hajj / feast / debate

[mmkhan]

Selam mmkhan ,

So do you believe anywhere that you can get livestock .... :|... sorry it's 3am here ...

Peace

Salaam Shushi,

  Sorry no idea about the highlighted part above.

About Kaaba I believe it has to be something coming out of ground naturally not man-made structure over the ground. It took from 5:6 where Allah used the word "kaabaiyni" that means "two kaabaas" if you notice, these kaabaiyni referred to two edge of "fibula and tibia" bones of our legs called malleolus. Images below shows you what kaabaiyni is referring to, inshaAllah.




So, kaaba has to be a end part of long structure or else self grown out area from the ground level. This is my personal understanding about Kaaba, if anyone find it wrong please do correct me.


May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path 
mmKhan

[sushi1992]

Salaam Shushi,

  Sorry no idea about the highlighted part above.

About Kaaba I believe it has to be something coming out of ground naturally not man-made structure over the ground. It took from 5:6 where Allah used the word "kaabaiyni" that means "two kaabaas" if you notice, these kaabaiyni referred to two edge of "fibula and tibia" bones of our legs called malleolus. Images below shows you what kaabaiyni is referring to, inshaAllah.




So, kaaba has to be a end part of long structure or else self grown out area from the ground level. This is my personal understanding about Kaaba, if anyone find it wrong please do correct me.


May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path 
mmKhan

Selam mmKhan,

I always thought of kaaba as a sanctuary but this explanation has slightly confused me. Could you think of any place that fits your description of maybe a structure self grown out area from ground level as you say .

Peace

[mmkhan]

Selam mmKhan,

I always thought of kaaba as a sanctuary but this explanation has slightly confused me. Could you think of any place that fits your description of maybe a structure self grown out area from ground level as you say .

Peace

Salaam Sushi,

Yesterday one of my friend researching about Kaaba said that every joint of bones in our body called "Ka'aab'' from which Kaaba is derived. I have no idea about this, still I am trying to learn n study further.

It is not yet clear to me that Kaaba [self grown out area from ground] is physical or non physical place. Brother Bender may put some light on this further inshaAllah. It is not yet clear to me because what could be the purpose of having a physical place? I did not understand logic behind it. Anyway, this is not my conclusion, but still I am in doubt.

BTW, physical self grown area could be mountains or hills they came out of ground. If it is physical then we can try to find out by Allah's permission, inshaAllah.


May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path 
mmKhan

[JKRethland]

Salaams
I will stick to hajj/pilgrimage as supposedly being to Mecca, but that the hadith additions are false until "everyone" can prove 100% that its different. Only problem is we cant make hajj there because its run by non Quran Only people and they dont accept Us as being Muslims and there is pagan practices being performed during the hajj there,so it would have to be purged from all its heathenism before we could make pilgrimage.

At one time I was thinking it was to baca valley in Israel, but that was just a small valley that people traveled through to get to Mt.Zion aka the Temple Mount and not a  pilgrimage site itself.

Then I was thinking it was some where in the desert of Paran, as this is mentioned in Genesis 20: 21God was with the boy(Ishmael) as he grew up. He lived in the desert and learned to shoot with a bow. 21 While he was living in the Desert of Paran, his mother got him a wife from Egypt.







May Allah forgive me for my wrongs and lead us all to Guidance and Understanding, inshaAllah.

[JKRethland]

Nahal Nekarot Israel Paran

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/72916627

[Ashraf]

Brother Wakas, you are one of the most knowledgeable researchers of the great reading that I know. You have produced one of the most helpful research tools in PRLonline. In fact, you helped me a great deal in achieving my present understanding. Here is what you said on the translation of “haj” on PRL:

حجج
= Haa-Jiim-Jiim = to intend to a certain target, aim at, repair, undertake, repaired/betook himself to or towards a person / place / object of veneration/respect/honour, went/visit frequently/repeatedly, pilgrimage.
Overcome another by/in argument/evidences/proofs/testimonies, plead, contend/argue/dispute.
Refrain/abstain.

Hmm… no “debate” here. But maybe we missed it because Lane Lexicon has 3 pages on “haj” and thus in the tens of meanings it would have been easy to miss it. So let’s look at Lane’s:


Lane's Lexicon, Volume 2, page: 149, 150, 151

HAJJ = OVERCOME ANOTHER BY

This is the best translation i think from PRL.

What does it mean by OVERCOME ANOTHER BY ?

HAJJ was instructed to be organized by Prophet Ibrahim to OVERCOME the HUNTING RESTRICTION ENFORCEMENT PERIOD. Since the people couldnt longer have their diet supply from the wildlife during Shahral Haram, AN ALTERNATIVE SUPPLY must be in place, which is THE LIVESTOCK (bahimah al-anam). This provide a way out because of the restriction and this is what HAJJ is all about.


