Author Topic: Hot/"ramadan" Answer  (Read 413495 times)

Ahmad Bilal

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Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #460 on: September 18, 2008, 03:31:03 AM »
Salaam Ahmad

Lets not waste time on nonsense talk. If this is how you see a blind person's situation that "There's no way he could physically do this. If his skin spoke out about it, it would testify for him that the man was blind" then it?s your understanding and you have your way but don't impose it on others.

I understand that a blind person is as much part of the deen as sighted ones, and the Moon is not an object of worship that had to be sighted to qualify fasting a path to muta'qeen. It?s an insult to an intelligent blind Muslim that he/she is exempt from fasting. This is common sense, this is my understanding and a blind person, by being present in the month of fasting, is amongst those who witnessed, unless he is on a journey or sick. I can't make it simpler then this.
If you have made up your mind that you would start your fasting according to Ayman's theroy, where  by hook or by crook you would  make sure that the month of fasting falls in the summer, even by skipping the 13th moon, as if one can skip time by that, ;then good luck. You are not answerable to me; we are all answerable to our creator. That is certainly not my deen

 :peace:


Peace Farida,

You are missing the whole concept of the fast. It says abstaining is required for those who witness/sight it, but it doesn't say that blind people can't abstain as well if they choose to... If a blind person hears from friends about the sighting of "shahru ramadhan" and they choose to abstain, who's preventing them? They can do so if they choose. But since they did/can not sight/witness it for themselves, it is not required. That's according to the reading... If the scripture was saying that EVERYONE PRESENT/LIVING is to fast the period, then this would also apply to non-muslims, since they are also "present" during this period. Why isn't it interpreted in that light? Do you not understand? The scripture sets a distinction between those who "WITNESS/SIGHT" the "shahru ramadhan" and those who don't, and this is clearly given in the reading. Who is a better witness than The God Himself? Surely, He has prepared us a book fully detailed, explaining all things. A blind person can be a believer in The God and in the message, so he is definately a follower of the system - not being able to sight the moon doesn't make a person an "unbeliever", does it?

Here's a question: Is a newborn baby, who is also "present"/living during the shahru ramadhan, exempt from the fast, or are we to starve the child because the period has come?

Peace,

Ahmad
"The true delight is in the finding out, rather than in the knowing." - Isaac Asimov

Soof

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Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #461 on: September 18, 2008, 03:31:27 AM »
Peace

Is anyone actually gaining any further insight into fasting or are people just growing more and more adamant in their own views on the Qur'an? What a tiresome exercise!

Peace
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Umm Tariq

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Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #462 on: September 18, 2008, 03:32:28 AM »
Peace all,

Who is "they"? I am just one person trying to find the truth for myself by participating in a forum discussion with others. I am trying to listen to all the views and follow the best. Instead of being personal, we should focus on the facts backed by evidences to arrive at the truth.

Truthseeker 11, my sentiments exactly.  That's all I am looking for as well and I guess we have to exhibit patience when we don't get that maashaa'a Allah.

To Farida,

"Arabic is not my native language,  I depend on the translations available, and I have explained in my post above to Ahmad how I understand 2:185, if you like you can educate me on that as well."

I am not sure which response you are talking about in particular, if you can paste it to me or give the link I will look at it.  However do you understand what I showed you about the use of shaheda in the reading?  Others have made issue with you about not seeing this difference, is it clear from the reading and is it possible or just to ignore it?

"if your contention is how would a blind person 'see' the full moon, they can't, so the conclusion is that they are exempted some how and you have a problem with that, well how do they witness a 'month' which is an abstraction?  Wouldn't a blind person have to rely on someone telling them that the month is now here start fasting because from what I can tell, correct me if I am wrong, you still agree that something, the new moon, has be seen to know that the month has started.  If not, a blind person, whether it's full moon or month, has to rely on others to tell them.  Just my observation.
 Also if we take witness as you do in this case, then technically, NOBODY knows whether they will 'witness' the whole month in advance i.e. death.  Death is the opposite of the type of witnessing that you want to use.  This is what really made this 'month' issue not make sense to me.  If the month still has the 'new moon' as a marker it has begun, I may be present (i.e. alive) to witness that but that's still only one day, what if I die the next day then technically I didn't witness the 'month' the time period which this word implies because I died but I only witnessed the starting day.  How do you reconcile that?  If a person dies thereafter, then witnessing the beginning of this 'month', the first night of the new moon, isn't any different from witnessing the 'full moon' but the issue of dying doesn't come up.  Or do you have some other way of knowing for sure the beginning of this 'month'?"


