Why Remove 9:127&129?

[jonny_k]

Peace "nun de plume",

Peace jonny_k,

Yes, I’m serious that the real Qur’an is inside the Muslims heads!

JK- Ok we and those at submission.org are Muslims and in their head is the real Quran witrhout 9:128&129. On the other hand there are the sunni and shia "muslims" and in their heads is also something they call Quran with 9:128&129. So do you call the sunni/shia Muslims now? Ridiculous!

No, the 19 stuff is absolutely ridiculous; takes only a little knowledge of math to see this.

JK- Oh really? And what about the predictions it made? Take a look at my latest replies to ayman on 19.org. Also ceckout the following site and tell me if this is just all coincidence:
http://www.quranmiracles.com (Mathematics and 19)
also see in particular:
http://www.quranmiracles.com/19/19read.asp?id=8
What sense does it make that GOD mentions numbers like 1000 minus 50 and 300 and 9 instead of 950 and 309 repecetively? THINK!

They did that already – that RK guy, it went to his head and he became delusional looking for 19 patterns.

JK- So RK is delusional and the sunni/shia are the true Muslims? Dude this is the height of stupidity

Qur’an says it makes it so, read surah 54…

Walaqad yassarna alqur-ana lilththikri fahal min muddakirin
And We have indeed made the Quran easy to understand and remember, then is there any that will remember?


To solve any problem/issue, it’s best to break it up into its simplest elements.

Tell exactly why the below verse does not belong – is it the word Allâh?

Fa-in tawallaw faqul hasbiya Allahu la ilaha illa huwa AAalayhi tawakkaltu wahuwa rabbu alAAarshi alAAatheemi
But if they turn away, say: "Allâh is sufficient for me. Lâ ilâha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), in Him I put my trust and He is the Lord of the Mighty Throne." (9:129)

JK- The Quran is easy to memorize yes BUT where do these verses say that if some book is memorized and called Quran then it must be so WHICH WAS MY PT? You can memorize "harry potter", infact one dude did, or any other book and say that is Quran. Would it make it so? GOD Bless!

[jonny_k]

Peace "belalhammad",

He is not a submitter any more; He becomes a Disbliever.

JK- SO your saying that the sunni/shia are true submitters? If not how do you know that what they have in their memory is Quran? As i said anyone can memrize a book and call it Quran. Doesnt make it so. Dude i dont know what to say your not thinking at all. Just like most religious folk your reasoning has stopped. GOD Bless!

[Nun de plume]

Peace jonny_k,

JK- Ok we and those at submission.org are Muslims and in their head is the real Quran witrhout 9:128&129. On the other hand there are the sunni and shia "muslims" and in their heads is also something they call Quran with 9:128&129. So do you call the sunni/shia Muslims now? Ridiculous!

To omit verses based on hearsay and naive math tricks is to idolize/follow numerology and it's ridiculous to clump or pigeon-hole all peoples into categories -- this is about what each individual believes.

JK- Oh really? And what about the predictions it made? Take a look at my latest replies to ayman on 19.org. Also ceckout the following site and tell me if this is just all coincidence:
http://www.quranmiracles.com (Mathematics and 19)
also see in particular:
http://www.quranmiracles.com/19/19read.asp?id=8
What sense does it make that GOD mentions numbers like 1000 minus 50 and 300 and 9 instead of 950 and 309 repecetively? THINK!

You're all over the place; let's not clutter keep it simple and stick to the question/topic. We can re-visit all the above separately.

Tell exactly why you believe that the below verse does not belong – is it that the word Allâh in it does not add up to multiple of 19?

Fa-in tawallaw faqul hasbiya Allahu la ilaha illa huwa AAalayhi tawakkaltu wahuwa rabbu alAAarshi alAAatheemi
But if they turn away, say: "Allâh is sufficient for me. Lâ ilâha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), in Him I put my trust and He is the Lord of the Mighty Throne." (9:129)

Explain your logic for choosing to eliminate that verse and not any of the others for they are all suspect?

[Layth]

Salam Ayman,

This is the same approach they use with ALL their claims. For example, they pick and choose different inconsistent methods for counting the initials to get the desired preconceived results.

