hajj / feast / debate

[ayman]

Peace brother Ashraf

I understand that some arabs pronounce "jamal" as "gamal" but i couldnt comprehend if they could pronounce the following "fain hajju faqul..." as "fain haggu faqul.."

There is no difference in Arabic between "hagg" and "hajj" and it is just a variant in how they are pronounced. It is like the word "issue" in English where the "ss" can be pronounced as a "sh" or as a "s" but the meaning is exactly the same.

Hajj, although have a lot to do with feast, but the translation hajj=feast may not cover the definition of hajj in quranic perspective. Eg. Hadiy, abstaintion, no rafas, no fusuq, no jidal, instruction, doing business, exposure/education on what restriction law is all about etc.
Thus "Hajj" may best translated as "Overcome" or "Counter" action to be taken due to the hunting restriction.

The hunting restriction is related to "hagg" as far as that "hagg"/feast provides an alternative source of food for those who normally rely on hunting. So it again goes back to the food which is definitely a primary aspect of the feast. Thus, note that if someone violates the restriction and kills a wild animal, then they must compensate by providing livestock that must reach the inviolable house where the feast takes place.

Solstice as the measurement marker for a year look more promising than equinox. I agree you will not get equal day time and equal night time on full moon, during equinox.

Yes. The solstice is the ONLY way to implement 17:12.

On Aiyam madudat, quranic definition from my understanding is min 2 day max 10 day. (Faman ta'ajala fi yaumaini.." vs "tilka asyaratun kamilah").

The minimum is 3 days and max is 10 days. The 2 days is an exception to "ayyam madudat" for those who are hurried. Therefore, they are told that it is OK to do it in 2 days. Had 2 days been understood as already the min of "ayyam madudat" then the "no blame on him who hurries in 2 days" clause wouldn't be needed.

Peace,

Ayman

[noshirk]

Thank you brother ayman
sorry for my english
i liked very much your articles about dates, hajj, salat, siyyam etc.

This is where I disagree. The primary meaning is scorching heat. As per the dictionary, the rain of late summer/early fall is called so because it catches up with the extreme heat of the summer. So still the primary meaning is scorching heat. In this case, when applied to rain/clouds. It literally means hot rain/clouds. Similarly, when it is applied to the full moon it literally means hot full-moon, which is definitely the one after the summer solstice and not the one in the fall.

There is a big difference between measure and equivalence. There is no basis for making the jump from measure to equivalence. There are two issues with the idea of the autumn equinox:
1. The full-moon doesn't necessarily fall on the night of the autumn equinox, which according to this understanding is the reason for the word "measure".
2. Since there are 2 equinoxes, you can't measure the year using the equinox, which contradicts 17:12 where we are clearly told that the day and night are used to measure the year. The only way you can measure the year this way is using the solstices.

A simpler and more correct explanation that doesn't force the meaning of "equivalence" is that the term "measure" in this case simply refers to the measure of the stages of the moon from full to crescent as confirmed by 36:39:

36:39. And the moon We have measured ("qadarnahu") it in descending stages, until it returns like an old curved sheath.

The whole idea of using the maturity of dates produced by the palm trees is not accurate. Firstly, different species of dates mature at different times. I have personally visited the Sinai peninsula during the month of July and saw the mature yellow dates of its palms fall on the ground. Also, the act of a woman in labor shaking a palm tree and getting dates is not normal. Either the dates will fall by themselves or someone will have to pick them up. Those palm trees are huge and a woman in labor would hardly be able to shake them. So the episode definitely involves divine intervention, which means that the dates didn't necessarily follow their normal maturity cycle.

sorry but i am not convinced. There is no reason to prefer "scorching heat" interpretation to first autumn rains. They are both true linguistical meanings. Putting all arguments asides, i prefer the autumn interpretation.

your interpretation of laylatou el qadar give no precise date. The equinox interpretation give two possible dates in the year and meaning of ramadhan select wich one is the true one. The shar ramadhan would be the first shahr after the autum equinox. Exceptionnal years where equinox coincide with shahr can be one of the years where revelation occured for Muhammad, as quran says. There is no reason to consider laylatou el qadr and laylatou ramadhan occuring the same night every year.

Now i have some doubts concerning interpretation that leads to shahr=Full Moon.
Perhaps shahr=new moon.
the reason i doubted is this page http://www.fourmilab.ch/earthview/pacalc.html
autumn equinox of year 610 was a night of new moon.

