Author Topic: Islamic Constitution Draft (For Discussion)  (Read 6423 times)

Sha

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The Constitution?
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2003, 09:37:38 PM »
I am unable to access this page:

http://www.progressivemuslims.org/constitution.htm

Am I the only one having this problem? I have tried opening it many times in the previous three days. HELP!
Enter the realm of light

Abdelilah

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Islamic Constitution Draft (For Discussion)
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2003, 08:07:00 AM »
It doesn't work anymore.
I believe it was a link to the QT.

http://www.free-minds.org/quran.htm

Layth

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Islamic Constitution Draft (For Discussion)
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2003, 07:32:37 AM »
Peace,

The constitution draft is back-up again for open discussion...

Let all the legal eagles sharpen their pencils :)

http://www.progressivemuslims.org/constitution.htm

Layth
`And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!` (The Quran 39:45)

DoctorNO

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Islamic Constitution Draft (For Discussion)
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2003, 08:06:22 AM »
What are you trying to achieve here? Just a research on whether or not it is reasonable to use the Quran as a basis for constitution? The concept of a government that favors one religion over the others is truly frightening. Something would eventually go wrong. History proves that.
The Free-Mind among the free-minds, at your service.

Layth

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Islamic Constitution Draft (For Discussion)
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2003, 08:31:39 AM »
Peace,

Quote
What are you trying to achieve here? Just a research on whether or not it is reasonable to use the Quran as a basis for constitution? The concept of a government that favors one religion over the others is truly frightening. Something would eventually go wrong. History proves that.


You really need to 'relax' with us a little bit to see where we are heading :)

I get the feeling your problem is with the word 'religion' where you visualize a bunch of people slashing their foreheads and beating themselves for some strange god who has all sorts of fetishes!.

Religion to us is a SYSTEM.

You will accept the Greeks, Romans, Persians, Chinese, British, French, Americans, etc.. to write a constitution based on their own debates and discussions...Yet it makes you nervous when we do it because we are 'Muslims'!!!.

Come on...The only difference between us and the others is that we refer to the Quran for guidelines while they refered to the human works of Plato or King John (Magna Carta), etc...

Layth
`And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!` (The Quran 39:45)

DoctorNO

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Islamic Constitution Draft (For Discussion)
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2003, 09:00:38 AM »
Quote from: "Layth"

You really need to 'relax' with us a little bit to see where we are heading :)

Thats what I really want to see.

Quote from: "Layth"

I get the feeling your problem is with the word 'religion' where you visualize a bunch of people slashing their foreheads and beating themselves for some strange god who has all sorts of fetishes!.

no, I know a lot of religous people who are practically harmless to their own selves or to their neighbors. But I do see religion as a form of divisor that ultimately leads to discrimination.

Quote from: "Layth"

Religion to us is a SYSTEM.

Religion IS A SYSTEM of beliefs. Everybody knows that.

Quote from: "Layth"

You will accept the Greeks, Romans, Persians, Chinese, British, French, Americans, etc.. to write a constitution based on their own debates and discussions...Yet it makes you nervous when we do it because we are 'Muslims'!!!.

No, it makes me nervous when the constitution favors a spiritual view over another.  May it be Christian (as in the dark ages), Jewish (as in the OT), or Islamic (as we see now in the mid east).


Quote from: "Layth"

Come on...The only difference between us and the others is that we refer to the Quran for guidelines while they refered to the human works of Plato or King John (Magna Carta), etc...


And in doing so would favor the religion of Islam. Something an adherent to brag about.


------------
I wonder how polygamy can be incorporated into a democracy without being sexist.

And the quranic inheritance.
The Free-Mind among the free-minds, at your service.

Damon

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Islamic Constitution Draft (For Discussion)
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2003, 10:30:22 AM »
Peace be with you DoctorNo,

I really do believe you should take Layths' advice and "Relax".

Your concerns that you've aired are legitmit concerns, especially the danger of a Constitution favoring "One" group of people over all others.
And like you said, history has proven what a disaster that always turned out to be.

I think your biggest mishap about us here is that you think maybe we  will continue the same "biases" and "prejudice" that prior communities have perpertrated.

Another thing, I believe you are still thinking of "Islam" and "Muslims" as well as that perplexing word "Religion" by the same definition that Sunni's, Shia's, Salafiyya, etc. have spread throughout the land. I assure you we here DEFINATELY do not hold those views nor their definitions.

