Author Topic: Alkalalah "الكلالة", what does it mean?  (Read 2312 times)

mmouhammad

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Alkalalah "الكلالة", what does it mean?
« on: July 07, 2009, 06:15:20 AM »
Peace all,

From my reading the Kalalah "كلالة" means a man or a woman who survived their parents and their spouses. The Kalalah is a description given to living persons who might have children "heirs" or might not.

This subject is closely tied to the inheritance law as defined in the Quran and mentioned in two of the three related verses in chapter four, namely verse 4:12 and verse 4:176.

Please read along to see how I reached this conclusion after a closer review of the related verses.

As per the inheritance verses children are the default Heirs – they always inherit and their presence determines the shares of other inheritors.

The Heirs "ورثة" is The plural form derived from the verb root "وَرَثَ" inherited, two forms of this root verb, namely "wa ri tha ho" " وَرِثَهُ" which means inherited him; and "you ra tho" "يُورَثُ" means being inherited "has heirs", are used in verse 4:11 and 4:12 respectively.
The usage of the "you ra tho" "يُورَثُ" as in verse 4:12 … and if a man being inherited Kalalah "كلالة" or a woman, " وَإِن كَانَ رَجُلٌ يُورَثُ كَلاَلَةً أَو امْرَأَةٌ ", gives 3 indications.

1.   The absence of the second spouse as per the logical sequence of the verse; where it starts by male without then with children; then by female without then with children; then the only case left is for single parent with children.
  
2.   The presence of Heirs, I say the default Heirs, the children. For only in the absence of the children, the parents will inherit " فَإِن لَّمْ يَكُن لَّهُ وَلَدٌ وَوَرِثَهُ أَبَوَاهُ " hence in that case there will no longer be a Kalalah "كلالة" and verse 4:11 is applicable.

3.   The absence of both parents; this is confirmed as the verse continues to allot a maximum of 1/3 to brothers and sisters. This is also confirmed by verse 4:11, to each parent is 1/6 if he has children; only if no children and parents inherited him then the siblings inherit.

             Summary: No spouse, no parents and children are present.

This is how I concluded that Kalalah "كلالة" means a man or a woman who survived their parents and their spouses and who might or might not have children; then It makes sense to ask what about Kalalah "كلالة" without children after the Kalalah "كلالة" with children is addressed in 4:12, and so the answer came in verse 4:176 " يَسْتَفْتُونَكَ قُلِ اللّهُ يُفْتِيكُمْ فِي الْكَلاَلَةِ إِنِ امْرُؤٌ هَلَكَ لَيْسَ لَهُ وَلَدٌ"

Accordingly, the following is how I understood verses 4:11, 4:12 and 4:176.

Allotted shares get distributed according to the embedded logic in verses 4:11 and 4:12. As per my reading the spouse gets the first share as per verse 4:12 then the parents and siblings as per verse 4:11, then the siblings in Kalalah "كلالة" as per verse 4:12, then the children as per verse 4:12 and distributed as per 4:11.

The children are always last to receive their share, the remainder. The logical reason is that their presence is what determines the shares of others.
Read with me; to the spouse 1/2 M or 1/4 F if there are no children; if the condition is evaluated to true the allotted share is given out; all conditions should be evaluated according the logic listed below:

All cases, spouse, parents, siblings and children:
•   If the deceased had a spouse, the condition defined at the beginning of verse 4:12 are evaluated.
  o   Case husband no children = 1/2 or 1/4 with children - payoff
  o   Case wife no children = 1/4 or 1/8 with children - payoff
•   Remainder: parents – second part of verse 4:11 is evaluated.
  o   Case parents no children = mother 1/3, father 2/3 concluded - payoff
       Case siblings = mother 1/6 reduced, siblings 5/6 shared with or without father "للذكر مثل حظ الانثيين" - payoff
  o   Case parents with children = each 1/6 - payoff
•   Remainder: to Children, the inheritance to be divided according to the 3 categories at the beginning of verse 4:11. pay off
•   The term "mima tarak مما ترك", from what he left "or is left" is always correct and applicable after every evaluation.