2:196 simply indicates that they are both a few days, not necessarily the same few days. Also, the harvest feast/hagg is known full-moons (plural) and not a single time in the year like "ramadan".

sorry. But 2.196 clearly indicates that siyyam is required for those who made only Omra. Why it is required for them and not for those who made neither Hajj nor omra ?
i think that it is logical to assume that making Hajj can gives dispense for siyyam if a hady is done. So, the periode of siyyam is also a period of Hajj (reverse is false)

I believe that the Sukoot in Hebrew means the tent or temporary housing people build when they travel or go outside. This seems more related to the retreat aspect as well as the harvest aspect. Also, the Hagg Sukoot always coincides with the fourth full-moon after the summer solstice. Since we know that we have four restricted full-moons, then this would make it the final harvest full-moon. So the first restricted full-moon is for fasting and the 2nd is for the first harvest feast, the third is for the middle harvest feast and the fourth is for the final harvest feast. The harvest feast can be done during any of the three or all three depending on the region and the optimal availability of food for the feast.

I think that there is no indication in Quran that the 4 periods of Hajj are consecutive.
The expression ashor maaloumat can mean:
- try deductions
-see hadiths
-see thora and what remains of traditions of belivers before muhammad
-other thing

I think that the true interpretation is the third. In older traditions of monotheists, Feats are not consecutive months.
I think that quran ask us to see other "cultures" to complete our religion.
I think that quran ask us to consider other real  believers (jews, christians, zoroasters ...) as muslims to god even if that they don't believe in quran and Muhammad. It is surprising but logical if we read quran. The numeros verses speaking about prophets before Muhammad is not a simple waste of time in the quran. I am now convinced that muslim for God is not the usual sense of Muslim nowadays and that not only "muslims" are muslims.


Peace

[ayman]

Peace brothee Noshirk,

Thank you brother ayman
sorry for my english
i liked very much your articles about dates, hajj, salat, siyyam etc.

No worries. Please let me know if you speak Arabic and if you prefer we can converse in Arabic and English.

sorry but i am not convinced. There is no reason to prefer "scorching heat" interpretation to first autumn rains. They are both true linguistical meanings. Putting all arguments asides, i prefer the autumn interpretation.
your interpretation of laylatou el qadar give no precise date.

It is tied to the most obvious natural phenomenon of the full-moon, specifically "shahr ramadan" is precisely the full-moon after the summer solstice.

The equinox interpretation give two possible dates in the year and meaning of ramadhan select wich one is the true one. The shar ramadhan would be the first shahr after the autum equinox. Exceptionnal years where equinox coincide with shahr can be one of the years where revelation occured for Muhammad, as quran says. There is no reason to consider laylatou el qadr and laylatou ramadhan occuring the same night every year.

This violates 17:12 where we are clearly told that the year is not based on the equinoxes but is based on one of the solstices.

Now i have some doubts concerning interpretation that leads to shahr=Full Moon.
Perhaps shahr=new moon.
the reason i doubted is this page http://www.fourmilab.ch/earthview/pacalc.html
autumn equinox of year 610 was a night of new moon.

There is no linguistic basis for shahr=new moon. None of the dictionaries gives this meaning. On the other hand, the dictionary clearly says that it means full-moon.

sorry. But 2.196 clearly indicates that siyyam is required for those who made only Omra. Why it is required for them and not for those who made neither Hajj nor omra ?
i think that it is logical to assume that making Hajj can gives dispense for siyyam if a hady is done. So, the periode of siyyam is also a period of Hajj (reverse is false)

It is required as a compensation for not providing food for the feast. If you translate "hajj" and "omra" then you will be able to better understand how everything is connected.

I think that there is no indication in Quran that the 4 periods of Hajj are consecutive.
The expression ashor maaloumat can mean:
- try deductions
-see hadiths
-see thora and what remains of traditions of belivers before muhammad
-other thing

The inviolable full-moons are definitely consecutive as per 9:5.

As for the "known full-moons", they are the harvest full-moons that everyone knows. With the correct translation of "hagg" as "harvest feast", the question answers itself. All people know when their harvest is and therefore when their harvest feast where they thank the god for the harvest and share food with the poor and needy take place. They also know that during the harvest time when food is plentiful, it is also the best time to restrict hunting so as to preserve wild life while at the same time have alternative source of food. They also know that this is the time where lifestock is most plentiful.

I think that the true interpretation is the third. In older traditions of monotheists, Feats are not consecutive months.
I think that quran ask us to see other "cultures" to complete our religion.
I think that quran ask us to consider other real  believers (jews, christians, zoroasters ...) as muslims to god even if that they don't believe in quran and Muhammad. It is surprising but logical if we read quran. The numeros verses speaking about prophets before Muhammad is not a simple waste of time in the quran. I am now convinced that muslim for God is not the usual sense of Muslim nowadays and that not only "muslims" are muslims.