The count of 19 is nothing except an attractive temptation "fitna" for the disbelievers. See who is attracted to the count of 19 and you will see a disbeliever who believes in Code 19 more than he believes in the god's promise that no falsehood would enter the great reading.

You know my view on this brother. I am a supporter of code 19 as there is sufficient evidence for its existence in the Quran. What I do not support is some of the inconsistent counts and forced conclusions based on erronoeus data.

[jonny_k]

Peace "nun de plume",

Peace jonny_k,

To omit verses based on hearsay and naive math tricks is to idolize/follow numerology and it's ridiculous to clump or pigeon-hole all peoples into categories -- this is about what each individual believes.

JK- If you consider the Quran's numerical code and/or the major, significant findings in this regard math tricks then i really cant help you. I gave you so much information including the predictions code-19 made. If you consider all that coincidence then it's upto you. BUT remember the Quran's wording is by no means itself more statistically significant than the numerical code by objective standards.

You're all over the place; let's not clutter keep it simple and stick to the question/topic. We can re-visit all the above separately.

Tell exactly why you believe that the below verse does not belong – is it that the word Allâh in it does not add up to multiple of 19?

Fa-in tawallaw faqul hasbiya Allahu la ilaha illa huwa AAalayhi tawakkaltu wahuwa rabbu alAAarshi alAAatheemi
But if they turn away, say: "Allâh is sufficient for me. Lâ ilâha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), in Him I put my trust and He is the Lord of the Mighty Throne." (9:129)

Explain your logic for choosing to eliminate that verse and not any of the others for they are all suspect?

JK- The details are here:
http://www.quranmiracles.com/19/19read.asp?id=38 (see the first table only which is extremely significant and this is not a coincidence. if you include 9:128&129 this disappears and if the verses nos are not divinely controlled then this phenomenon should not have occurred!)
Then theres this:
http://www.submission.org/tampering.html

GOD Bless!

[Nun de plume]

Peace jonny_k,

JK- If you consider the Quran's numerical code and/or the major, significant findings in this regard math tricks then i really cant help you. I gave you so much information including the predictions code-19 made.

So far you gave me nothing...

http://www.quranmiracles.com/19/19read.asp?id=8

There are 30 whole numbers in the Quran. The total of these 30 whole numbers is the multiple of 19. (The numbers marked with an asterisk are used only once)

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11*
12
19*
20*
30
40
50*
60*
70
80*
99*
100
200
300*
1000
2000*
3000*
5000*
50000*
100000*
Total = 162146= (19×8534)

It is mentioned in the sura “The Cave” that the youths stayed in a cave for 300 years and 9 years were added to this number. In addition, the number 950 which is related to the Prophet Noah is not given as 950 but in a form to be subtracted from, i.e. 1000 minus 50. Using the numbers in this way, the total of numbers used in the Quran becomes multiple of 19. This is a special feature of the Quran. The numbers 1000 and 9 are repeated many times in the Quran. If the numbers 309 and 950 had been directly mentioned, the total of the numbers in the Quran would not have been the multiple of 19.

Muslims have always been curious about why God did not say 950 and 309 directly and said instead 1000 minus 50 and 300 plus 9. Thus, it is clear now, why God said in this way has been understood. Besides the speciality of 19 forming miracles, this is a proof that it is a special way of answering the questions and solving the problems.

Except for these 30 whole numbers, there are 8 fractional numbers in the Quran. The total of all the numbers is 30+8=38 (19x2). These fractions can be seen in the Quran as follow: 1/20, 1/8, 1/6, 1/5, 1/4, 1/3, 1/2, 2/3

Walabithoo fee kahfihim thalatha mi-atin sineena waizdadoo tisAAan
And they stayed/remained in their cave three hundred years and increased nine.

Walaqad arsalna noohan ila qawmihi falabitha feehim alfa sanatin illa khamseena
And We had sent Noah to his nation, so he stayed in them one thousand year(s) except fifty year(s)

The above is no reason to remove verses from Qur'an nor is the speech like writing checks in English.

“Three hundred and nine dollars” or “nine hundred and fifty dollars”

The language of telling time was same as in some cultures people tell time today...

3:09 pm
9 past 3
3 add (izdadoo) 9

9:55 am
5 to 10
10 less (illa) 5

In addition, where in Qur’an is the fraction 1/20 mentioned?