Can you please answer my questions here directly pertaining to the blind and about the issue of death.  As a simple comparision I see that you view ramadan as a name (but I'm not really sure how you know when it is, I asked that in my other post) and you still need to 'witness' a particular phase of the moon to know it has begun.  Taking shahr as full moon which needs to be witnessed and ramadan as a common word still produces the same results in reference to the blind to me.  I just want clear answers to my questions.

"To me seeing moon physically by each and everyone is not a requirement as long as it?s been acknowledged that the moon been sighted as a mark for the start of the month."

The first part is correct since the verse, the god, stipulates so whoever 'minkum' (from amongst you) witnesses it, but your last inclusion of 'being acknowledged' is not included in the verse. ???

Umm Tariq


farida

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Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #463 on: September 18, 2008, 05:27:56 AM »
Peace Farida,

You are missing the whole concept of the fast. It says abstaining is required for those who witness/sight it, but it doesn't say that blind people can't abstain as well if they choose to... If a blind person hears from friends about the sighting of "shahru ramadhan" and they choose to abstain, who's preventing them? They can do so if they choose. But since they did/can not sight/witness it for themselves, it is not required. That's according to the reading... If the scripture was saying that EVERYONE PRESENT/LIVING is to fast the period, then this would also apply to non-muslims, since they are also "present" during this period. Why isn't it interpreted in that light? Do you not understand? The scripture sets a distinction between those who "WITNESS/SIGHT" the "shahru ramadhan" and those who don't, and this is clearly given in the reading. Who is a better witness than The God Himself? Surely, He has prepared us a book fully detailed, explaining all things. A blind person can be a believer in The God and in the message, so he is definately a follower of the system - not being able to sight the moon doesn't make a person an "unbeliever", does it?

Here's a question: Is a newborn baby, who is also "present"/living during the shahru ramadhan, exempt from the fast, or are we to starve the child because the period has come?

Peace,

Ahmad

Salaam
Your go on to insist that a blind person is exempt but raise a ridiculous question about new born baby.
Now let me ask same question to you  let?s  say; a two year old happen to be outside in the garden playing in the summer evening and notice most obvious  full moon which marks start of your fasting then this  two year old is obliged to fast where as a healthy grownup blind person is exempt????
Unless you lock away kids in that summers  evening and make sure allow only those to come out who YOU think should witness and thus fast  :confused:
 :peace:

farida

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Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #464 on: September 18, 2008, 05:35:31 AM »
Peace

Is anyone actually gaining any further insight into fasting or are people just growing more and more adamant in their own views on the Qur'an? What a tiresome exercise!

Peace
Salaam Soof
As you know I was part of this debate to find out the truth for myself and there is no doubt left for me. Howver it was my world to Umm Tariq that I would reply to her that I came back  and in that process few more questions were thrown towards me and I had to reply otherwise I am out  I am not debating this anymore I have better things to do.

74:31 And We have set none but angels as Guardians of the Fire; and We have fixed their number only as a trial for Unbelievers,- in order that the People of the Book may arrive at certainty, and the Believers may increase in Faith,- and that no doubts may be left for the People of the Book and the Believers, and that those in whose hearts is a DISEASE and the Unbelievers may say, "What symbol doth Allah intend by this ?" Thus doth Allah leave to stray whom He pleaseth, and guide whom He pleaseth: and none can know the forces of thy Lord, except He and this is no other than a warning to mankind.   :peace:

farida

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Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #465 on: September 18, 2008, 05:48:45 AM »
Peace all,

Truthseeker 11, my sentiments exactly.  That's all I am looking for as well and I guess we have to exhibit patience when we don't get that maashaa'a Allah.