The Kalalah "كلالة" as in verse 4:12; deceased left no spouse or parents behind, only children.
•   If the deceased had a brother or a sister then for each is 1/6, if he had more than 2 brothers and sisters then they are all partners in the 1/3. The last part of verse 4:12 is evaluated. - payoff
•   The balance 2/3 will then be given to the children and will be divided according to the 3 categories at the beginning of verse 4:11. - payoff

The Kalalah "كلالة" as in verse 4:176; deceased left no spouse, parents or children behind.
•   Verse 4:176 is the only applicable verse, the remainder will be distributed to the near and relatives as known "بالمعروف". - payoff

The translation of the Book of God regardless of its style remains the understanding of the translator at the time of translation.

Samia

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Re: Alkalalah "الكلالة", what does it mean?
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2009, 08:16:36 AM »
Thank you for starting a thread mainly for kelala.

I hope that you show how you arrived at the understanding that:

-kelala does not have a spouse.
-kelala does not have parents
-kelala has children.

or as you put it " akelala is someone who survived his parents and spouse" and "The Kalalah "كلالة" as in verse 4:12; deceased left no spouse or parents behind, only children".

Can you point out where children inherit with uncles/aunts (siblings of the deceased)?

mmouhammad

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Re: Alkalalah "الكلالة", what does it mean?
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2009, 08:28:39 AM »
Peace sister,

Thank you for starting a thread mainly for kelala.

I hope that you show how you arrived at the understanding that:

-kelala does not have a spouse.
-kelala does not have parents
-kelala has children.

or as you put it " akelala is someone who survived his parents and spouse" and "The Kalalah "كلالة" as in verse 4:12; deceased left no spouse or parents behind, only children".


As per the inheritance verses children are the default Heirs – they always inherit and their presence determines the shares of other inheritors.

The Heirs "ورثة" is The plural form derived from the verb root "وَرَثَ" inherited, two forms of this root verb, namely "wa ri tha ho" " وَرِثَهُ" which means inherited him; and "you ra tho" "يُورَثُ" means being inherited "has heirs", are used in verse 4:11 and 4:12 respectively.
The usage of the "you ra tho" "يُورَثُ" as in verse 4:12 … and if a man being inherited Kalalah "كلالة" or a woman, " وَإِن كَانَ رَجُلٌ يُورَثُ كَلاَلَةً أَو امْرَأَةٌ ", gives 3 indications.

1.   The absence of the second spouse as per the logical sequence of the verse; where it starts by male without then with children; then by female without then with children; then the only case left is for single parent with children.
  
2.   The presence of Heirs, I say the default Heirs, the children. For only in the absence of the children, the parents will inherit " فَإِن لَّمْ يَكُن لَّهُ وَلَدٌ وَوَرِثَهُ أَبَوَاهُ " hence in that case there will no longer be a Kalalah "كلالة" and verse 4:11 is applicable.

3.   The absence of both parents; this is confirmed as the verse continues to allot a maximum of 1/3 to brothers and sisters. This is also confirmed by verse 4:11, to each parent is 1/6 if he has children; only if no children and parents inherited him then the siblings inherit.

             Summary: No spouse, no parents and children are present.

This is how I concluded that Kalalah "كلالة" means a man or a woman who survived their parents and their spouses and who might or might not have children; then It makes sense to ask what about Kalalah "كلالة" without children after the Kalalah "كلالة" with children is addressed in 4:12, and so the answer came in verse 4:176 " يَسْتَفْتُونَكَ قُلِ اللّهُ يُفْتِيكُمْ فِي الْكَلاَلَةِ إِنِ امْرُؤٌ هَلَكَ لَيْسَ لَهُ وَلَدٌ"


Is the above explanation not clear?


Can you point out where children inherit with uncles/aunts (siblings of the deceased)?

Only sibling of the deceased will inherit with children in Kalalah verse 4:12, no were else. No uncles or aunts of the deceased inherits anyway
The translation of the Book of God regardless of its style remains the understanding of the translator at the time of translation.

Samia

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Re: Alkalalah "الكلالة", what does it mean?
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2009, 09:23:46 AM »
Salaam mmouhammad
Peace sister,

Is the above explanation not clear?

No. It does not explain the meaning of kelalah.
You say:
Quote
1. The absence of the second spouse as per the logical sequence of the verse; where it starts by male without then with children; then by female without then with children; then the only case left is for single parent with children.
Who is the deceased? Isn’t he/she the first spouse?  Then there is no case left of single parent.

