Jesus VS Isa

[nobuddy]

"Ukht Haroun" does not necessarily mean she was his blood sister. It simply shows that they were contemporaries (meaning:  Maryam and Harun lived in the same age).  By the same logic, Musa and Harun also lived in the same age. Even in the Old Testament, Maryam is portrayed as a fairly young maiden at the time the Israelites escaped from Msrim and the drowning of Far3oun. This means that Moses and Harun were far older than she was.

The Quran tells us that "Imra'at Imran" (meaning: woman or wife of Imran) gave birth to a girl, and named her Maryam. But it does not say that Musa and Harun were also children of this same mother. They were, however, of the same era and constituted the same household. And There is an entire chapter in the Quran named after this small household. 

The claim that Maryam and Moses lived 1000 years apart is quite plainly absurd and does not make any sense.

Regards..

Peace,


A sister/brother (sibling) is of the same mother/father and there was definitely an older sister...

20:40 إذ when تمشي was going أختك your sister فتقول so she said هل shall أدلكم I show you على on من from يكفله nurse him فرجعناك so We returned you إلى to أمك your mother كي that تقر to cool عينها her eyes ولا and not تحزن she grieve …

It was/is common to refer back to a prominent ancestor and absurd is they were altogether.

[farida]

Peace,


A sister/brother (sibling) is of the same mother/father and there was definitely an older sister...

20:40 إذ when تمشي was going أختك your sister فتقول so she said هل shall أدلكم I show you على on من from يكفله nurse him فرجعناك so We returned you إلى to أمك your mother كي that تقر to cool عينها her eyes ولا and not تحزن she grieve …

It was/is common to refer back to a prominent ancestor and absurd is they were altogether.

Salaam
In the Qur'an members of a tribe are often refered to as brother or sister of their people; for examples surah 26; 105-106 and  141-142 whereas when refering to siblings the term used is "son of my mother" 7;150 and 20;94 so it could mean tirbe of Harun.
Salaam

[Asana]

Peace pazuzu

"Ukht Haroun" does not necessarily mean she was his blood sister. It simply shows that they were contemporaries (meaning:  Maryam and Harun lived in the same age).

If she wasn’t blood sister then you shouldn’t have said it in first place that they were brother and sister…..You should have clearly said they were contemporaries. This changes the whole issue.

Even in the Old Testament, Maryam is portrayed as a fairly young maiden at the time the Israelites escaped from Msrim and the drowning of Far3oun. This means that Moses and Harun were far older than she was.

Ok lets assume she was 10 years old and Moses was 170 years old!….It means Moses was messenger and alive and Zacharia was a prophet too……Question is, wasn’t Zacharia a Jewish prophet, meaning was sent to children of Israel, right? In this case Moses and Zacharia were contemporaries too…It means Children of Israel received Moses as a messenger and Zacharia as prophet at the same time…Is it possible???! .It doesn’t make sense or does it?
Zacharia was old when became guardian of Maryam….It means he lived long enough as a contemporary prophet along side with Moses the messenger….This doesn’t make sense too. Have you ever read it some where that these two were contemporaries?

The Quran tells us that "Imra'at Imran" (meaning: woman or wife of Imran) gave birth to a girl, and named her Maryam. But it does not say that Musa and Harun were also children of this same mother. They were, however, of the same era and constituted the same household.

Sorry for my error by saying daughter of Imran.

Not being from the same mother still is called sister if their father was the same!
Either they were brother and sister through same parents or half or they never were brother and sister in first place.
Being from a same household is totally different than being from the same parents or half.
Being from the same era establishes another story too as it needs to be proved yet if Moses and Zacharia were contemporaries.

And There is an entire chapter in the Quran named after this small household.

Sorry it doesn’t prove anything…..It doesn’t prove Maryam was sister of Moses nor were contemporaries.

The claim that Maryam and Moses lived 1000 years apart is quite plainly absurd and does not make any sense.

God knows best .Unfortunately your claim doesn’t make sense and I don’t see any proof for it.

Peace
Asana

[tlihawa]

Salaam Bender,

I don't agree here.

