My answers to Ayman's Alligations

[belH]

Peace All:

Ayman thinks my way of fasting and timing is wrong; the following is my answer to his alligation that was posted in http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.new;topicseen#new)

(I had to post it in a saperate thread so people can focus in finding the truth, and not get mixed up by the many posts in the other thread)

The traditional timing:

We all know the traditional timing so I am not going to waste time on explaining it. Also, everyone who has read the great reading knows that the traditional point of view has zero support in the great reading and this is what has prompted many people here to search for a better one based on the great reading. Basically, the traditional timing has the following problems:
- The traditional timing:

We all know the traditional timing so I am not going to waste time on explaining it. Also, everyone who has read the great reading knows that the traditional point of view has zero support in the great reading and this is what has prompted many people here to search for a better one based on the great reading.

OK...Lets examine your allegation

Basically, the traditional timing has the following problems:

1. Assumption that ?ramadan" is meaningless:

It assumes that the word ?ramadan? in 2:185 is meaningless and thus that the god could have said ?bla bla bla?, as long as it came after the month named Shaaban, which brings us to the next point.

My assumption is based on Quran.
I assume that Rammadn is a Name.
I assume that Rammadan does not mean Hot simply because God Used other word (HAR) For Hot and never used Rammadan. Therefore My Assumption is supported by Quran, and your assumption that Rammadan means Hot is based on Dictionary and condridicts the Quran.

2. The traditional timing is 100% arbitrary:

In reality, the only thing that the sectarian Ramadan is based on is when Shaaban occurred and this in turns depends on when Rajab occurred and so on.

So if one follows this back, one can see that in fact Ramadan is dependent on when the new era was made to start. Many people mistakenly believe that Islamic Calendar starts with the alleged date of migration of the prophet. However, even this arbitrary start is false since Muharram was selected as the start of the era and not the supposed date of migration of the prophet.

What is your Proof from Quran that Moharm was not the Month of Migration?
Is your proof based on conjecture ? as you know Conjecture leads to Fetna?

The Prophet and the Believers will always Fast the Month that the Quran first was revealed. Such Month will fall within the 12 months (12 Moons) of the year. Either such month was the Moon Cycle numer 1 of the year or 2 or 3 or 4...or any other number, the prophet and his people will know.

Please understand that the anniversary is calculated by 12 month period and not by the weather Condition. And in our Islamic case, the anniversary of Rammadan Month is every 12 Moon Cycles.

It is an indisputable fact that had the new era been made to start according to a different marker such as the date of first revelation or the date of birth of the prophet or the date of the final victory of the prophet, etc. then people here who happily embrace the traditional timing would have been fasting in an entirely different month. So for example, had the beginning of the new era been set to 3 years earlier then they would be fasting in what was Shaaban a month earlier. In addition to the beginning of the era, the order of the months in this new era is completely arbitrary. So what sectarians are doing right now is essentially fasting a completely random month and this is a fact that only the most ignorant and dogmatic would dispute.

You See! You keep building and growing your Theory on nothing; if your assumption are not supported by Quran, then your assumptions are Conjectures.
Please do not start a Hypothieses and try to prove it using unreliable nor Valid Data. And in the case of Religion, you know where to Find the Reliable and Valid Data.

3. The traditional timing ignores the fact that the year is certainly solar in the great reading:

According to 17:12, daylight and night are used to determine the number of years. Since day and night are a function of the sun and not the moon, then the year is certainly solar or luni-solar.

..Then, We have obliterated the sign of the night (with darkness) while We have made the sign of the day illuminating, that you may seek bounty from your Lord, and that you may know the number of the years and the reckoning...(17-12)


Ayman 17:12 is related to the Quran; thus it should confirm and support the other verses that says to Use the Moon Stages to calculate the Years, and not cancel the following verse out:

It is He Who made the sun a shining thing and the moon as a light and measured out for it stages, that you might know the number of years and the reckoning. All?h did not create this but in truth. He explains the Ay?t (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) in detail for people who have knowledge. (10-5)

Now, the Sun Cycle is to calculate the day period, and the Moon Cycle to Calculate the Month Period; please let me know if we can use the Sun and the Moon differently.