Quote
2. For only in the absence of the children, the parents will inherit " فَإِن لَّمْ يَكُن لَّهُ وَلَدٌ وَوَرِثَهُ أَبَوَاهُ " hence in that case there will no longer be a Kalalah "كلالة" and verse 4:11 is applicable.
Parents do inherit in presence of children. The verse simply says: “in case/if he/ she has no children and his parents inherit him/her”.  Besides, this verse is not in the context of kalalah.

Quote
3. The absence of both parents; this is confirmed as the verse continues to allot a maximum of 1/3 to brothers and sisters. This is also confirmed by verse 4:11, to each parent is 1/6 if he has children; only if no children and parents inherited him then the siblings inherit.
I agree with this rendition. But what does the kalalah have to do with this?


Only sibling of the deceased will inherit with children in Kalalah verse 4:12, no were else. No uncles or aunts of the deceased inherits anyway
I did not say uncles/aunts of the deceased, but of the children, who are then siblings of the deceased, as I put it in brackets.
Where are children of kalalah mentioned in 4:12? Verse 4:12 discusses spouses' share in presence and absence of children. The definition of kalalah as having children in this context is illogical, especially when siblings are mentioned. The other place where siblings of the eceased are mentioned as heirs is in verse 4:11 when there are no children (فَإِنْ لَمْ يَكُنْ لَهُ وَلَدٌ وَوَرِثَهُ أَبَوَاهُ فَلِأُمِّهِ الثُّلُثُ فَإِنْ كَانَ لَهُ إِخْوَةٌ فَلِأُمِّهِ السُّدُسُ/and if he have no son and his parents are his heirs, then to his mother appertaineth the third; and if he have brethren, then to his mother appertaineth the sixth). This definitely proves that kalalah does not have children, not the opposite.

mmouhammad

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Re: Alkalalah "الكلالة", what does it mean?
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2009, 09:32:03 AM »
Peace sister Samia

وَلَكُمْ نِصْفُ مَا تَرَكَ أَزْوَاجُكُمْ إِن لَّمْ يَكُن لَّهُنَّ وَلَدٌ فَإِن كَانَ لَهُنَّ وَلَدٌ فَلَكُمُ الرُّبُعُ مِمَّا تَرَكْنَ مِن بَعْدِ وَصِيَّةٍ يُوصِينَ بِهَا أَوْ دَيْنٍ وَلَهُنَّ الرُّبُعُ مِمَّا تَرَكْتُمْ إِن لَّمْ يَكُن لَّكُمْ وَلَدٌ فَإ ِن كَانَ لَكُمْ وَلَدٌ فَلَهُنَّ الثُّمُنُ مِمَّا تَرَكْتُم مِّن بَعْدِ وَصِيَّةٍ تُوصُونَ بِهَا أَوْ دَيْنٍ وَإِن كَانَ رَجُلٌ يُورَثُ كَلاَلَةً أَو امْرَأَةٌ وَلَهُ أَخٌ أَوْ أُخْتٌ فَلِكُلِّ وَاحِدٍ مِّنْهُمَا السُّدُسُ فَإِن كَانُوَاْ أَكْثَرَ مِن ذَلِكَ فَهُمْ شُرَكَاء فِي الثُّلُثِ مِن بَعْدِ وَصِيَّةٍ يُوصَى بِهَآ أَوْ دَيْنٍ غَيْرَ مُضَآرٍّ وَصِيَّةً مِّنَ اللّهِ وَاللّهُ عَلِيمٌ حَلِيمٌ 4:12

The first part of verse 4:12, includes three groups, Husband, wife and children with 5 logical cases to deal with, they are as follows:
1.   A man inheriting his wife with no children his share is 1/2
2.   A man inheriting his wife with children his share is 1/4
3.   A woman inheriting her husband with no children her share is 1/4
4.   A woman inheriting her husband with children her share is 1/8

5.   Children inheriting their single parent, one parent died long time before

Cases 1 to 4 takes us back to verse 4:11, parents' inheritance.

Case 5 continue with verse 4:12 to allot shares to brothers and sisters, a max of 1/3.

