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The Hasidic Gentile Movement

Started by Ahmad Bilal, September 23, 2009, 12:22:18 AM

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Ahmad Bilal

Peace to all,

There is a growing group among former Christians, especially those who are not satisfied with it's teachings and observance of the Biblical scriptures, that is sprouting up all over the world. It has been operational for a while, but I'm starting to see more and more of them as of recently. The members of this group call themselves "Hasidic Gentiles", or Noahides. They follow the seven Noahide laws, outlined in the oral Torah, and some of them actually observe most of the Jewish laws, as many as possible for Gentiles. Many of their views and beliefs are fairly similar to the teachings of Islaam, especially concerning worshipping God alone... The clearer separations between these Noahides and Muslims include: Noahides don't believe in Jesus as a prophet, and some even believe he was a fictional character altogether who never really existed; many Noahides reject Islaam, mostly based on the public perception of them, linking them with Arabs, violence, and terrorism; and they believe the Jews to be the "chosen people" of Allah (to spread the message of pure monotheism throughout the world), not the Muslims. The Noahides also reject the Christian (Greek) scriptures, and they only acknowledge the Hebrew Tanakh as being divinely inspired, placing special emphasis on the Torah of Moses as being the highest of these books. Many of them believe that Muhammad was a good, wise, godly man, but they reject the idea that he was a prophet of God.

Has anyone come into contact with a member of this group? Is there some type of general concensus concerning the Noahides (i.e. Hasidic Gentiles)?

Here's a link outlining the seven Noahide laws (or catagories of laws)...
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/noahide.html

Peace,

Ahmad
"The true delight is in the finding out, rather than in the knowing." - Isaac Asimov

Jafar

Quote from: Ahmad Bilal on September 23, 2009, 12:22:18 AM
and they believe the Jews to be the "chosen people" of Allah (to spread the message of pure monotheism throughout the world), not the Muslims

How about muslim Jews then?
As nearly 60% from the content of the Quran tells a story about a muslim jew named Moses.
And the Quran mentions the name of another muslim jew named Jesus more often than it mention Muhammad.

I also doesn't see that "Muslims" are God's choosen people.. nowhere of such statement is found within the Quran.
In the Quran, it is described that God had sent messengers to all people of the world.
And those messengers is handpicked from their own people speaking in their own tongue.
To the Arabs, it will be Arab messengers, to the japanese it will be japanese messengers, to the eskimos it will be eskimo messenger  etc.. And in contrast to the common Muslim (with capital M) and Jewish beliefs, I've seen traces of monotheism and islam (in the truest meaning of the word) nearly in every culture around the globe.

Relating to your question:
I haven't met people who profess directly that they're Hasidic Gentiles..
But I have met many Jews, and their general view is: Jewish Law and Sheret Ha Divrot (Ten Commandments) is for the jews only, there are no obligations for GOYIM / Gentiles to convert into Judaism and follow the Jewish Law, the gentiles should follow the 7 Noahide law. In contrast to Xtianity and Sunni/Shiites, generally the follower of Judaism today doesn't seek converts... although they do accept convert.

Salam / Peace

MUNZIR ALI

I agree with the seven noahide laws.

Zees

Jews in the very beginning represented a nation similar to that of the nation of Islam. Anyone can become a Jew as Moses himself tried to make the pharaoh and his people follow the path of God to no avail of course. If pharaoh and his people would have converted they would also have become Jews meaning believers in that time. It was only later developments with the battle between the Sadducees and the Pharisees that Jews started seeing themselves as a racial entity. The battle was won by the Blind following Pharisees who developed the concept of a racial nation and afterwards refused to marry into other nations designated them as gentiles now a racial term which before meant simply a non believer. When God says they were a chosen people it meant that the Jewish nation chose to follow the one God while other nations were engaged in idolatry. Since we as muslims follow the one God we are also the chosen people of God by the same logic.