Harvest feasts are on consecutive full-moons, first harvest, middle harvest and final harvest. The "Hagg Sukot" of the people of the book has its roots and timing as a harvest feast. I don't think that the answer is "traditions". To me saying that the answer is "traditions" is another way of saying "I don't know and I give up".

Peace,

Ayman

[noshirk]

thank you brother ayman.
I read and write arabic. my second langage is french and the third is english
i can understand english very well and we can continue in english if you forgive my grammary mistakes and my style.

Now, verse 9-5 says when "insalakha el alshor el haram".
We both agree that ashor in no more a 30 day period. So even if they are consecutive as you say, there is an interruption of 20 days between them. If we accept 20 days interruption wa can accept more.
Now clearly, for me, assuming that ashor are consecutive is only a deduction that can be false.

I can understand 9-5 by, "after each insilakh".
Now if Hajj lasts for only 10 days. Consecutive Shahr hypothesis leads to 10 days of Hajj, pause and return home for 20 days, back to hajj for 10 days, pause and return home for 20 days etc...
Assuming that Hajj is not during consecutive month leads to a more equilibrated repartition of periods of Hajj during the year.
Notice also that the interruption of 20 days invalidates in someways the arguments that interdiction of hunting during "the period were wa are horomon".is for taking care of the fauna and wildlife. It is also an adhoc argument.

I have read many times verse 17-12. I cannot see why you think it points towards solistices and exclude equinoxes.
But the expression laylatou qadr points, for me, to an equinoxe as perfect measure of night and day. If no, what does God mean by laylatou el qadr ?

The word that make me thinking that quran points towards old "islamic traditions" and "old books of god" is word "maaloumat" of verse 2-197. What God meant by that word ?
Quran is continuation and correction of "olds" traditions. Please read carefully verse 16-64 and 27-76.
I think it is a big mistake done by nowadays muslims to not to take care of what torah is saying. I could even says that it is a sectarian approch for the category of muslims that received the last "volume" of the books of God. We both know that islam didn't began with muhammad.
i think It is a big mistake to forgot all what allah said before quran was revealed even if we know that it was perverted. Quran is here to correct mistakes.
Read please 5-43 ,7-157 and mainly  5-68. I consider myself involved by the expression Ahl el kitab and 5-68 clearly ask me to see in torah and injeel(?).

if we assume that quran correct what was wrong we can make another reading of 2-189.
First, i have also assumed that it was a denial of taking the new moon as a shar or as a starting for new month. I assumed that entering home by back is related to new moon and entering home by proper doors was related to full moon.
I really have changed my opinion while writing last post and when i had the idea to verify to what period of moon corresponded the autumn equinox of year 610. I was convinced that i will find a full moon night. But it was new moon night.
As a guy with scientifc background, i revised "all the theory" to match with facts.

Back to verse 2-189, if we assume that quran corrects wrong doing, we can notice that jewish feast correspond all to full moon period. So full moon is the wrong doing if we interpret  2-189 as a correction.
It is not logical to assume that it corrects wrong doing of muslims after quran was revealed. Even if it is possible, it would be a too heavy change for scholars after quran to change full moon to new moon as it is done now for the starting of a month.

I revised your arguments (that convinced me before) about Full moon . Shahr means moon. Full moon is deduction. (please see http://www.baheth.info/all.jsp?term=شهر)
Shahr  have same root as shahara (known, visible) and quran precise that shahr is visible (man shahada shahr ramadhan). New moon and full moon are both visible.
New moon can be also a kind of drawing for a shahira (pregnant women).

I will give you now my thoughts about the 4 ashor haram even if i have no solid arguments and that i can appear ridiculous.
3 of them would be given by torah and jewish calendar (if we reintegrates the nassyi as you said and don't count the 13 shahr).
The remaining one is the more hazardous for me. It would corresponds  to christmas feast.
Christmas feast was imported in christianism  from the Zoroaster cult of mithra.
Please read http://persia.edublogs.org/files/2009/03/article-christmas-is-an-old-tradtion-from-persia-a.pdf
Even if i think that jesus is not issa, i believe now that Zoroastrianism and christianism are inspired from the true story of issa as we found many correspondances with the true story of issa as it is told to us in the quran.
Christian gospel would be a somewhat true story of the a false prophet called Jesus inspired from a true prophet called Issa.
I know that it is unbelievable and that i can be wrong.
So Christmas would be a kind a revenge from GOD. It is the feast forgotten by jews due to their hatred of Issa, the prophet that they have erased from their beliefs. Nowadays, Christmas would be a good practice for bad reasons.