The people of the town said this:
36:15 They said: �You are but human beings like us, and the Almighty did not send down anything, you are only telling lies.�

This is not what people said about Musa and AlMasih Isa ibnu Meryem.

could you please elaborate which verses?

btw please also note how the story begins:
36:13 And put forth for them the example (methal) of the people of the town, when the messengers came to it.

Salaam and may Allah increase us in knowledge and lead us to His path,
Bender

Here is how I see the story:

=Night Journey=

17:1   Glory be to the One who took His servant by night <asra> from the Masjidil Haram to the Masjidl Aqsa which We had blessed around, so that We may show him of Our signs. Indeed, He is the Hearer, the Seer.

there are two masjid here, first one is Masjidil Haram and the second one is Masjidil Aqsa. As per my understanding, Masjid means place of sujood.

=Place of sujood #1=

20:70   So the magicians went down sujjadan. They said: "We believe in the Lord of Harun and Musa."

and Firaun became angry:

20:71   He said: "Have you believed to him before taking my permission? He is surely your great one who has taught you magic. So, I will cut off your hands and feet from alternate sides, and I will crucify you on the trunks of the palm trees, and you will come to know which of us is greater in retribution and more lasting!"

and then the night journey took place as described in 17:1:

20:77   And We inspired to Musa: "Take My servants out by night <asri>, and strike for them a path through the sea that is dry. You shall not fear being overtaken, nor be concerned."

=Place of sujood #2=

4:154   And We raised the mount above them by the covenant they took, and We said to them: "Enter the passageway sujjadan." And We said to them: "Do not transgress the Sabbath;" and We took from them a solemn covenant.

from these verses above, I knew that the Masjidil Haram is the place of sujuud before the night journey, and they moved to distant place called Masjidil Aqsa, or place of sujood in distance (Masjidil Aqsa).

Now, another story, here was a man came from Aqsa'l Madinati, he warned young Musa:

28:20   And a man came running from the Aqsa'l Madinati, saying: "O Musa, the commanders are plotting to kill you, so leave immediately. I am giving you good advice."

So I believe that Musa and his people had moved from the place where the magicians had sujood (it's something must be understood metaphorically, means submissive to God) called Masjidil Haram to Masjidil Aqsa, caused by they were hunted. Please note that Masjidil Haram also exist in Muhammad time with the same situation, they were expelled.

And the Masjidil Aqsa here must be located in the same area with the man who came from Aqsa'l madinati to warn Musa.

Now let's get back to the 'third messenger' :

36:20   And a man came running from Aqsa'l Madinati, saying: O my people, follow the messengers.

The same word has been used to link the messengers in 36:14 with Musa and Harun.

And what about the third one?

The third one had been born in :

19:22   So she (Maryam) was pregnant with him, and she went to deliver in a far place. <makānan qaṣiyyan>

That's all I can say, just to explain my point of view.

36:14   Where We sent two (messengers) to them, but they disbelieved in them, so We supported them with a third one, thus they said: We are messengers to you.

peace

[Ayisha]

wow, I managed the first 5 pages then gave up, so my bit which has probably been said before, if so sorry about that! 

Moses, Aaron and Miriam were brothers and sister. Their father was Amram and mother was Jochebed the daughter of Levi. (Numbers 26:59) Miriam was the sister that watched Moses and suggested to Pharaoh about feeding the baby Moses, which was the mother.

Chapter 19 of Quran, 1-15 is about Zacharia the father of John the baptist, then at verse 16 it relates the story of Mary the mother of Jesus as Zacharia is old and his wife is barren so this is showing that God can do what He says he can do, which is give Zacharia a son. 19:28 IMHO does not mean the sister of Aaron,  Miriam it is descendent.

Chapter 3 the 'woman of Imran' again I would say descendent of Imran and mother of Mary, the mother of Jesus. Mary from birth was 'dedicated' to the service of God so was given to the care of Zacharia as he was a priest.

Isa is Jesus, Mother was Mary who was a descendent of Imran (Amram in the Torah) = Family of Imran. The mother of Mary is not NAMED, she is 'a woman of Imran' nor is it clear as mud who the mother of Mary was in the Torah or the rest of the books. What is clear is that Moses and Jesus did not exist at the same time and that Miriam was a VERY common name.  Jesus and John the baptist existed at the same time and Mary, mother of Jesus, visited Elizabeth the mother of John and wife of Zacharia while they were both pregnant at the same time.  Miriam, sister of Aaron and Moses was a long time before this.