There are two wings to success

Ahmad Bilal

Quote from: Jafar on September 23, 2009, 04:30:49 AM
How about muslim Jews then?
As nearly 60% from the content of the Quran tells a story about a muslim jew named Moses.
And the Quran mentions the name of another muslim jew named Jesus more often than it mention Muhammad.

Realistically, this means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. The Qur'aan defines Islaam as the "millat Ibrahiym"/religion of Abraham, and this holds a high position, since Jews consider themselves to be the sons of Abraham. This is specifically relevant since the Qur'aan makes it clear that Abraham was NOT a Jew...

Quote from: Jafar on September 23, 2009, 04:30:49 AM
I also doesn't see that "Muslims" are God's choosen people.. nowhere of such statement is found within the Quran.
In the Quran, it is described that God had sent messengers to all people of the world.
And those messengers is handpicked from their own people speaking in their own tongue.
To the Arabs, it will be Arab messengers, to the japanese it will be japanese messengers, to the eskimos it will be eskimo messenger  etc.. And in contrast to the common Muslim (with capital M) and Jewish beliefs, I've seen traces of monotheism and islam (in the truest meaning of the word) nearly in every culture around the globe.

Based on this logic, everyone can be considered a "chosen" person of Allah, since messengers (preaching monotheism and peaceful submission to Allah) have appeared in every nation throughout the world.

Quote from: Jafar on September 23, 2009, 04:30:49 AM
I haven't met people who profess directly that they're Hasidic Gentiles..
But I have met many Jews, and their general view is: Jewish Law and Sheret Ha Divrot (Ten Commandments) is for the jews only, there are no obligations for GOYIM / Gentiles to convert into Judaism and follow the Jewish Law, the gentiles should follow the 7 Noahide law. In contrast to Xtianity and Sunni/Shiites, generally the follower of Judaism today doesn't seek converts... although they do accept convert.

I agree with this to an extent, but there are groups of Jews who are beginning to expand proselytizing techniques to non-Jews. They even have websites encouraging people to convert to Orthodox Judaism.
http://bejewish.org/

Also, I've never met any Jews who consider the "Ten Commandments" obligatory on the Jews only. Any Jew will tell you that he/she is bound to 613 commandments, some of which Gentiles are not allowed to adhere to. Plus, many Sunnis DON'T seek converts, especially Wahhabis and Sufis, and very few Shias proselytize and seek converts; most of them don't. They have the same idea that the Jews have: Allah (i.e. Hashem) guides whom He chooses to the right path, and "preaching" is not really necessary.
"The true delight is in the finding out, rather than in the knowing." - Isaac Asimov

Ahmad Bilal

Quote from: MUNZIR ALI on September 23, 2009, 09:16:07 AM
I agree with the seven noahide laws.

Many of them coincide with certain Islaamic/Qur'aanic laws and teachings...
"The true delight is in the finding out, rather than in the knowing." - Isaac Asimov

MUNZIR ALI

Quote from: Ahmad Bilal on September 24, 2009, 12:36:06 AM
Many of them coincide with certain Islaamic/Qur'aanic laws and teachings...
Yes, they seem that they are good people.

Ahmad Bilal

Quote from: MUNZIR ALI on September 24, 2009, 02:05:29 AM
Yes, they seem that they are good people.

Most of them are good people... They, however, do maintain traditional (orthodox) Jewish beliefs, which include the rejection of Jesus and Muhammad and any other non-Jewish prophets (or those who didn't follow rhe Mosaic Law). This is one of the main reasons why the Jews are rebuked by Allah in the Qur'aan...
"The true delight is in the finding out, rather than in the knowing." - Isaac Asimov

FreedomStands

Quote from: Jafar on September 23, 2009, 04:30:49 AM
to the eskimos it will be eskimo messenger  etc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qoyWU_EDDU

The Qur'an does seem to say that the Muslims are the "chosen", they are are just not a specific race or nationality, they are called the "middle nation", anyone who is a Muslim is supposed to go to paradise, and anyone who is not, goes to hell (seems to be the general rule. This includes all the people before the Qur'an and after the Qur'an who have certain qualities according to the Qur'an, qualities which existed in the past as well.