HAJJ is not a mindless ritual (spinning cube with 2 piece towel). It is about STOCKPILING Bayt Al-Haram with LIVESTOCK. During this 3 months, nearby neighbouring people of all believe (Especially Non Muslim) came here to take their supply and understand God universal Law of Hunting Restriction.


This event provide opportunity to Prophet Ibrahim to explain to Hajj guest about the importance of observing this Universal Law, that is to preserve wildlife for balance ECOSYSTEM for the long term benefit of mankind.


Wildlife is the original creation of God, the original seed which later from it, people undertake domestication process where some of the wildlife species becoming our main food supply.


WE must love and protect this wildlife as one of our major obligation to Allah and services to the people.


This is the forgotten law, that has caused the wildlife extinction all over the world.


Peace.

[ayman]

HAJJ = OVERCOME ANOTHER BY
This is the best translation i think from PRL.
What does it mean by OVERCOME ANOTHER BY ?
HAJJ was instructed to be organized by Prophet Ibrahim to OVERCOME the HUNTING RESTRICTION ENFORCEMENT PERIOD. Since the people couldnt longer have their diet supply from the wildlife during Shahral Haram, AN ALTERNATIVE SUPPLY must be in place, which is THE LIVESTOCK (bahimah al-anam). This provide a way out because of the restriction and this is what HAJJ is all about.
HAJJ is not a mindless ritual (spinning cube with 2 piece towel). It is about STOCKPILING Bayt Al-Haram with LIVESTOCK. During this 3 months, nearby neighbouring people of all believe (Especially Non Muslim) came here to take their supply and understand God universal Law of Hunting Restriction.
This event provide opportunity to Prophet Ibrahim to explain to Hajj guest about the importance of observing this Universal Law, that is to preserve wildlife for balance ECOSYSTEM for the long term benefit of mankind.
Wildlife is the original creation of God, the original seed which later from it, people undertake domestication process where some of the wildlife species becoming our main food supply.
WE must love and protect this wildlife as one of our major obligation to Allah and services to the people.
This is the forgotten law, that has caused the wildlife extinction all over the world.

I agree. It is closely related to the hunting restriction. It is definitely an amazing sign that all those three things come together at that time:

1. The best time for hunting restriction.
2. The harvest.
3. The time when lifestock is most plentiful.

Peace,

Ayman

[noshirk]

to ayman

what do you think about this ? (i reproduce a post)
it is near of what you think
***************
salam

I will try to traduce part of the french article found here (http://nawaat.org/portail/2012/07/24/ibadat-el-chouyoukhs-5-la-grande-utopie-de-la-reforme-et-le-bonus-dukhanus/)

Let begin with this verse

2:187 It has been made lawful for you during the night of fasting to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knows that you used to betray your souls so He has accepted your repentance, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what God has written for you. And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in the temples. These are the boundaries of God, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God clarifies His revelations to the people who they may be righteous.

We can note that drinking and eating until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn doesn’t mean clearly that we can’t no more eat at all after. This kind of deduction would make the interdiction of approaching women redundant.

Now, the true definition of fasting is given here:

19:26 "So eat and drink and be happy. If you see any human being, then say: 'I have vowed an abstinence for the Almighty, so I will not talk today to any of mankind.'"

Comparison between of two descriptions of the same miracle of God:

19:10 He said: "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said: "Your sign is that you will not speak to the people for three nights consecutively."

And
3:41 He said: "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said: "Your sign is not to speak to the people for three days except by symbol, and remember your Lord greatly, and glorify at dusk and dawn."

Leads to deduce that Zachariah was already fasting (not speaking)  during day.

Comparaison of :
2:183 O you who believe, fasting has been decreed for you as it was decreed for those before you, perhaps you may be righteous.2:184 A few number of days; however, if any of you is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days; and as for those who can do so but with difficulty, they may redeem by feeding the needy. And whoever does good voluntarily, then it is better for him. And if you fast it is better for you if only you knew.

and

2:203 And remember God during a few number of days. Whoever hurries to two days, there is no sin upon him; and whoever delays, there is no sin upon him if he is being righteous. And be aware of God, and know that it is to Him that you will be gathered.

Using the marker “few number of days” (Ayyamm maadoudat) leads to identify also remembering god few days with siyyam

So fasting is a spiritual retreat.
The rest of proofs comes from the meaning of Ramadan.

From Arabic dictionary, we found that:
والرَّمَضِيُّ من السحاب والمطر: ما كان في آخر القَيْظِ وأَوّلِ الخَرِيف، فالسحابُ رَمَضِيٌّ والمطر رَمَضِيٌّ، وإِنما سمي رَمَضِيّاً لأِنه يدرك سُخونة الشمس وحرّها.
والرَّمَضُ المطر يأْتي قُبُلَ الخريف فيجد الأَرض حارّة محترقة.