That's my take on it 

[Pazuzu]

'woman of Imran' again I would say descendent of Imran and mother of Mary, the mother of Jesus.

When you say "woman of Imran" means DESCENDANT of Imran, you are going against uniformity in the way the Quran used this word. The Quranic term is "Imra'at", and NOWHERE was this term ever used as meaning "descendant".  We have to be consitant with our interpretation of terms. If a word appears 50 times in the Quran, and we give it the same meaning 49 times, and a different meaning on just 1 occasion, this means we are being inconsistant.

Let's see how the Quran used the word "Imra'at":


1) Concerning Noah:

{Allah puts forth as examples of those who have rejected, the wife of Noah and the wife of Lot. They were under  two of Our righteous servants, but they betrayed them and, consequently, they could not help them at all against Allah. And it was said: "Enter the Fire, both of you, with those who will enter it."}...[66:10}

The Arabic text says:  "Imra'at Nuh" and "Imra'at Lut".  Which means "woman or wife", NOT descendant. 

Hence, "Imra'at Noah" perished during Noah's time, and was destined to enter the fire. She was not a 1000-year descendant of Noah.

2) Concerning Lot:

{They said: "O Lot, we are messengers of your Rabb; they will not be able to harm you, so travel with your family during the cover of the night and let not any of you look back except for your wife, she will be afflicted with what they will be afflicted. Their scheduled time will be the morning. Is the morning not near?"...[11:81]

Again, we have the same word used: "Imra'atuka" (meaning: you wife or woman). This woman, who stayed behind and persihed with the other inhabitants of the doomed town, lived DURING Lot's time. She was not a 1000-year descendant of Lot.


3) Concerning Abraham:

{He  (Abraham) then became fearful of them. They said: "Do not fear" and they gave him good news of a knowledgeable son. His wife then approached in amazement. She slapped upon her face, and said: "A barren old woman!"}...[51:28,29]


The Arabic text clearly says: "Imra'atuhu" (his woman - wife), slapped her face in disbelief when she was given the tidings. This woman lived during Abrahams' time. Wether it means his wife, concubine, servant, or whatever, that's not the point. The point is  "Imra'atuhu" does not mean DESCENDANT, in any way, shape, or form.

4) Concerning Far3oun:

{And the wife of Pharaoh said: "A pleasure to my eye and yours, so do not kill him, perhaps he will benefit us or we may take him as a son;" while they did not perceive}...[28:9]

Here, we see a conversation taking place between Far3oun and "Imra'at Far3oun", where she convinces him to take baby Moses and raise him in Far3oun's house.  Imra'at Far3oun means WIFE or WOMAN of Far3oun, and lived during Far3oun's time, not 1000 years after.


5)Concerning Imran:

{When the wife of Imran said: "My Rabb, I have vowed to You what is in my womb, dedicated, so accept from me, You are the Hearer, the Knower."}...[3:35]


This is no different than all the above instances: "Imra'at Imran" means wife/woman of Imran's household, not some figure who came 1000 years after him.

Its about methodology and common sense. It's about not twistng the meaning of the Quran to fit with pre-conceived dogma, and make it match the Bible. The Quran is an INDEPENDANT document that supercedes all previous scriptures.

____________________

The word "Injeel" is an Arabic term which comes from the root N-J-L, meaning "good news or tidings of good things to come". This is why a man would label his baby son as "NJL"  نجل   in Arabic, because the baby is tidings of an inheritor and descendant.  The Arabic female name "Najla'a"  نجلاء    also comes from the same root. 

This is similar to the  "JBR" - "JIBREEL"  and "BLS" - "IBLEES" phenomena.

Of course the stubborn traditioanlists insist the Quran contains non-Arabic terms, so they can't even grasp this. (They want to defy Allah, who clearly says He revealed an "Arabic Quran"). They tell you that "Injeel" is a bastardization of the Greek word "Evangelion".  For the 1000' th time I repeat: The Quran did not borrow from Greek or Persian.