Umm Tariq



Salaam Umm Tariq
You obviously see only one side of the debate so I don?t think I would bother replying to your concern after this.
I must correct you that I do not see Ramadan is the name for our month of fasting it has now become a name, but when first time the Qur'an was revealed it was in summer evening in Northern Hemisphere and winter in Sothern hemisphere. The time continued, month of fasting has been rotating since then Please see my posts for details replies.
You have answers to all your questions in this thread and for the last time I am pasting my previous reply to you  as something to reflect on.
Please make some effort and look for my replies which answers all your queries, Its our month of fasting and we have better things to do

 
Peace Ayman,

I did not mention any punishment and this was not part of my question it will only divert attention from my concern.
The purpose of fasting:
2-183    O you who believe! Observing As-Saum (the fasting) is prescribed for you as it was prescribed for those before you, that you may become Al-Muttaqoon

Does that mean that there is no obligation on the blinds to work towards becoming Al-Muttaqoon are they born Muttaqeen due to having no sight ?
OR
There is an obligation to fast on those who have sight and who happen to witness scorching moon and thus need to become Muttaqeen?  Some people associate fasting with punishment so are they in fact punished for witnessing this event ???

Thank you for explaining this; as I said in my post no 29 in this thread that
... I am pretty sure that others too have, in the past, played their part in switching the months, but that does not mean I accept Ayman's version.

I would rather keep fasting in a random month than ending up like the Christians: http://www.candlegrove.com/solstice.html#turta
A linguistic puzzle.
The rebirth of the sun.
The birth of the Son.
Christmas was transplanted onto the winter solstice, some 1,600 years ago, centuries before the English language emerged from its Germanic roots. Is that why we came to express these two ideas in words that sound so similar?


If what you say is meant by the surah 17:12... surely in the Dome of the Rock sits Makaam-e- Ibrahim  and the  passage of light over the rock should confirm this . I have watched a  programme about  rays from the sun falling on those rocks.. Do You have any evidence that the rocks in the Dome of the Rock are aligned with the solstices and equinoxes,  I think this could be the way to solve this puzzle as:
An utterly astounding array of ancient cultures built their greatest architectures -- tombs, temples, cairns and sacred observatories -- so that they aligned with the solstices and equinoxes. Many of us know that Stonehenge is a perfect marker of both solstices
http://www.candlegrove.com/solstice.html#turta :

 :peace:
:peace:

Tlepsh

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Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #466 on: September 18, 2008, 07:34:50 AM »

I also agree that you are not seeing the real purpose of our discussion.  Your conclusion is that 'shahr' equals time, a month, and my conclusion is that it is most consistent in the reading that 'shahr' should be 'full moon' so you can't point out to me I am wrong using your conclusion.  I already included that the these two definitions do not equal each other.  I have looked at your perspective and I see inconsistencies which aren't there with using 'full moon' so we will have to agree to disagree.

I have 2 more points.  You bolded when I was quoting YOUR question about '4 sacred full moons', I do not agree that the word 'hurum' equates to 'sacred' which to me has religious baggage attached to it.  Here's how the god explains what He means by 4 (arba'a) hurum:

9:36 Verily the count of the shuhur with the god is twelve sharan in the book/ decree of the god the time He created the skies and the earth from them are arba'a hurum.  That is the straight/ valuable obligation so do not oppress/ wrong yourselves within/ during them...

2:217 They are asking you about the shahr haraam fighting therein.  Say fighting therein is kabeer...

5:95 O you who have believed do not kill the game while you are hurum

9:2  So travel through the earth arba'a ashhur and know that you cannot outstrip/ escape  the god...

9:5  So when the ashhur hurum have passed then fight the mushrikeen wherever you find them...

In 9:36, 2:217 and 5:95 the God is telling us what not to do during these 4 hurum which is why they are described as hurum.  In 9:2 one may wonder about why 4 ashhur, what's the significance so in 9:5 the god is confirming that these are the ashhur hurum in which, by 2:217, the believers are discouraged from fighting within this time frame which leaves the mushrikeen free to travel without worrying about the believers attacking them in anyway, what they do is something else. Importantly as well the god tells us this:

5:2 O you who have believed do not tuhilluu the sha'aair of the god nor the shahr haraam nor the...

This is another command showing the importance, according to our Creator, of the shahr haraam so it has nothing to with 'sacred' and idolization, I seek refuge with the god from shirk.

I hope from the god's verses you understand what hurum stands for now.  Our debate is only whether does the word 'shahr' mean 'month' (something arbitrary) or ' full moon'. 

Here is my last question to all who share your view on this point if any can answer CLEARLY, it's really important to me.