JK- The details are here:
http://www.quranmiracles.com/19/19read.asp?id=38 (see the first table only which is extremely significant and this is not a coincidence. if you include 9:128&129 this disappears and if the verses nos are not divinely controlled then this phenomenon should not have occurred!)
Then theres this:
http://www.submission.org/tampering.html

Those links are based on hearsay mainly that Ali was upset about adding something; adding exactly what -- dashes, oval dots, or a red hollow circle every tenth verse?

http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/sacredtexts/images/zoomify/meccaquranzoom.html




Again, I'll ask why YOU believe verse 9:129 should be removed and not other verses with the word Allah for they are all suspect?

[jonny_k]

Peace "nun de plume",

Peace jonny_k,

So far you gave me nothing...

http://www.quranmiracles.com/19/19read.asp?id=8


Walabithoo fee kahfihim thalatha mi-atin sineena waizdadoo tisAAan
And they stayed/remained in their cave three hundred years and increased nine.

Walaqad arsalna noohan ila qawmihi falabitha feehim alfa sanatin illa khamseena
And We had sent Noah to his nation, so he stayed in them one thousand year(s) except fifty year(s)

The above is no reason to remove verses from Qur'an nor is the speech like writing checks in English.

“Three hundred and nine dollars” or “nine hundred and fifty dollars”

The language of telling time was same as in some cultures people tell time today...

3:09 pm
9 past 3
3 add (izdadoo) 9

9:55 am
5 to 10
10 less (illa) 5

In addition, where in Qur’an is the fraction 1/20 mentioned?

JK- The English examples you gave cannot be compared with the Arabic especially not 1000 minus 50. Makes no sense and has to my knowledge never been used this way in Arabic. The only reason as shown above is that GOD wanted to integrate a numerical pattern into the Quran. As for the fraction 1/20th tht might be a mistake and ill check on it. HOWEVER tht does not negate the significance of the nos in qs.

Those links are based on hearsay mainly that Ali was upset about adding something; adding exactly what -- dashes, oval dots, or a red hollow circle every tenth verse?

http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/sacredtexts/images/zoomify/meccaquranzoom.html




Again, I'll ask why YOU believe verse 9:129 should be removed and not other verses with the word Allah for they are all suspect?

JK- Beucase it would destroy the verse symmetry as ive pointed out at http://www.quranmiracles.com/19/19read.asp?id=38 and also take a look at pt2 12, 13,14,15 and 43 and 44 in particular at http://www.submission.org/tampering.html . Youll need to look at all the pts on tht site and not just the history which is just for the sunnis/shias to take heed as RK once said "the best way to expose any religious folk is to do it using their own books". thts why RK included hadith. non sunni/shia were supposed to focus only on the numerical structure. GOD Bless!

[jonny_k]

Peace "nun de plume",
http://www.quranmiracles.com/19/19read.asp?id=8
The author wrote 1/20 by mistake. it is supposed to be 1/10. GOD Bless!

[Nun de plume]

Peace jonny_k,

JK- Beucase it would destroy the verse symmetry as ive pointed out at http://www.quranmiracles.com/19/19read.asp?id=38 and also take a look at pt2 12, 13,14,15 and 43 and 44 in particular at http://www.submission.org/tampering.html . Youll need to look at all the pts on tht site and not just the history which is just for the sunnis/shias to take heed as RK once said "the best way to expose any religious folk is to do it using their own books". thts why RK included hadith. non sunni/shia were supposed to focus only on the numerical structure. GOD Bless!

Symmetry can be preserved by selectively removing two verses from various chapters and has little to do with 19. Why not add all the whole numbers and occurrences or add all fraction occurrences to whole numbers? This is cherry picking outcomes and with numerous combinations eventually you’ll get hits.

Here’s an example of replacing Allah in BiSM ALLaH AL-RaHMaN AL-RaHYM...

BiSM Bă'DălMďmKăf AL-RaHMaN AL-RaHYM

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16576.msg168456#msg168456

Also from the tampering site...

 http://www.submission.org/tampering.html

The committee of scribes finally came to Sura 9, and put it in its proper place. One of the scribes suggested adding a couple of verses to honor the Prophet. The majority of scribes agreed. `Ali was outraged. He vehemently maintained that the word of God, written down by the hand of His final prophet, must never be altered.