Really brother ayman, i would like to thank you about your articles. They had a great influence on my way of thinking.
Before, i was not aware about the great mystifications in words usage. For arabic speaking guy as me, hajj, omra, soujoud and masjid are obvious words. Shahada is also obvious word.
Till now, i cannot realize how could i have been so dummy to the true meaning of words and how i accepted so easily the explanations that the stupid scholars maid for these words.
Thank you very much.

[ayman]

Peace brother Noshirk,

thank you brother ayman.
I read and write arabic. my second langage is french and the third is english
i can understand english very well and we can continue in english if you forgive my grammary mistakes and my style.

Since you know Arabic, I would suggest reviewing the article on the timing in Arabic here:

http://www.egyptianoasis.net/%E4%CF%C7%C1-%C7%E1%C5%ED%E3%C7%E4-14/%E3%CA%ED-%E1%ED%E1%C9-%C7%E1%DE%CF%D1%BF-36503/

Now, verse 9-5 says when "insalakha el alshor el haram".
We both agree that ashor in no more a 30 day period. So even if they are consecutive as you say, there is an interruption of 20 days between them. If we accept 20 days interruption wa can accept more.
Now clearly, for me, assuming that ashor are consecutive is only a deduction that can be false.
I can understand 9-5 by, "after each insilakh".
Now if Hajj lasts for only 10 days. Consecutive Shahr hypothesis leads to 10 days of Hajj, pause and return home for 20 days, back to hajj for 10 days, pause and return home for 20 days etc...
Assuming that Hajj is not during consecutive month leads to a more equilibrated repartition of periods of Hajj during the year.
Notice also that the interruption of 20 days invalidates in someways the arguments that interdiction of hunting during "the period were wa are horomon".is for taking care of the fauna and wildlife. It is also an adhoc argument.

Everyone understands that when someone says "we should wait until four full-moons had passed to do something" then this doesn't mean that we can do this something in between.

This is confirmed by 2:226-228 where we hear the same wording used for full-moon and menstruations. Both are events and counted the same way. Surely, you cannot be proposing that the woman who is asked to wait for 3 menstruations before getting married can get married in the time in between when she doesn't have her menstruation?! But this is exactly what your logic above would mean.

I have read many times verse 17-12. I cannot see why you think it points towards solistices and exclude equinoxes.

17:12 talks about knowing the years from the day and night. The only way you can count the years based on the day and night is if you count the time between shortest/longest day/night since each distinguished solstice event occurs only once per year. On the other hand, we cannot use the equinoxes to count the year since equinoxes occur twice per year and it is only half a year between equinoxes.

But the expression laylatou qadr points, for me, to an equinoxe as perfect measure of night and day. If no, what does God mean by laylatou el qadr ?

Please read 36:39 to know what "measure" means with respect to the moon. It is the night where the moon is measured in descending stages until it reaches the crescent shape. Since the moon can ONLY descend in size from the full-moon so it is the night of the full-moon.

The word that make me thinking that quran points towards old "islamic traditions" and "old books of god" is word "maaloumat" of verse 2-197. What God meant by that word ?
Quran is continuation and correction of "olds" traditions. Please read carefully verse 16-64 and 27-76.
I think it is a big mistake done by nowadays muslims to not to take care of what torah is saying. I could even says that it is a sectarian approch for the category of muslims that received the last "volume" of the books of God. We both know that islam didn't began with muhammad.
i think It is a big mistake to forgot all what allah said before quran was revealed even if we know that it was perverted. Quran is here to correct mistakes.
Read please 5-43 ,7-157 and mainly  5-68. I consider myself involved by the expression Ahl el kitab and 5-68 clearly ask me to see in torah and injeel(?).

To me "known" means that they are known irrespective of a book or traditions. The harvest moons are known naturally all over the world and in all cultures.

if we assume that quran correct what was wrong we can make another reading of 2-189.
First, i have also assumed that it was a denial of taking the new moon as a shar or as a starting for new month. I assumed that entering home by back is related to new moon and entering home by proper doors was related to full moon.
I really have changed my opinion while writing last post and when i had the idea to verify to what period of moon corresponded the autumn equinox of year 610. I was convinced that i will find a full moon night. But it was new moon night.
As a guy with scientifc background, i revised "all the theory" to match with facts.

What fact? Where did you scientifically get that year 610 date from?? This 610 is a completely baseless date that has nothing to do with the great reading.