As a new muslim, I am faced, during the study of the god's book, with the issue of whether shahr means full moon or month.  When I first was made aware that shahr had the meaning of full moon I was astounded and it automatically cleared up my confusions with verse 2:185 when it's translated using 'month' with the words (new crescent of ) added to the verse.  Then I realized that if we don't take the meaning of ramadan and take it as a meaningless name then how on earth would I know when it is without referring to the arab sunni calendar?  I've already been duped by them so how can I trust them on anything relating to the god's message?  Without their calendar then that would mean that the god's book is not complete on it's own nor provides a clarification for everything.  That would be a big blow to belief itself.  Or am I to make up my own calendar, still it must be based on the god's message.

So now I am asking all of you, if I take shahr to be 'month' in 2:185 1. how do I know what that month is without referring to tainted outside sources? 2. how do I know when that month is without referring to tainted outside sources?

My only conditions for the answers I am seeking is that it should be based on the god's book alone without distorting any meanings and that the answer wouldn't violate the 4 hurum.

Umm Tariq

Peace Um Tariq,

Shahr has two primary meanings:
1.   apparent, conspicuous, manifest, notorious notable, commonly known
2.   The moon: or the moon when conspicuous and near to being full.

Ramadhan has two primary meanings:
1.   mourning, feeling sad, suffering, bothering, concerning
2.   scorching heat

Haram means:
1.   forbidden, prohibited, unlawful.

In God?s book, shahr is used to mean manifest in some verses and it is used to mean the full moon in some other verses. The meaning depends on the context and subject of the verse.

The word ramadhan is used only once in Good?s book (in 2.185) and its meaning is ?suffering, bothering, and concerning?

The word haram is always used to mean ?forbidden, prohibited, and unlawful? and it never means sacred.

Uncontrolled fantasies cause a miserable life for the human being and society and makes life as hell. Hell is all fire and suffering. The obvious suffering (Shahr ramadhan) is caused by the people when they are controlled by their fantasizes and they go astray. The obvious suffering is in the hearts and surroundings of the people. The great reading was descended as a guidance for people and clarifications from the guidance and the criterion when this intensive suffering which is caused by the fantasies of people was obvious.

Therefore we can translate 2.185 as follows:

2.185 The obvious/clear/apparent/noticeable suffering is when the reading was descended as a guidance for people and clarifications from the guidance and the criterion, so whomever among you experiences/witnesses the manifestation/sign/symptom, shall self discipline himself. And whomever was sick or traveling so a count of other days. The God wants to facilitate and not make it hard on you. And so complete the count and magnify The God for what He guided you and perhaps you would be thankful.
If we take shahr ramadhan as ?the physical scorching moon after the summer solstice? or ?month? it will be difficult to imagine how all the people (blind or not) living on the earth or on a space station (in future) may experience this shahr ramadhan.  On the other hand it is possible to experience the obvious suffering caused by the uncontrolled hidden fantasies of the people wherever they are.

This is explained in chapter 19 in verses 25 to 29:

19:25 And shake towards you the palm tree, it will drop ripe fruits.
19:26 So savor* it, and relax, and when you see anyone, then say, "I have pledged to the Almighty a "syauman"; therefore I shall not converse, today to anyone.'"
19:27 She went with it to her people, carrying him. They said, "O, Mary, you have committed indecency".
19:28 "O sister of Aaron; your father was not evil, nor was your mother unchaste."
19:29 Hence, she pointed at him; they said, "How could we converse with the messiac (Mahdi) infant?"

Did Mary witnessed ?shahr ramadhan??

She was blamed of committing indecency by her people. She witnessed the obvious anger of her people and she witnessed/experienced her obvious feelings of sadness and distress. She had to SELF DISCIPLINE herself before she meets her people. 
She was righteous in the way she dealt with her people.

2.183 ?O you who believe, SIYAM has been decreed for you as it was decreed for those before you, perhaps you may be RIGHTEOUS?.
 
The main purpose of SIYAM is to become RIGHTEOUS.