You can expect no better from those who put the Quran in second place to make it conform to previous scriptures and dogmatic ideas, rather than making it the JUDGE and CORRECTOR of those scriptures and ideas.

____________________

The Isa of the Quran told the people around him that a messenger would come after him, by the name of "Ahmad".
Isa could not have been in Palestine, and given tidings of a messenger who would appear centuries later, and 2000 KM away in South Arabia.

____________________

Peace...

[Bender]

Salaam Bender,
could you please elaborate which verses?

Salaam tlihawa

7:109 The commanders from among the people of Pharaoh said: "This is a knowledgeable magician!"

5:116 And God will say: "O Jesus, son of Mary, did you tell the people to take you and your mother as gods other than God?" He said: "Glory to you, I cannot say what I have no right of. If I had said it then You know it, You know what is in my self while I do not know what is in Your self. You are the Knower of the unseen."

Also in chapter 2, you see that the followers of Musa always talk to musa like this: Say to YOUR Lord...
And in chapter 5, the followers of Isa do the same.

It looks to me that they didn't saw them as "humans like us", but more like some humans with super powers.

Here is how I see the story:

=Night Journey=

17:1   Glory be to the One who took His servant by night <asra> from the Masjidil Haram to the Masjidl Aqsa which We had blessed around, so that We may show him of Our signs. Indeed, He is the Hearer, the Seer.

there are two masjid here, first one is Masjidil Haram and the second one is Masjidil Aqsa. As per my understanding, Masjid means place of sujood.

I agree, I also believe that 17:1 is talking about Musa, cos he is the only one who did a night journey in The Quran. But also because 17:2 talks about Musa.

17:2 And We gave Moses the Book and We made it a guidance for the Children of Israel: "Do not believe in any besides Me."

I believe that if there is a candidate among the servants mentioned in The Quran who can be potentially the servant of 17:1 then it must be Musa.

I also believe that masjid means place of sujood.

=Place of sujood #1=

20:70   So the magicians went down sujjadan. They said: "We believe in the Lord of Harun and Musa."

and Firaun became angry:

20:71   He said: "Have you believed to him before taking my permission? He is surely your great one who has taught you magic. So, I will cut off your hands and feet from alternate sides, and I will crucify you on the trunks of the palm trees, and you will come to know which of us is greater in retribution and more lasting!"

and then the night journey took place as described in 17:1:

20:77   And We inspired to Musa: "Take My servants out by night <asri>, and strike for them a path through the sea that is dry. You shall not fear being overtaken, nor be concerned."

Yup, I agree that al-masjid al-haram is the area where the magicians went down.

=Place of sujood #2=

4:154   And We raised the mount above them by the covenant they took, and We said to them: "Enter the passageway sujjadan." And We said to them: "Do not transgress the Sabbath;" and We took from them a solemn covenant.

from these verses above, I knew that the Masjidil Haram is the place of sujuud before the night journey, and they moved to distant place called Masjidil Aqsa, or place of sujood in distance (Masjidil Aqsa).

Here I don't know. Maybe al-masjid al-aqsa is where Musa saw the fire.
note in verse 17:1 the blue part:
17:1 Glory be to the One who took His servant by night from the Restricted Temple to the most distant temple allathee barakna hawlahu , so that We may show him of Our signs. Indeed, He is the Hearer, the Seer

take now a look at this:
27:8 So when he came to it he was called: "an boorika man fee alnnari waman hawlaha, and glory to God, Lord of the worlds."

Now, another story, here was a man came from Aqsa'l Madinati, he warned young Musa:

28:20   And a man came running from the Aqsa'l Madinati, saying: "O Musa, the commanders are plotting to kill you, so leave immediately. I am giving you good advice."

So I believe that Musa and his people had moved from the place where the magicians had sujood (it's something must be understood metaphorically, means submissive to God) called Masjidil Haram to Masjidil Aqsa, caused by they were hunted. Please note that Masjidil Haram also exist in Muhammad time with the same situation, they were expelled.

And the Masjidil Aqsa here must be located in the same area with the man who came from Aqsa'l madinati to warn Musa.

Now let's get back to the 'third messenger' :

36:20   And a man came running from Aqsa'l Madinati, saying: O my people, follow the messengers.