4. The traditional timing violates 9:36:

By assuming that the word ?shahr? means a lunar month and given the fact that the year is solar as shown in (3), the traditionalists actually count 12.3 months in a year and not exactly twelve. 

Verily, the number of months with All?h is twelve months, so was it ordained by All?h on the Day when He created the heavens and the earth; of them four are Sacred, ...(9-36)

You see, you are creating a thoery that is based on unQuranic proof.

As I showed you from Quran that the Month period is based on Moon Cycle, how can the Year that has 12 Shaher (moon Cycles) will be Solar.

YOU HAVE TO USE THE SUN AND MOON TO CALCULATE THE YEAR.
If you choose to leave the Moon out of the pictuer, then you are disbelieving Quranic Verses.

5. The traditional timing creates a contradiction between 2:185 and 97:1

On the one hand, traditionalists claim that according to 2:185 the great reading was descended in a month while 97:1 clearly says that it was descended in one night. This false understanding creates a contradiction in the great reading.

Again, you are adding words to the translation of Quran.
2-185 says that the Month of Rammadan is when God revealed the Quran. Did you see any arabic word that refers to that the  Entire Quran was revealed only in Rammadan Month; NO. NO. NO.

97:1 does not say the Quran at all

Verily, We have sent it down (Descended it) in the night of Al-Qadr(1) And what will make you know what the night of Al-Qadr is? (2) The night of Al-Qadr is better than a thousand months (3) Therein descend the angels and the R?h by All?h's Permission with all Decrees, (4) there is Peace  until the appearance of dawn (97-5)

And that is what God told us about what He Descends in the Night of Qadr.
But if you add and say that the Quran was revealed in on night, then you will have to cancel out all the Verses that show otherwise.

6. The traditional timing creates a contradiction between 2:185 and 2:184

Traditionalists claim that according to 2:185 the abstinence is for a month while 2:184 is clearly saying ?a few days?. Some try to make up excuses by making up a new meaning for ?ma3doodat? as ?any number?. So now they create another problem by implying that the god is giving superfluous useless information. This false understanding also creates another problem further down in 2:185 when the passage mentions ?completing the count?. If the count is already known as ?30 days? or ?29 days? then both ?any number? and ?completing the count? become useless and unnecessary information.

2-184 is clearly saying "Counted Days" and not "Few Days". Stick to the Meaning of the word "M3doodat" as counted and not Few.

Completing the Count is to Complete the days that are falling within the period of the Moon Cycle., which can be 29 or 30 days.

These are just 6 problems with the traditional understanding and I am sure that there are more but I already wasted enough time stating what should be obvious to everyone but unfortunately isn?t as evident by all the confusion.

You created these problems by using uneducated translation of Quran, and relying on unquranic proofs.

I hope I was clear enough in explaining my position.

Peace all

[Wakas]

Creating multiple threads about the same issue is not allowed by the forum rules.

I will let this one go, but this is an informal reminder that further posts may be deleted without notice.

[belH]

Creating multiple threads about the same issue is not allowed by the forum rules.

I will let this one go, but this is an informal reminder that further posts may be deleted without notice.