Ramadhyou means first rains after the summer.
So Shahr Ramadan can mean, according to ayman’s meaning of shar, the full moon of September.

The expression laylatou el Qadr can also mean the night of perfect measure between day and night, wich would be the autumn equinox. The expression Qadr is used many times to mean measure (54-49) and expressly use for measure between days and night length in verse :

73:20 Your Lord knows that you rise a little less than two thirds of the night, and half of it, and one third of it; and a group of those who are with you. And God measures (YOUKADDIROU)  the night and the day……

We know that shahr Ramadan and laylatou el Qadr (night of decree ??) are the same since it is when quran was revealead and it is when angels and spirit descent.

Using dates  and verse 19-25, we knows that rouh (spirit) descended on Issa on a day where dates are rutab. Also that period.
The announce of issa to meriem was done during a retreat (3-45 and 19-16 and 19-21). The birth of issa was during another retreat (19-22)

The annonce of Yahia to Zachariah was also, as we have seen, during the period of retreat.

The ten days of retreat are clearly emphasized for Moses during a period of revelation (7-142). (yom kippour ? is around this period)

The verse 2-196 seems to indicate that fasting and hajj are at the same period.
Hajj is here with the meaning of debate and a kind of festival where unbelievers are called to debate with muslims making the Hajj.

Another interesting coincidence is that there is a jewish festival  during the full moon just after the equinox of autumn. And the more interesting is that this festival is called souccot and that souccout means silence in Arabic.

so Hajj and fasting are the ten days dedicated to god and to his message by spititual retreat or debating with unbelievers.

Peace

[ayman]

Peace Noshirk,

Let begin with this verse
2:187 It has been made lawful for you during the night of fasting to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knows that you used to betray your souls so He has accepted your repentance, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what God has written for you. And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in the temples. These are the boundaries of God, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God clarifies His revelations to the people who they may be righteous.
We can note that drinking and eating until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn doesn’t mean clearly that we can’t no more eat at all after. This kind of deduction would make the interdiction of approaching women redundant.
Now, the true definition of fasting is given here:
19:26 "So eat and drink and be happy. If you see any human being, then say: 'I have vowed an abstinence for the Almighty, so I will not talk today to any of mankind.'"
Comparison between of two descriptions of the same miracle of God:
19:10 He said: "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said: "Your sign is that you will not speak to the people for three nights consecutively."
And
3:41 He said: "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said: "Your sign is not to speak to the people for three days except by symbol, and remember your Lord greatly, and glorify at dusk and dawn."
Leads to deduce that Zachariah was already fasting (not speaking)  during day.
Comparaison of :
2:183 O you who believe, fasting has been decreed for you as it was decreed for those before you, perhaps you may be righteous.2:184 A few number of days; however, if any of you is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days; and as for those who can do so but with difficulty, they may redeem by feeding the needy. And whoever does good voluntarily, then it is better for him. And if you fast it is better for you if only you knew.
and
2:203 And remember God during a few number of days. Whoever hurries to two days, there is no sin upon him; and whoever delays, there is no sin upon him if he is being righteous. And be aware of God, and know that it is to Him that you will be gathered.
Using the marker “few number of days” (Ayyamm maadoudat) leads to identify also remembering god few days with siyyam
So fasting is a spiritual retreat.

Strictly speaking "siyam" means to "abstain". I agree that it is an exercise that is part of a spiritual retreat. Also, if you look at 2:183-185 and how 2:185 says that the god brought down the great reading with guidance and then concludes by saying that part of the exercise is to magnify the god for what he has guided you, then being guided to the correct timing from the great reading is definitely a big part.

The rest of proofs comes from the meaning of Ramadan.
From Arabic dictionary, we found that:
والرَّمَضِيُّ من السحاب والمطر: ما كان في آخر القَيْظِ وأَوّلِ الخَرِيف، فالسحابُ رَمَضِيٌّ والمطر رَمَضِيٌّ، وإِنما سمي رَمَضِيّاً لأِنه يدرك سُخونة الشمس وحرّها.
والرَّمَضُ المطر يأْتي قُبُلَ الخريف فيجد الأَرض حارّة محترقة.
Ramadhyou means first rains after the summer.
So Shahr Ramadan can mean, according to ayman’s meaning of shar, the full moon of September.

This is where I disagree. The primary meaning is scorching heat. As per the dictionary, the rain of late summer/early fall is called so because it catches up with the extreme heat of the summer. So still the primary meaning is scorching heat. In this case, when applied to rain/clouds. It literally means hot rain/clouds. Similarly, when it is applied to the full moon it literally means hot full-moon, which is definitely the one after the summer solstice and not the one in the fall.