The same word has been used to link the messengers in 36:14 with Musa and Harun.

And what about the third one?

The third one had been born in :

19:22   So she (Maryam) was pregnant with him, and she went to deliver in a far place. <makānan qaṣiyyan>

That's all I can say, just to explain my point of view.

36:14   Where We sent two (messengers) to them, but they disbelieved in them, so We supported them with a third one, thus they said: We are messengers to you.

peace

I think the man who warned Musa in 28:20 is the same man as in 40:28-45

I also believed earlier that the messengers of the story in chapter 36 where reffering to Musa and Harun and some other messenger, because of the man from "aqsa almadinah", but i'm not sure.  So overal this is just a theorie, I don't know.
At the moment I think the messengers of chapter 36 are just some other messengers, not one of the messengers with a name in The Quran.

Salaam and may Allah increase us in knowledge,
Bender

[Bender]

salaam,

really like your avatar 

[Ayisha]

When you say "woman of Imran" means DESCENDANT of Imran, you are going against uniformity in the way the Quran used this word. The Quranic term is "Imra'at", and NOWHERE was this term ever used as meaning "descendant".  We have to be consitant with our interpretation of terms. If a word appears 50 times in the Quran, and we give it the same meaning 49 times, and a different meaning on just 1 occasion, this means we are being inconsistant.

Let's see how the Quran used the word "Imra'at":


1) Concerning Noah:

{Allah puts forth as examples of those who have rejected, the wife of Noah and the wife of Lot. They were under  two of Our righteous servants, but they betrayed them and, consequently, they could not help them at all against Allah. And it was said: "Enter the Fire, both of you, with those who will enter it."}...[66:10}

The Arabic text says:  "Imra'at Nuh" and "Imra'at Lut".  Which means "woman or wife", NOT descendant. 

Hence, "Imra'at Noah" perished during Noah's time, and was destined to enter the fire. She was not a 1000-year descendant of Noah.

2) Concerning Lot:

{They said: "O Lot, we are messengers of your Rabb; they will not be able to harm you, so travel with your family during the cover of the night and let not any of you look back except for your wife, she will be afflicted with what they will be afflicted. Their scheduled time will be the morning. Is the morning not near?"...[11:81]

Again, we have the same word used: "Imra'atuka" (meaning: you wife or woman). This woman, who stayed behind and persihed with the other inhabitants of the doomed town, lived DURING Lot's time. She was not a 1000-year descendant of Lot.


3) Concerning Abraham:

{He  (Abraham) then became fearful of them. They said: "Do not fear" and they gave him good news of a knowledgeable son. His wife then approached in amazement. She slapped upon her face, and said: "A barren old woman!"}...[51:28,29]


The Arabic text clearly says: "Imra'atuhu" (his woman - wife), slapped her face in disbelief when she was given the tidings. This woman lived during Abrahams' time. Wether it means his wife, concubine, servant, or whatever, that's not the point. The point is  "Imra'atuhu" does not mean DESCENDANT, in any way, shape, or form.

4) Concerning Far3oun:

{And the wife of Pharaoh said: "A pleasure to my eye and yours, so do not kill him, perhaps he will benefit us or we may take him as a son;" while they did not perceive}...[28:9]

Here, we see a conversation taking place between Far3oun and "Imra'at Far3oun", where she convinces him to take baby Moses and raise him in Far3oun's house.  Imra'at Far3oun means WIFE or WOMAN of Far3oun, and lived during Far3oun's time, not 1000 years after.


5)Concerning Imran:

{When the wife of Imran said: "My Rabb, I have vowed to You what is in my womb, dedicated, so accept from me, You are the Hearer, the Knower."}...[3:35]


This is no different than all the above instances: "Imra'at Imran" means wife/woman of Imran's household, not some figure who came 1000 years after him.

Ok, woman of Imran, it still does not mean it was NOT a woman of the family of Imran as in later on but of the line of, and that's your assumption it's not.

Its about methodology and common sense. It's about not twistng the meaning of the Quran to fit with pre-conceived dogma, and make it match the Bible.

That's not the Bible, it's the Torah, the Book God confirms was from Him and was the same at the time of Muhammed. 