Thank You

[farida]

Thank You

Salaam everyone,

Everyone can see from the post on ?Hot/"ramadan" Answer? that, no matter how many evidence are produced from the Qur?an, those who want to promote their agenda simply try and sweep the proof under the rug. They are playing politics and now it has simply become a case of my way or the highway.
Anwar has eloquently covered lots of details and has explained very well  MaAAdoodatin in relation to the month of Ramadan.
I don?t understand the fuss about the literal meaning of the word ramdan, which means  intense/extreme heat. Taking this literal meaning gives us a clue about the timing that weather was very hot, in prophet Mohammed?s city during this very first event.
By fasting we commemorate the revelation of the Quran in Leylat Al Qadr so this should be a universal event. The message of the Quran was revealed for the benefit of the world and when the Quran descended, due to the position of the sun in respective countries, it was hot in the Northern hemisphere but cold in its southern counterpart where Leylat Al Qadr was a wintry night. Insisting that the Southern hemisphere should abandon their event to follow conditions in Arabia we are making it a local event, not a universal event.
Now let?s look at: 17:12
We have made the NIGHT and the Day as two (of Our) Signs: the Sign of the NIGHT have We obscured, while the Sign of the Day We have made to enlighten you; that ye may seek bounty from your Lord, and that ye may know the number and count of the years: all things have We explained in detail
What I understand from the verse above is that, for the number and count of years, we need to take into account both signs, the night and the day a luni-solar cycle but as we count our months by the lunar cycle the event will be remembered as the one when it was hot in Arabia, a clue for the rest of the world to work out what was the weather in their respective countries.
The same conditions are repeated every 29/30 years when the moon and the sun are in a similar position. As, every year, the month of fasting moves ten days, due to the lunar year, every place in the whole world is exchanging time of year with others so that each and every month of fasting will have the night of power. If we were to limit it only to fasting in hot weather we would be making it a local Arab event and would be excluding the Southern hemisphere from the whole world and above all going against the evidence from the Qur?an 9:81

2:242 It is such that God clarifies to you His revelations that you may comprehend.

[rsw]

Doesn't Night of Decree in summer contradict this article which I thought was very convincing?  Is there any reconciliation or can we conclusively prove one or the other wrong?

It can be concluded from the above information that the time of the Winter Solstice is indeed the blessed night of decree that the Qur?an refers to. This would mean than not only was Jesus conceived on that night, but also that the Qur?an and the Torah and all other major decrees were sent down in that same night respectively apart.

This night is not only a blessed night in itself, but it also would bless the period around it explaining why the fast has been commanded to occur in the month of Ramadhan in which the Night of Decree is contained.

[Samia]

The article is based on a theory that the night of decree is the "longest night" without giving evidence that it really was the longest night, or that the longer the night the more blessed. I do not think the qur'aan described it as a "long night", but a "blessed night" and better than "a thousand annunciations/declarations" (another meaning for shahr, still in use).

[belH]

The article is based on a theory that the night of decree is the "longest night" without giving evidence that it really was the longest night, or that the longer the night the more blessed. I do not think the qur'aan described it as a "long night", but a "blessed night"

Peace,

Good evaluation.
Now' why cann't you evaluate Ayman's "Longest day" as you did with Layth?

Thanks

[Samia]

Peace,

Good evaluation.
Now' why cann't you evaluate Ayman's "Longest day" as you did with Layth?

Thanks

Thanks

Is this what you understood from Ayman's posts?   

[belH]

Thanks

Is this what you understood from Ayman's posts?   

I Understood that Rammadan Month starts after we witness the Scorching Full Moon of the Solistic Summer Day (Longest Day of year) (June 21).

Is that what he is saying?

[farida]

I Understood that Rammadan Month starts after we witness the Scorching Full Moon of the Solistic Summer Day (Longest Day of year) (June 21).

Is that what he is saying?

Salaam Belalhammad,

No you're wrong brother!!! Its not "we", it's he and his followers who witness the Scorching Full Moon of the Solistic Summer Day and start fasting and the rest of his followers in a mock celebration of the month starts  around the globe like domino cards falling with the movement of the Sun. 

However his calculations could come handy if we calculte "sana(t)" not "3am", as there was no calender so two modes could be followed for seperate purposes. Please, if you go through my latest post on HOT/Ramadan thread, I would appreciate your view on that, even if in this thread.