The expression laylatou el Qadr can also mean the night of perfect measure between day and night, wich would be the autumn equinox. The expression Qadr is used many times to mean measure (54-49) and expressly use for measure between days and night length in verse :
73:20 Your Lord knows that you rise a little less than two thirds of the night, and half of it, and one third of it; and a group of those who are with you. And God measures (YOUKADDIROU)  the night and the day……

There is a big difference between measure and equivalence. There is no basis for making the jump from measure to equivalence. There are two issues with the idea of the autumn equinox:
1. The full-moon doesn't necessarily fall on the night of the autumn equinox, which according to this understanding is the reason for the word "measure".
2. Since there are 2 equinoxes, you can't measure the year using the equinox, which contradicts 17:12 where we are clearly told that the day and night are used to measure the year. The only way you can measure the year this way is using the solstices.

A simpler and more correct explanation that doesn't force the meaning of "equivalence" is that the term "measure" in this case simply refers to the measure of the stages of the moon from full to crescent as confirmed by 36:39:

36:39. And the moon We have measured ("qadarnahu") it in descending stages, until it returns like an old curved sheath.

We know that shahr Ramadan and laylatou el Qadr (night of decree ??) are the same since it is when quran was revealead and it is when angels and spirit descent.
Using dates  and verse 19-25, we knows that rouh (spirit) descended on Issa on a day where dates are rutab. Also that period.
The announce of issa to meriem was done during a retreat (3-45 and 19-16 and 19-21). The birth of issa was during another retreat (19-22)

The whole idea of using the maturity of dates produced by the palm trees is not accurate. Firstly, different species of dates mature at different times. I have personally visited the Sinai peninsula during the month of July and saw the mature yellow dates of its palms fall on the ground. Also, the act of a woman in labor shaking a palm tree and getting dates is not normal. Either the dates will fall by themselves or someone will have to pick them up. Those palm trees are huge and a woman in labor would hardly be able to shake them. So the episode definitely involves divine intervention, which means that the dates didn't necessarily follow their normal maturity cycle.

The annonce of Yahia to Zachariah was also, as we have seen, during the period of retreat.
The ten days of retreat are clearly emphasized for Moses during a period of revelation (7-142). (yom kippour ? is around this period)
The verse 2-196 seems to indicate that fasting and hajj are at the same period.

2:196 simply indicates that they are both a few days, not necessarily the same few days. Also, the harvest feast/hagg is known full-moons (plural) and not a single time in the year like "ramadan".

Hajj is here with the meaning of debate and a kind of festival where unbelievers are called to debate with muslims making the Hajj.

This has been extensively discussed on this thread and the conclusion is that "hagg" means feast, which was also the pre-existing Hebrew meaning at the time the great reading descended.

Another interesting coincidence is that there is a jewish festival  during the full moon just after the equinox of autumn. And the more interesting is that this festival is called souccot and that souccout means silence in Arabic.
so Hajj and fasting are the ten days dedicated to god and to his message by spititual retreat or debating with unbelievers.

I believe that the Sukoot in Hebrew means the tent or temporary housing people build when they travel or go outside. This seems more related to the retreat aspect as well as the harvest aspect. Also, the Hagg Sukoot always coincides with the fourth full-moon after the summer solstice. Since we know that we have four restricted full-moons, then this would make it the final harvest full-moon. So the first restricted full-moon is for fasting and the 2nd is for the first harvest feast, the third is for the middle harvest feast and the fourth is for the final harvest feast. The harvest feast can be done during any of the three or all three depending on the region and the optimal availability of food for the feast.

Peace,

Ayman

[Ashraf]

This has been extensively discussed on this thread and the conclusion is that "hagg" means feast, which was also the pre-existing Hebrew meaning at the time the great reading descended.

Peace bro Ayman,


I understand that some arabs pronounce "jamal" as "gamal" but i couldnt comprehend if they could pronounce the following "fain hajju faqul..." as "fain haggu faqul.."


Hajj, although have a lot to do with feast, but the translation hajj=feast may not cover the definition of hajj in quranic perspective. Eg. Hadiy, abstaintion, no rafas, no fusuq, no jidal, instruction, doing business, exposure/education on what restriction law is all about etc.


Thus "Hajj" may best translated as "Overcome" or "Counter" action to be taken due to the hunting restriction.


Solstice as the measurement marker for a year look more promising than equinox. I agree you will not get equal day time and equal night time on full moon, during equinox.


On Aiyam madudat, quranic definition from my understanding is min 2 day max 10 day. (Faman ta'ajala fi yaumaini.." vs "tilka asyaratun kamilah").


Peace.