Islam is not a Religion. As Layth said, it is a "System". And no, it's not a system of Rituals and dogmatism.

It is a system that would require respect and tolerance for your fellow man REGARDLESS of nationality, sex, geographic location or so-called "Religous" beliefs for those who say they have one.

It is a system that guarantees that YOU DoctorNO as an Agnostic have 100 percent right to have that belief and the right to be respected as an Agnostic.

The important thing is not so much as "beliefs" or "dogmatism" or "rituals" or "labels" or "Identities" or any of that.

The IMPORTANT thing, where the constitution is concerned, is respect and honor of our fellow man.

That's the primary issue which has yet to be tackled correctly and the issue the believers here, GOD willing, are hoping to address and correct.

Others may claim to have done so, but reading History and looking at the present condition of this world, I really can't see how any body can make that claim.

GOD knows best and GOD is the One guiding us.

Peace,

Damon.

DoctorNO

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Islamic Constitution Draft (For Discussion)
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2003, 10:41:21 AM »
So what is the point of this "constitution" you are making? just for study purposes? Surely you guys dont intend to purchase an island and create your own state? And you cant just email this "constitution" to indonesia and expect them to adopt it.


Nevertheless its good to see a democracy-like-constitution based on the islamic point of view.
The Free-Mind among the free-minds, at your service.

Damon

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Islamic Constitution Draft (For Discussion)
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2003, 02:46:26 PM »
Peace DoctorNo,

Actually the answer to this question is quite simple;

Once we've all come to the solid conclusion of how a constitution should look based on man's natural and GOD-given rights and freedoms, then we spread theses Ideals along with the rest of the message of GOD alone.

The more believers who come to embrace GOD alone, the more believrs there will be to add input and help spread the constitution as well.

Remember, everything begins with a certain group of dedicated people to a certain idea.

Every so-called "state" philosophy or creed all began with a certain amount of people who were dedicated to those ideals to begin with and who were dedicated to having those ideals embraced by the majority.

Actually as I said in my last post, the biggest part of the project would be formulating the actual constitution itself and making sure that it covers the rights and freedoms of the PEOPLE and not just the Muslims or just the Christians or Just the Jehova Witnesses or just the Agnostics. And with anything else it would need to be implemented "fairly" as laid out and not just "sound good" on paper, but be corrupt in "practice".

These are my views and opinions concerning this matter and I'm sure you're aware that I cannot speak for everybody here, as there are many brothers and sisters here who have much better insight and wisdom than I do.

In fact, I Know of One DoctorNo who seems to have a lot to offer and brings quite a bit to the table himself. :wink:

Peace y'all and be good.

Damon.

Layth

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Islamic Constitution Draft (For Discussion)
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2003, 12:46:53 AM »
Peace Dr. No,

Quote
No, it makes me nervous when the constitution favors a spiritual view over another. May it be Christian (as in the dark ages), Jewish (as in the OT), or Islamic (as we see now in the mid east).


If the constitution is being discrimanatory as you say, then it would bother me and everyone here as much (perhaps even more) that it bothers you...In the Quran we are warned against being unfair or discriminatory. Therefore, a system designed under the Quran would give you and me 100% equal rights as long as we both operate within the law (do not murder, do not steal, do not bear false witness, etc..).

Quote
I wonder how polygamy can be incorporated into a democracy without being sexist.


If you read Yaseen's excellent research on the subject,you will find out how: http://www.free-minds.org/polygamy.htm

Quote
And the quranic inheritance.


If you mean by this the notion of giving the males more than the females, then that will be offset in the constitution by demanding the males to be legally responsible for financial support of the household and children.

Quote
So what is the point of this "constitution" you are making? just for study purposes? Surely you guys dont intend to purchase an island and create your own state? And you cant just email this "constitution" to indonesia and expect them to adopt it.


The purpose is to put our money where our mouth is and prove that the guidlines in the Quran can be converted into a dynamic and vibrant constitution guaranteeing the best for all involved...

How and when that is implemented could be in our life, or maybe 200 years in the future, or maybe never.

Quote
Nevertheless its good to see a democracy-like-constitution based on the islamic point of view.


Thank you for these kind words...

Layth
`And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!` (The Quran 39:45)