Back to verse 2-189, if we assume that quran corrects wrong doing, we can notice that jewish feast correspond all to full moon period. So full moon is the wrong doing if we interpret  2-189 as a correction.
It is not logical to assume that it corrects wrong doing of muslims after quran was revealed. Even if it is possible, it would be a too heavy change for scholars after quran to change full moon to new moon as it is done now for the starting of a month.
I revised your arguments (that convinced me before) about Full moon . Shahr means moon. Full moon is deduction. (please see http://www.baheth.info/all.jsp?term=شهر)
Shahr  have same root as shahara (known, visible) and quran precise that shahr is visible (man shahada shahr ramadhan). New moon and full moon are both visible.
New moon can be also a kind of drawing for a shahira (pregnant women).

Please read Lisan Al Arab carefully. There is no such meaning as new moon. On the other hand, the full-moon is clearly given as a meaning. Here is the original entry of Lisan Al Arab in Arabic:

شهر (لسان العرب):
والشَّهْرُ القَمَر، سمي بذلك لشُهرته وظُهوره، وقيل: إِذا ظهر وقارَب الكمال.

Clearly, Lisan Al-Arab states that "shahr" is the moon when it is apparent AND nearly FULL. It doesn't say anything about the NEW MOON. So the NEW MOON is a completely made up meaning. Also, the NEW MOON is not apparent and not clearly visible like you claim. If you disagree then please witness the new moon for yourself and take a picture of it yourself and post it here. You will never be able to do it probably for your entire life.

I will give you now my thoughts about the 4 ashor haram even if i have no solid arguments and that i can appear ridiculous.
3 of them would be given by torah and jewish calendar (if we reintegrates the nassyi as you said and don't count the 13 shahr).
The remaining one is the more hazardous for me. It would corresponds  to christmas feast.
Christmas feast was imported in christianism  from the Zoroaster cult of mithra.
Please read http://persia.edublogs.org/files/2009/03/article-christmas-is-an-old-tradtion-from-persia-a.pdf
Even if i think that jesus is not issa, i believe now that Zoroastrianism and christianism are inspired from the true story of issa as we found many correspondances with the true story of issa as it is told to us in the quran.
Christian gospel would be a somewhat true story of the a false prophet called Jesus inspired from a true prophet called Issa.
I know that it is unbelievable and that i can be wrong.
So Christmas would be a kind a revenge from GOD. It is the feast forgotten by jews due to their hatred of Issa, the prophet that they have erased from their beliefs. Nowadays, Christmas would be a good practice for bad reasons.

As discussed above, the inviolable full-moons have to be consecutive as per 9:5.

Also, the purpose of the harvest feast/hajj and the hunting restriction is in line with the timing. Christmas has nothing to do with Jesus. It was a pagan Roman fertility goddess birthday coinciding with the birth of the sun on the winter solstice. The pagan Arabs also had the same pagan concept and you can see its traces in what they falsely call "hajj" today. However, because of using the purely lunar calendar this pagan tradition doesn't fall near the winter solstice anymore.

Really brother ayman, i would like to thank you about your articles. They had a great influence on my way of thinking.
Before, i was not aware about the great mystifications in words usage. For arabic speaking guy as me, hajj, omra, soujoud and masjid are obvious words. Shahada is also obvious word.
Till now, i cannot realize how could i have been so dummy to the true meaning of words and how i accepted so easily the explanations that the stupid scholars maid for these words.
Thank you very much.

I was also the same way and I thought I knew all those words. Moreover, in the past I also took the stupid scholars history for granted and I assumed that the great reading was revealed in 610. Now I know that those chronologies are completely bogus.

Peace,

Ayman

[noshirk]

Thank you brother ayman

http://www.egyptianoasis.net/%E4%CF%C7%C1-%C7%E1%C5%ED%E3%C7%E4-14/%E3%CA%ED-%E1%ED%E1%C9-%C7%E1%DE%CF%D1%BF-36503/

Thank you for  the link

Everyone understands that when someone says "we should wait until four full-moons had passed to do something" then this doesn't mean that we can do this something in between.

This is confirmed by 2:226-228 where we hear the same wording used for full-moon and menstruations. Both are events and counted the same way. Surely, you cannot be proposing that the woman who is asked to wait for 3 menstruations before getting married can get married in the time in between when she doesn't have her menstruation?! But this is exactly what your logic above would mean.

Sorry but I am not agree for the comparison with 2:226. In verse 2:226 it is clearly stipulated to wait for 4 ashor after the decision to abstain from wives. It is clear also that we don’t have to wait for 4 ashor every year.
It is not the case for verse 9:5. I don’t see any number four and any clear block of consecutive ashor.