Where is the above hadith saying one of the scribes wanted to add a couple of verses and majority agreed? They talk as if they were there video taping the events even describing peoples emotions. Or is the above a fabrication by submission.org to deceive readers – shall we examine every hadith on this?

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/061.sbt.html

Look, here’s another suspect verse from the same Abi Khuzaima...

Volume 6, Book 61, Number 510:
Narrated Anas bin Malik:
Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an, so he said to 'Uthman, "O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and the Christians did before." So 'Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to 'Uthman. 'Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin AzZubair, Said bin Al-As and 'AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. 'Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies, 'Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. 'Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. Said bin Thabit added, "A Verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Qur'an and I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. (That Verse was): 'Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.' (33.23)

[jonny_k]

Peace "nun de plume",

Peace jonny_k,

Symmetry can be preserved by selectively removing two verses from various chapters and has little to do with 19.

JK- Try removing two verses from other chapters and see if this syysmtry is maintained:
http://www.quranmiracles.com/19/19read.asp?id=38 (first table)
The appx probability ive calculated for this phenomenon is 1/1600 but that is generating 114 random nos in the range from 3-107 coz that is where i got the avg sum of those around 6234 and the avg no of tries to let the even number sum(cumulation of sura no and verse no) then be equal to the mere verse sum is appx 1/1600. This probability gets less if we increase the upper range to 286. Infact in that case the prob of the sum being less than 10000
is extremely low i.e. less than 1/100,000. So i couldnt do it with that and maybe the real prob is much lower. You might think out of 6243 nos the lowest possible prob must be 1/6234 BUT this is only true if every no has the exact same prob of being hit which is not the case. Infact the greatest prob of the no which shldve been hit by the Quran if it were random is in this case "6555(sura 1-114 sum)+6234(total no of unnumbered verses)) / 2 = 6394 or 6395" not 6234 and with the connection of the total suras being ZMN and other points this becomes drastically more significant.

Why not add all the whole numbers and occurrences or add all fraction occurrences to whole numbers? This is cherry picking outcomes and with numerous combinations eventually you’ll get hits.

JK- Adding all the whole nos and getting a ZMN is definitely signficant. Then again adding the no of whole nos and again getting ZMN is too. The fractions dont give a whole no at all so they cant be a muliple of anything and hence they play another role which will GW be revealed at a later stage.

Here’s an example of replacing Allah in BiSM ALLaH AL-RaHMaN AL-RaHYM...

BiSM Bă'DălMďmKăf AL-RaHMaN AL-RaHYM

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16576.msg168456#msg168456

JK- Is "bdlmk" even a real word in the Arabic which can be used in this way? Remeber you cant just enter a grammatically incorrect or non-Arabic term. Also this has probably been done using a computer and people back then didnt have one. The numerical structure we've found so far is by long not all BUT it's a start and it has made some predictions already and this is the only way by which we can ultimately get to the true Quran. Theres no other way. If you know another, please tell me.

Also from the tampering site...

 http://www.submission.org/tampering.html

Where is the above hadith saying one of the scribes wanted to add a couple of verses and majority agreed? They talk as if they were there video taping the events even describing peoples emotions. Or is the above a fabrication by submission.org to deceive readers – shall we examine every hadith on this?

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/061.sbt.html

Look, here’s another suspect verse from the same Abi Khuzaima...

Volume 6, Book 61, Number 510:
Narrated Anas bin Malik:
Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an, so he said to 'Uthman, "O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and the Christians did before." So 'Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to 'Uthman. 'Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin AzZubair, Said bin Al-As and 'AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. 'Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies, 'Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. 'Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. Said bin Thabit added, "A Verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Qur'an and I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. (That Verse was): 'Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.' (33.23)

JK- Point to be noted is that according to sunnis/shia the two verses at the end of sura 9 are meccan whilst the sura is medinite. It is possible according to their history that a meccan sura contain medinite verses which came later when the prophet migrated to medina BUT it is IMPOSSIBLE that a medinite sura contain meccan verses and since these two verses are the only ones marked meccan in a medinite marked sura(9) it makes them highly suspicious. Also what about the hadith where "ali" said that something was ADDED to the Quran and  he wldnt put his clothes on until the issue is resolved? GOD Bless!