A man or a women being inherited "رَجُلٌ يُورَثُ " indicates that the deceased has Heirs, Children.

Why the Heirs are the children?
1.   Because they are not spouse since the spouses were dealt with in cases 1 to 4

2.   Because they are not parents, since if parents inherit, then the share of brothers and sisters will not be as stated in verse 4:12 but will be as in 4:11 and only if deceased has no children.

3.   Because children are the 3rd group mentioned in the 1st part of verse 4:12 and they are the only logical case that fit the with children case  no. 5 above and complement the logical case without children as mentioned in verse 4:176

The translation of the Book of God regardless of its style remains the understanding of the translator at the time of translation.

mmouhammad

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Re: Alkalalah "الكلالة", what does it mean?
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2009, 05:54:30 PM »
Peace all,

Alkalalah "الكلالة", what does it mean?

This is another attempt to express my understanding on the subject and the logic that lead to the definition of Kalalah as mentioned below. I hope I was able to convey the logic I used in a clearer way this time.

Thank you and God bless.

وَلَكُمْ نِصْفُ مَا تَرَكَ أَزْوَاجُكُمْ إِن لَّمْ يَكُن لَّهُنَّ وَلَدٌ فَإِن كَانَ لَهُنَّ وَلَدٌ فَلَكُمُ الرُّبُعُ مِمَّا تَرَكْنَ مِن بَعْدِ وَصِيَّةٍ يُوصِينَ بِهَا أَوْ دَيْنٍ وَلَهُنَّ الرُّبُعُ مِمَّا تَرَكْتُمْ إِن لَّمْ يَكُن لَّكُمْ وَلَدٌ فَإ ِن كَانَ لَكُمْ وَلَدٌ فَلَهُنَّ الثُّمُنُ مِمَّا تَرَكْتُم مِّن بَعْدِ وَصِيَّةٍ تُوصُونَ بِهَا أَوْ دَيْنٍ وَإِن كَانَ رَجُلٌ يُورَثُ كَلاَلَةً أَو امْرَأَةٌ وَلَهُ أَخٌ أَوْ أُخْتٌ فَلِكُلِّ وَاحِدٍ مِّنْهُمَا السُّدُسُ فَإِن كَانُوَاْ أَكْثَرَ مِن ذَلِكَ فَهُمْ شُرَكَاء فِي الثُّلُثِ مِن بَعْدِ وَصِيَّةٍ يُوصَى بِهَآ أَوْ دَيْنٍ غَيْرَ مُضَآرٍّ وَصِيَّةً مِّنَ اللّهِ وَاللّهُ عَلِيمٌ حَلِيمٌ 4:12

يَسْتَفْتُونَكَ قُلِ اللّهُ يُفْتِيكُمْ فِي الْكَلاَلَةِ إِنِ امْرُؤٌ هَلَكَ لَيْسَ لَهُ وَلَدٌ وَلَهُ أُخْتٌ فَلَهَا نِصْفُ مَا تَرَكَ وَهُوَ يَرِثُهَآ إِن لَّمْ يَكُن لَّهَا وَلَدٌ فَإِن كَانَتَا اثْنَتَيْنِ فَلَهُمَا الثُّلُثَانِ مِمَّا تَرَكَ وَإِن كَانُواْ إِخْوَةً رِّجَالاً وَنِسَاء فَلِلذَّكَرِ مِثْلُ حَظِّ الأُنثَيَيْنِ يُبَيِّنُ اللّهُ لَكُمْ أَن تَضِلُّواْ وَاللّهُ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ 4:176

From my reading the Kalalah "كلالة" means a person "man or woman" who out lived parents and spouse. The Kalalah is a description given to living persons who might or might not have children.

This subject is closely tied to the inheritance law as defined in the Quran and mentioned in two of the three related verses in chapter four, namely verse 4:12 and verse 4:176, listed above for reference.

Please read along to see how I reached this conclusion after a closer review of the related verses.

The term "you ra tho" "يُورَثُ" as in verse 4:12 … and if a man being inherited Kalalah "كلالة" or a woman, " وَإِن كَانَ رَجُلٌ يُورَثُ كَلاَلَةً أَو امْرَأَةٌ ", obviously indicates that there are heirs. So the most important point to make is to identify those heirs.
 