In verse 2:194; 2:217, 5:2, 5:97 , Quran used the general expression of “shahr haram” and not “ashor haram”. This can be interpreted as if shahr haram was an institution and not block of ashor. Why mention shar haram individually ?

9:2; 9-5; 9-36 are verses where ashor haram, in plural form, are mentioned. I can read them without viewing a consecutive block of months.

17:12 talks about knowing the years from the day and night. The only way you can count the years based on the day and night is if you count the time between shortest/longest day/night since each distinguished solstice event occurs only once per year. On the other hand, we cannot use the equinoxes to count the year since equinoxes occur twice per year and it is only half a year between equinoxes.

Please read 36:39 to know what "measure" means with respect to the moon. It is the night where the moon is measured in descending stages until it reaches the crescent shape. Since the moon can ONLY descend in size from the full-moon so it is the night of the full-moon.

Here are verses where qadr appear with sense of measure.
15-21,15-60,22-74,23-18,25-2,34-18,41-10,42-27,43-11,54-12,54-49,65-3,73-20,76-16,77-22,77-23

In 73:20 we find the expression “God measures (Youkaddirou) the night and the day”
In 41:10, we find the expression 4 equivalent periods
وَجَعَلَ فِيهَا رَوَاسِيَ مِن فَوْقِهَا وَبَارَكَ فِيهَا وَقَدَّرَ فِيهَا أَقْوَاتَهَا فِي أَرْبَعَةِ أَيَّامٍ سَوَاء لِّلسَّائِلِينَ

sorry, but in 17-12, i don't see any mention of shortest night or longer day.
I saw on the web that there is other ways to identify equinoxes without having to measure the length of night and length of day.
see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Calendar where we can read this sentence:
"It is one of the oldest calendars in the world as well as the most accurate solar calendar in use today"
The persian year begins in the march equinox and you already mentionned a "story" where persian calendar was known and rejected by Omar el Khattab committee when they instituated the hijri calendar

To me "known" means that they are known irrespective of a book or traditions. The harvest moons are known naturally all over the world and in all cultures.

Notice also that I have read no good argument that prove that  shahr ramadhan would be the first or the last or in the middle of the block of 4 ashor. There is no proof that the 4 month are the harvest in the year.

Notice also that arguments about hunting and harvest months doesn’t hold for south hemisphere. Equinoxes are always equinoxes anywhere in the planet while solstices are opposites in the south and north hemisphere

What fact? Where did you scientifically get that year 610 date from?? This 610 is a completely baseless date that has nothing to do with the great reading.

OK. It is a good argument. I have no proof that quran was revealed in 610.
Who Knows ? perhaps autum equinox of the good year match full moon ? 606 for example ?
I am interested in knowing if you have a theory about the good year and why you think that 610 is suspect.
Year 610 is the main reason why I thinked about new moon.
I agree that 36-39 seems to indicate that good counting should begin with full moon.
2-189 can then be reinterpreted, in terms of wrong doing, by the fact that jews begins theirs months with new moon while maintaining feasts during full moon.

Please read Lisan Al Arab carefully. There is no such meaning as new moon. On the other hand, the full-moon is clearly given as a meaning. Here is the original entry of Lisan Al Arab in Arabic:

شهر (لسان العرب):
والشَّهْرُ القَمَر، سمي بذلك لشُهرته وظُهوره، وقيل: إِذا ظهر وقارَب الكمال.

Clearly, Lisan Al-Arab states that "shahr" is the moon when it is apparent AND nearly FULL. It doesn't say anything about the NEW MOON. So the NEW MOON is a completely made up meaning. Also, the NEW MOON is not apparent and not clearly visible like you claim. If you disagree then please witness the new moon for yourself and take a picture of it yourself and post it here. You will never be able to do it probably for your entire life.

As discussed above, the inviolable full-moons have to be consecutive as per 9:5.

OK Full moon is more visible than new moon. I agree that it seems more correct.
The main argument for "New moon theory", as nowadays practiced, was year 610.
However, 2:203 can be interpreted as big precision is not  required. 2 days before or after, no matter.
 

Also, the purpose of the harvest feast/hajj and the hunting restriction is in line with the timing. Christmas has nothing to do with Jesus. It was a pagan Roman fertility goddess birthday coinciding with the birth of the sun on the winter solstice. The pagan Arabs also had the same pagan concept and you can see its traces in what they falsely call "hajj" today. However, because of using the purely lunar calendar this pagan tradition doesn't fall near the winter solstice anymore.

