to them as if they had. And those who dispute are in doubt regarding him, they have no knowledge except to follow conjecture; they did not kill him for a certainty.

Gospel said:

Matthew 27
(38) At the same time two robbers were crucified with Him, one on the right hand and one on the left.

(50) And Jesus cried again with a loud voice and gave up His spirit.


I saw you compiled the information about family tree from both Quran and Gospel to get the conclusion that Isa is Jesus, but you did not take into account that both Kitab has different information about their death.

Did God sent down different information about their death? Why God didn't tell people in Gospel that it wasn't Jesus that they had crucified?

Why God sent down different information about him, if Isa is Jesus?

Did you consider why God is 'correcting' the information about Jesus in Quran if it's NOT the same person?

 :peace:
In the name of God, The Compassionate, The Merciful.
Praise be to God, Lord of the Universe,
The Compassionate, The Merciful,
Sovereign of the Day of Judgement!
You alone we worship, and to You alone we turn for help.
Guide us to the straight path,
The path of those You have favoured,
Not of those who have incurred Your wrath,
Nor of those who have gone astray.