As per the inheritance verses, children, spouses, parents and siblings are the known heirs. Let us look at the beginning of Verse 4:11 God directs you regarding the inheritance of your children: " يُوصِيكُمُ اللّهُ فِي أَوْلاَدِكُمْ ". So let us assume that the heirs in verse 4:12 Kalalah case are children and see if we can eliminate other candidates or not.

Well, the first part of verse 4:12, includes three groups, Husband, wife and children with six logical cases to deal with, they are as follows:

1.   A man inheriting his wife with no children his share is 1/2
2.   A man inheriting his wife with children his share is 1/4

3.   A woman inheriting her husband with no children her share is 1/4
4.   A woman inheriting her husband with children her share is 1/8

5.   Children inheriting their single Father, Mother died some times ago
6.   Children inheriting their single Mother, Father died some times ago


Cases 1 to 4 are very clear tasks, if any case evaluated to true, it gets paid off, then moves to verse 4:11 to evaluate parents share. If there are parents then shares as per verse 4:11 will apply and the case will be closed.

However, since none of the cases above evaluates to true we move to next line in verse 4:12 and if a man being inherited Kalalah "كلالة" or a woman, " وَإِن كَانَ رَجُلٌ يُورَثُ كَلاَلَةً أَو امْرَأَةٌ ", in this verse God allocates shares to brothers and sisters, to a maximum of 1/3.

Now let us evaluate Cases 5 & 6 where we assumed children are heirs and see why that is the case.

Why the Heirs are the children?

1.   Because the Heirs are not spouses since the spouses were dealt with in cases 1 to 4 and none of their cases evaluated to true.

2.   Because the Heirs are not parents, since if parents are present, they inherit as per verse 4:11 and the share of brothers and sisters will be as in 4:11 and only if deceased has no children. However, since there are no parents present we are returned to verse 4:12 to continue the evaluation.

3.   Because children are the 3rd group mentioned in the 1st part of verse 4:12, cases 5 and 6 that complement the logic of cases 1 to 4.

4.   Because verse 4:12 and if a man being inherited Kalalah "كلالة" or a woman, " وَإِن كَانَ رَجُلٌ يُورَثُ كَلاَلَةً أَو امْرَأَةٌ ", with children are the only logical cases that complement the cases mentioned in verse 4:176 " يَسْتَفْتُونَكَ قُلِ اللّهُ يُفْتِيكُمْ فِي الْكَلاَلَةِ إِنِ امْرُؤٌ هَلَكَ لَيْسَ لَهُ وَلَدٌ" for "كلالة" Kalalah man or woman without children being inherited by siblings.

Conclusion: Kalalah "كلالة" means a person "man or woman" who out lived parents and spouse. The Kalalah is a description given to living persons who might or might not have children.

Therefore if a Kalalah "كلالة" person is out lived by children and siblings, verse 4:12 is applied else if a Kalalah "كلالة" person is out lived only by siblings and no children then verse 4:176 is applied.

Finally, check out the distribution logic as listed below and see if it stands variable cases.

All cases, spouse, parents, siblings and children:
•   If the deceased has a spouse, the condition defined at the beginning of verse 4:12 are evaluated.
    o   Case husband no children = 1/2 or 1/4 with children - payoff
    o   Case wife no children = 1/4 or 1/8 with children - payoff
•   Remainder: parents – second part of verse 4:11 is evaluated.
    o   Case parents no children = mother 1/3, father 2/3 concluded - payoff
           Case siblings = mother 1/6 reduced, siblings 5/6 shared with or without father "للذكر مثل حظ الانثيين" - payoff
    o   Case parents with children = each 1/6 - payoff
•   Remainder: to Children, the inheritance to be divided according to the 3 categories at the beginning of verse 4:11. pay off
•   The term "mima tarak مما ترك", from what he left "or is left" is always correct and applicable after every evaluation.