Christmas was not a pagan Roman fertility goddess birthday. Please see the link i gave you.
Please read http://persia.edublogs.org/files/2009/03/article-christmas-is-an-old-tradtion-from-persia-a.pdf

I told you that jesus in not issa for me.
Now, if Hajj is feast then why we have 4 in quran and only 3 in “Judaism”.
Where is the last one ?
My theory, and I told you that it is more an intuition than a theory, is that the forth feast was erased from memory of jews at the same time they erased the true issa from their memory.
It is why I think that the 4 th missing feast is related to the true Isaa.

I mentioned already that, for me, the true issa is now known as Yeshua Bin Nun.
Yeshua was “the valet”, the “spiritual son” and the successor of Moses.
He delivered the land of Firaoun and installed bani Israel in it.
Yeshua mean jesus, Bin is the feminine of Ben  and Nun mean Nun (devoted women).
I think that Issa/Yeshua is the son of Meriem, the prophetess and sister of Moses and the daughter of imran, the father of Moses.

So I think that Christmas is the feast of the true issa, whose story inspired many mythologies of son of god and virgin (mithra who was worhipped by Romans and imported from Persia, Horus, Juspiter, Jesus of Nazareth, and others…)

Peace

[ayman]

Peace brother Noshirk,

Sorry but I am not agree for the comparison with 2:226. In verse 2:226 it is clearly stipulated to wait for 4 ashor after the decision to abstain from wives. It is clear also that we don’t have to wait for 4 ashor every year.

Please read all the way from 2:226 to 2:228. According to your logic a woman in 2:228 doesn't have to wait for 3 menstuations and can get married in between menstruations. The main point is that waiting 4 full-moons, like waiting 3 menstruations doesn't mean that you don't have to wait between the full-moon or menstruation events.

It is not the case for verse 9:5. I don’t see any number four and any clear block of consecutive ashor.
In verse 2:194; 2:217, 5:2, 5:97 , Quran used the general expression of “shahr haram” and not “ashor haram”. This can be interpreted as if shahr haram was an institution and not block of ashor. Why mention shar haram individually ?
9:2; 9-5; 9-36 are verses where ashor haram, in plural form, are mentioned. I can read them without viewing a consecutive block of months.

You can't just read 9:5 in isolation. Please see 9:36 where it is clearly stated that the inviolable full-moons are 4. As for non-consecutive this is already refuted by 9:5 and the fact that the waiting period for menstruations is counted in the same way as full-moons according to 2:226-2:228. Just read the whole thing all the way through 2:228.

Here are verses where qadr appear with sense of measure.
15-21,15-60,22-74,23-18,25-2,34-18,41-10,42-27,43-11,54-12,54-49,65-3,73-20,76-16,77-22,77-23
In 73:20 we find the expression “God measures (Youkaddirou) the night and the day”
In 41:10, we find the expression 4 equivalent periods
وَجَعَلَ فِيهَا رَوَاسِيَ مِن فَوْقِهَا وَبَارَكَ فِيهَا وَقَدَّرَ فِيهَا أَقْوَاتَهَا فِي أَرْبَعَةِ أَيَّامٍ سَوَاء لِّلسَّائِلِينَ

The meaning is ALWAYS "measure" and not "equivalence". 41:10 doesn't talk about equivalent periods. It talks about measuring its sustenance (aqwateha). As an Arabic speaker you should know the difference between "aqwat" (sustenance) and "awqat" (time periods).

sorry, but in 17-12, i don't see any mention of shortest night or longer day.

How else would you measure the number of years using day and night? Please answer. You will not be able to answer because it is impossible except by using the shortest/longest night/day.

I saw on the web that there is other ways to identify equinoxes without having to measure the length of night and length of day.

This has nothing to do with the great reading and is irrelevant since 17:12 talks specifically about using the day and night to know the number of years.

Notice also that I have read no good argument that prove that  shahr ramadhan would be the first or the last or in the middle of the block of 4 ashor. There is no proof that the 4 month are the harvest in the year.

Good arguments were presented many times on the following thread. Please read it carefully:

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.0

Notice also that arguments about hunting and harvest months doesn’t hold for south hemisphere. Equinoxes are always equinoxes anywhere in the planet while solstices are opposites in the south and north hemisphere

Who said that the hunting and harvest have to be the same in both hemispheres?? This is normal since wild life follows different timing in the Southern and Northern hemispheres so the hunting restriction MUST be different too.