The Quran is an INDEPENDANT document that supercedes all previous scriptures.

I disagree, the Quran is a part of The Book which consists of Torah, Gospel and Quran. It is the completion of the message and in it are many references to to the other 'portions of the Book' given before it.

____________________

The word "Injeel" is an Arabic term which comes from the root N-J-L, meaning "good news or tidings of good things to come". This is why a man would label his baby son as "NJL"  نجل   in Arabic, because the baby is tidings of an inheritor and descendant.  The Arabic female name "Najla'a"  نجلاء    also comes from the same root. 

This is similar to the  "JBR" - "JIBREEL"  and "BLS" - "IBLEES" phenomena.

Of course the stubborn traditioanlists insist the Quran contains non-Arabic terms, so they can't even grasp this. (They want to defy Allah, who clearly says He revealed an "Arabic Quran"). They tell you that "Injeel" is a bastardization of the Greek word "Evangelion".  For the 1000' th time I repeat: The Quran did not borrow from Greek or Persian.

I must've missed the bits that this has to do with, my apologies for that, but as you are replying to one line of my post with this I will stick my bit in. I have certainly never said Quran has none Arabic words, I will have to put that on my study list so thank you for bringing that up  Although I disagree with Injeel meaning good news at this time, but it's late here, but the mention of Injeel in 3.3 is alongside Torah, a book, so does 5.66, 5.68, 9.111 as a start. I will check tomorrow on the instances of good news and glad tidings, but I doubt at this time they say Injeel, even in Arabic.

You can expect no better from those who put the Quran in second place to make it conform to previous scriptures and dogmatic ideas, rather than making it the JUDGE and CORRECTOR of those scriptures and ideas.

I put Quran in the first place as I know that is the absolute word of God as related to the prophet Muhammed but I do also study the other parts of the message of God and try to line things up in my head, I don't discard any part of the message of God claiming one is independent and supercedes others that that one clearly tells me are from the same source and part of the message, I believe in ALL the books of God as instructed.

____________________

The Isa of the Quran told the people around him that a messenger would come after him, by the name of "Ahmad".
Isa could not have been in Palestine, and given tidings of a messenger who would appear centuries later, and 2000 KM away in South Arabia.

Why not? Quran says he told the Children of Israel, where do you think they were? He wouldn't be telling the children of Israel in Mekka would he? Or maybe Muhammed was not in Saudi Arabia as Mekka and Medina are not mentioned in Quran anyway, are they?

[huruf]

The curious thing about these questions is that the narrations of the Bible are undisputed but not proved, but on the other hand people want to prove what the Qur'an says or not based on a narration that has not been proved.

Where in the gospels is it question of a family of Imran whose grand child would be Jesus. Where is the Haroon who, if the Qur'an is taken seriously would, be Jesus' contemporary or Mary's contemporary.

The thing is that in order to prove the Qur'an by the Bible these things do not match, not to speak about Joseph the carpenter, who appears nowhere in the Qur'an. Was the Gospel Jesus born in a city or qaryia or was he born in a remote and lonely place? Can it be that we are talking about the same person? Can we pick the pieces that we take grom the gospels and those we take from the Qur'an and make up a prophetic frankenstein?

With Musa and Haroon, the bani Israil continued turning away and then comes the kindom with Suleymand and Dawood and the people are again good. So which prophet made them turn to good?

On the other hand, Miryam daughter of of Imran matches in both books, sister of Haroon matches in both books, do we have to make two Myriams in the Qur'an so as to comply with the gospels, or rather split the Miryam in the Qur'an to match both Myriams in the Bible. Because the Bible may give two, but the Qur'an gives only one.

Where are the documents apart from the gosples themselves and the literature sprung from them that prove the narrations and circumstances of the gospel.

Obviously, anybody can ask the same question regarding the stories as told by the Qur'an, but for those who believe the Qur'an is revelation without contamination, proof of everything might be welcomed but it is not necessary, and we know that the literature sprung around the figure of Jesus is not above criticism and certainly not documented. The most that is dared is to say that Jesus did exist, that he was mentioned by Favio Josefo and I do not know whether there is much else. There is also a trip to Egypt in his childhood, but in the Qur'an there is nothing.

Salaam