The Kalalah "كلالة" as in verse 4:12; deceased left no spouse or parents behind, only children.
•   If the deceased had a brother or a sister then for each is 1/6, if he had more than 2 brothers and sisters then they are all partners in the 1/3. The last part of verse 4:12 is evaluated. - payoff
•   The balance 2/3 will then be given to the children and will be divided according to the 3 categories at the beginning of verse 4:11. - payoff

The Kalalah "كلالة" as in verse 4:176; deceased left no spouse, parents or children behind.
•   Verse 4:176 is the only applicable verse, the remainder will be distributed to the near and relatives as known "بالمعروف". - payoff

The translation of the Book of God regardless of its style remains the understanding of the translator at the time of translation.

mmouhammad

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Re: Alkalalah "الكلالة", what does it mean?
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2009, 05:55:25 AM »
Peace all,

Here are my thoughts after I made a complete review and run all possible logical cases before reaching this conclusion.

Kalalah is the loss of the 2 parents. The Kalil might or might not have children. 
الكلالة هي فقد الابوين، و الكليل الذي فقد ابويه، قد يكون له ولد وقد لا يكون له ولد.

1.   Main inheritors are Spouses, Parents and Children.
2.   The Siblings are Alternative inheritors.
a.   Siblings will inherit as alternatives to children along with any or both of their parents.
          i.   When the deceased has parents but not children, sibling's share will be that of the children divided amongst them as per the conditions at the beginning of verse 4:11.
          ii.   This inheritance is confirmed in second part of verse 4:11. And to his parents to each is 1/6 if he has children so if he has no children then to his mother is 1/3 but if he has siblings then to his mother is 1/6.
         iii.   As you can see, when has no children but has siblings, the mother's share is reduced back to 1/6; this is same as if he has children.
b.   Siblings will inherit as alternatives to their parents along with children.
          i.   When the deceased has children but not parents, Kalalah verse 4:12, siblings share will be that of the parents, max. 1/3.
          ii.    This is confirmed by verse 4:12 and if he has a brother or a sister to each is 1/6.
c.   Siblings will inherit as alternatives when deceased has no parents and has no children.
          i.   This is Kalalah with no children as confirmed by verse 4:176.
d.   Siblings, being alternative inheritors, they will not inherit when parents and children are present.
 
The following if then statements use my current logical understanding of the 3 verses of chapter 4 of the Quran.

•   Someone died, who inherits what? – The following logical cases will cover all possibilities.

   IF Deceased has children
          •   Husband's share is 1/4 – verse 4:12
                          OR
          •   Wife's share is 1/8 – verse 4:12
          •   IF Deceased has parents THEN
                      o   To Deceased's parents each is 1/6 – verse 4:11
                      o   To Children the balance divided as per verse 4:11
          •   Else IF Deceased has no parents THEN "Kalalah in 4:12"
                      o   IF Deceased has a brother or sister THEN
                                      to each is 1/6
                      o   Else IF Deceased has > 2 siblings THEN
                                      Siblings share 1/3
                      o   End IF
                      o   Balance to Children divided as per verse 4:11
          •   End IF
             Case concluded and inheritance distributed.

   Else IF Deceased has no children THEN
          •   Husband's share is 1/2 – verse 4:12
                          OR
          •   Wife's share is 1/4 – verse 4:12
          •   IF Deceased has parents THEN
                       o   IF Deceased has siblings THEN
                                      To Deceased's mother is 1/6 – verse 4:11
                       o   Else "no siblings; being inherited by parents"
                                      To Deceased's mother is 1/3 – verse 4:11
                       o   End IF
           •   Else IF Deceased has no parents THEN
                         Kalalah verse 4:176 is applied
           •   End IF
   End IF
             Case concluded and inheritance distributed.

The translation of the Book of God regardless of its style remains the understanding of the translator at the time of translation.

Samia

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Re: Alkalalah "الكلالة", what does it mean?
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2009, 12:50:13 PM »

b.   Siblings will inherit as alternatives to their parents along with children.
          i.   When the deceased has children but not parents, Kalalah verse 4:12, siblings share will be that of the parents, max. 1/3.
          ii.    This is confirmed by verse 4:12 and if he has a brother or a sister to each is 1/6.


Salaam Mahmoud

Verse 12 does not speak of children at all. It starts by the share of spouses, who did not appear in 4:11. Children's share had been concluded in 4:11 too.
"If he has a brother or sister to each is 1/6" does not show that he has children. The rest goes to the spouse who is the subject of verse 4:12. When children were discussed (4:11) siblings were not mentioned until the end of the verse that discussed parents' share without children.

herefore, kelala is parentless and childless.