27:59
Say, "All praise (be) to Allah, and peace (be) upon His slaves those whom He has chosen. Is Allah better or what they associate (with Him)?"

37:74
Except (the) slaves (of) Allah the chosen ones.

2:132
And enjoined [it] Ibrahim (upon) his sons and Yaqub, "O my sons! Indeed, Allah has chosen for you the religion, so not (should) you die except while you (are) muslims.

5:3
This day (have) despaired those who disbelieved of your religion, so (do) not fear them, but fear Me. This day I have perfected for you your religion and I have completed upon you My Favor and I have approved for you [the] Islam (as) a religion. But whoever (is) forced by hunger (and) not inclining to sin, then indeed, Allah (is) Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

38:83
Except Your slaves among them the chosen ones.

Whether good or bad, suffering or pleasure, Allah has chosen it all in every way:

26:68
Thy Lord bringeth to pass what He willeth and chooseth. They have never any choice. Glorified be Allah and Exalted above all that they associate (with Him)!

22:78
And strive for Allah (with the) striving due (to) Him. He (has) chosen you and not placed upon you in the religion any difficulty. (The) religion (of) your father Ibrahim. He named you Muslims before and in this, that may be the Messenger a witness over you and you may be witnesses on the mankind. So establish the prayer and give zakah and hold fast to Allah. He (is) your Protector - so an Excellent [the] Protector and an Excellent [the] Helper.

35:32
Then We caused to inherit the Book those whom We have chosen of Our slaves; and among them (is he) who wrongs himself, and among them (is he who is) lukewarm/moderate, and among them (is he who is) foremost in good deeds by permission (of) Allah. That is the Bounty the great.

3:74
He chooses for His Mercy whom He wills. And Allah (is) the Possessor of Bounty - [the] great.

That is to say, what Makes the Choices is a definition for "Allah".

2:105
(Do) not like those who disbelieve from (the) People (of) the Book and not those who associate partners (with Allah), that (there should) be sent down to you any good from your Lord. And Allah chooses for His Mercy whom He wills. And Allah (is the) Possessor (of) [the] Bounty [the] Great.

3:85
And whoever seeks other than [the] Islam (as) religion then never will be accepted from and he in the Hereafter, (will be) from the losers.

and finally

7:128
Moses said to his people, Turn to God for help and be patient. The earth belongs to God. He gives it to those of His servants whom He chooses, and the future belongs to those who fear God.

A Muslim can roughly be defined as one who fears the Ultimate and does not believe anything but the Ultimate holds sway over all experience, worships the Ultimate, fasts, asks for forgiveness, gives in charity, has good manners and is kindly, is caring and sensitive and good to his parents and kindred where reasonable, acts rightly and in accordance with right compassion and justice colored with mercy. The Qur'an describes what a Muslim is and says none but Muslims will achieve success. Today the Qur'an is widely available. A person who reads the Qur'an and rejects it and does not follow it, does not pray, does not fast, does not fear Allah, does not have the qualities of a Muslim and looks to these things with disdain, is said to be thrown in hell-fire as a disbeliever, the scum of the Earth, filth worse than anything in existence, cursed to a horrendous doom.

So a simple litmus test of this is to show people the Qur'an, get them to read it, if they reject it, then at that time they are not a Muslim. You can't be a Muslim while rejecting what the Qur'an says and not practicing what the Qur'an says, or so it seems.

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Fred-Noahide

This is an old thread, but I've been a noahide for the last year or so. Reading the Quran though has me questioning a lot. But I'm happy to try to clarify anything. For the most part the other posters are right about the "noahide movement."