OK. It is a good argument. I have no proof that quran was revealed in 610.
Who Knows ? perhaps autum equinox of the good year match full moon ? 606 for example ?
I am interested in knowing if you have a theory about the good year and why you think that 610 is suspect.
Year 610 is the main reason why I thinked about new moon.
I agree that 36-39 seems to indicate that good counting should begin with full moon.
2-189 can then be reinterpreted, in terms of wrong doing, by the fact that jews begins theirs months with new moon while maintaining feasts during full moon.

The so-called Islamic chronolgy starts with the birth of the prophet in the year of Abraha's expedition. This is given by historians as the year 575CE. However, physical evidence in the form of an inscription commemorating Abaraha's expedition to Arabia gives the date of the expedition as 552CE. This is also evident in Hadiths where many of the narrators are alleged to have lived well over 100 years. Their age had to be increased and probably the period where the prophet lived had to be moved forward so as to make them overlap. Also, a Roman manuscript states that the Arab kingdom was formed and started invading the Roman teritories in the year 620CE and it correlates the date with other events. This is a dozen years before Islamic chronology and at the time according to Islamic chrnology the prophet hasn't even emigrated yet!

So we know 100% that the years of Islamic chronology are problematic. What the actual year of revelation was doesn't matter.

OK Full moon is more visible than new moon. I agree that it seems more correct.
The main argument for "New moon theory", as nowadays practiced, was year 610.

The year 610 is certainly problematic. On the other hand, everyone agrees that witnessing the full-moon is easier and also this is further confirmed by Lisan AlArab where the meaning of "shahr" as full-moon is clearly given.

However, 2:203 can be interpreted as big precision is not  required. 2 days before or after, no matter.
Christmas was not a pagan Roman fertility goddess birthday. Please see the link i gave you.
Please read http://persia.edublogs.org/files/2009/03/article-christmas-is-an-old-tradtion-from-persia-a.pdf
I told you that jesus in not issa for me.
Now, if Hajj is feast then why we have 4 in quran and only 3 in “Judaism”.
Where is the last one ?
My theory, and I told you that it is more an intuition than a theory, is that the forth feast was erased from memory of jews at the same time they erased the true issa from their memory.
It is why I think that the 4 th missing feast is related to the true Isaa.
I mentioned already that, for me, the true issa is now known as Yeshua Bin Nun.
Yeshua was “the valet”, the “spiritual son” and the successor of Moses.
He delivered the land of Firaoun and installed bani Israel in it.
Yeshua mean jesus, Bin is the feminine of Ben  and Nun mean Nun (devoted women).
I think that Issa/Yeshua is the son of Meriem, the prophetess and sister of Moses and the daughter of imran, the father of Moses.
So I think that Christmas is the feast of the true issa, whose story inspired many mythologies of son of god and virgin (mithra who was worhipped by Romans and imported from Persia, Horus, Juspiter, Jesus of Nazareth, and others…)

The Romans may have very well borrowed it from the Persians and then the Christians in turn borrowed it from the Romans. In all of the ancient world, fertility goddesses/gods were worshipped under different names but they shared some common traits such as the celebration of their birth at the time of the winter solstice (the birth of the sun since the sun is the most prominent symbol of fertility in paganism).

Peace,

Ayman

[Noon waalqalami]

How else would you measure the number of years using day and night? Please answer. You will not be able to answer because it is impossible except by using the shortest/longest night/day.

Peace ayman,

Observe daily sunset/sunrise which have numerous reference points to count the years.

[ayman]

Peace Noon,

Observe daily sunset/sunrise which have numerous reference points to count the years.

Same as when you use the length of the day/night, the position at the equinoxes can't be used to count the number of years as per 17:12 since it occurs twice in the year. Again, you can only use one of the solstices to count the years.

Peace,

Ayman

[noshirk]

salam

When you face north as indicated by polar star, day of equinox is exactly when sunrise occurs exactly from east.
Photo given by Noon waalqalami shows how ancient people can easily determine aquinox by aligning stones to north.
Equinox is when sunrise occurs exactly like in the photo

No need to even measure time. Years can be easily calculated.

it is also a qadar (measure in sense of middle) between the two extreme positions from wich sunrise occurs during the year.
it is the middle of Macharek
37:5 The Lord of the heavens and the earth, and what lies between them, and the Lord of the Machariq.
70:40 So I do swear by the Lord of machariq wa magharib, that We are able.


Returning back to block of consecutive months. I read all arguments and i am not convinced.
Consecutive months theory have also to explain why this pratice is absent from "judaim" and "christianism"

Thank you brother ayman for informations about year 610.

Peace