Eid Abdullah

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Re: Alkalalah "الكلالة", what does it mean?
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2009, 01:37:32 PM »
Salaam Samia,

Verse 12 does not speak of children at all. It starts by the share of spouses, who did not appear in 4:11. Children's share had been concluded in 4:11 too.
"If he has a brother or sister to each is 1/6" does not show that he has children. The rest goes to the spouse who is the subject of verse 4:12. When children were discussed (4:11) siblings were not mentioned until the end of the verse that discussed parents' share without children.

herefore, kelala is parentless and childless.

Qur'an did not come with verse numbers, it is one contiguous passage in context...

‏يوصيكم الله في اولادكم للذكر مثل حظ الانثيين فان كن نساء فوق اثنتين فلهن ثلثا ماترك وان كانت واحدة فلها النصف ولابويه لكل واحد منهما السدس مما ترك ان كان له ولد فان لم يكن له ولد وورثه ابواه فلامه الثلث فان كان له اخوة فلامه السدس من بعد وصية يوصي بها او دين اباؤكم وابناؤكم لاتدرون ايهم اقرب لكم نفعا فريضة من الله ان الله كان عليما حكيما ‏4:12 ولكم نصف ماترك ازواجكم ان لم يكن لهن ولد فان كان لهن ولد فلكم الربع مما تركن من بعد وصية يوصين بها او دين ولهن الربع مما تركتم ان لم يكن لكم ولد فان كان لكم ولد فلهن الثمن مما تركتم من بعد وصية توصون بها او دين وان كان رجل يورث كلالة او امراة وله اخ او اخت فلكل واحد منهما السدس فان كانوا اكثر من ذلك فهم شركاء في الثلث من بعد وصية يوصى بهااو دين غير مضار وصية من الله والله عليم حليم

This part (i.e. verse 4:176 we use for reference only) does not speak of children...

They ask your clarification, say: "God decrees in alkalalati, if human died, not for him a child,
and for him a sister, so for her half what he left, and he inherits her if was not for her a child,
and if they were two, so to them the two thirds from what he left,
and if they were brethren men and women, so to the male equal fortune the two females,
God clarifies for you that you (not) be misguided, and God is with everything knowledgeable.


Peace


Samia

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Re: Alkalalah "الكلالة", what does it mean?
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2009, 03:46:38 PM »
Qur'an did not come with verse numbers, it is one contiguous passage in context...
Salaam Eid
This is the second time you make this meaningless comment to me, as if I am the only person on this forum who uses verse numbers.
Quote
This part (i.e. verse 4:176 we use for reference only) does not speak of children...
And I was using the verse numbers for what? To invoke some magical forces? What's the difference between this line of yours and any line of mine?

Where did I say verse 4:176 speaks of children?
Quote
وصيكم الله في اولادكم للذكر مثل حظ الانثيين فان كن نساء فوق اثنتين فلهن ثلثا ماترك وان كانت واحدة فلها النصف ولابويه لكل واحد منهما السدس مما ترك ان كان له ولد فان لم يكن له ولد وورثه ابواه فلامه الثلث فان كان له اخوة فلامه السدس من بعد وصية يوصي بها او دين اباؤكم وابناؤكم لاتدرون ايهم اقرب لكم نفعا فريضة من الله ان الله كان عليما حكيما ‏4:12 ولكم نصف ماترك ازواجكم ان لم يكن لهن ولد فان كان لهن ولد فلكم الربع مما تركن من بعد وصية يوصين بها او دين ولهن الربع مما تركتم ان لم يكن لكم ولد فان كان لكم ولد فلهن الثمن مما تركتم من بعد وصية توصون بها او دين وان كان رجل يورث كلالة او امراة وله اخ او اخت فلكل واحد منهما السدس فان كانوا اكثر من ذلك فهم شركاء في الثلث من بعد وصية يوصى بهااو دين غير مضار وصية من الله والله عليم حليم
This is funny! You say it is " one contiguous passage in context...", yet you insert "4:12".
If you removed the "4:12", would you put the whole thing in "one contiguous passage" or in different paragraphs?

Would it have made any difference if I said "paragraph marked 4:11..."?
I do not see any valuable criticism for what I wrote except this intimidating comment.