The Saum of Maryam is an example for us because she is one of those before us. One can become righteous if he trains himself or self discipline himself and abstains from uncontrolled fantasies that cause a miserable life for the human being himself the and society. I am not sure if not eating and drinking for some period may cause one to be righteous.

truthseeker11

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Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #467 on: September 18, 2008, 07:43:34 AM »
Peace Ayman,

Peace Truthseeker,

First, there is no need for any of those scenarios since even if one assumes like Belal that the passages in chapter 9 are arranged chronologically immediately following one another then there are many events described between 9:5 and 9:81, for example:

1. The battle in 9:25.
2. The event in 9:28.
3. The fight against the people of the book in 9:29.
4. The event in 9:40.
5. The fight against the hypocrites in 9:73.

The most important piece of evidence is in 9:86 which clearly says" "And when a chapter is descended...". We know for certain that the great reading was descended during "shahr ramadan" (2:185). So 9:81 describing "a hot time of the year" actually confirms that "shahr ramadan" occurs during the hot time of the year. So given this fact and the number of events that could have happened between 9:5 and 9:81, the fourth and I think the most likely scenario is that almost a year had passed and now we are back to the restricted full-moons again. Please remember that according to 2:217 BIG fighting is allowed during the restriction. The only thing the restriction is really about is hunting wild life. So this time around the believers are fighting the rejecters during the restricted period.

Peace,

Ayman

Thank you for bringing 2:217 and other events in chapter 9 to attention. 2:217 is the clincher and removes any confusion I had about the issue of war in restricted full-moons. The scenario described by you does appear to be the most likely one. The war described in 9:81 is most likely during the full-moon cycle of shahr ramadhan but not during the restricted full-moons described in 9:2 and 9:5 so those two events are most likely different ones.
6:116 And if you obey the majority of those on Earth they will lead you away from God?s path; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.

10:36 Most of them only follow conjecture. While conjecture does not avail against the truth in anything. God is aware of what they do.

2:170 And if they are told: ?Follow what God has sent down,? they say: ?No, we will follow what we found our fathers doing!? What if their fathers did not understand anything and were not guided?

28:75 And We will extract from every nation a witness, then We will say: ?Bring forth your proof.? They will then realize that all truth belongs with God, and what they had invented will abandon them.

truthseeker11

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Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #468 on: September 18, 2008, 08:29:42 AM »
Peace Tlepsh,

Peace Um Tariq,

Shahr has two primary meanings:
1.   apparent, conspicuous, manifest, notorious notable, commonly known
2.   The moon: or the moon when conspicuous and near to being full.

Ramadhan has two primary meanings:
1.   mourning, feeling sad, suffering, bothering, concerning
2.   scorching heat

Haram means:
1.   forbidden, prohibited, unlawful.

In God?s book, shahr is used to mean manifest in some verses and it is used to mean the full moon in some other verses. The meaning depends on the context and subject of the verse.

The word ramadhan is used only once in Good?s book (in 2.185) and its meaning is ?suffering, bothering, and concerning?

The word haram is always used to mean ?forbidden, prohibited, and unlawful? and it never means sacred.

Uncontrolled fantasies cause a miserable life for the human being and society and makes life as hell. Hell is all fire and suffering. The obvious suffering (Shahr ramadhan) is caused by the people when they are controlled by their fantasizes and they go astray. The obvious suffering is in the hearts and surroundings of the people. The great reading was descended as a guidance for people and clarifications from the guidance and the criterion when this intensive suffering which is caused by the fantasies of people was obvious.

Therefore we can translate 2.185 as follows:

2.185 The obvious/clear/apparent/noticeable suffering is when the reading was descended as a guidance for people and clarifications from the guidance and the criterion, so whomever among you experiences/witnesses the manifestation/sign/symptom, shall self discipline himself. And whomever was sick or traveling so a count of other days. The God wants to facilitate and not make it hard on you. And so complete the count and magnify The God for what He guided you and perhaps you would be thankful.
If we take shahr ramadhan as ?the physical scorching moon after the summer solstice? or ?month? it will be difficult to imagine how all the people (blind or not) living on the earth or on a space station (in future) may experience this shahr ramadhan.  On the other hand it is possible to experience the obvious suffering caused by the uncontrolled hidden fantasies of the people wherever they are.

This is explained in chapter 19 in verses 25 to 29:

19:25 And shake towards you the palm tree, it will drop ripe fruits.
19:26 So savor* it, and relax, and when you see anyone, then say, "I have pledged to the Almighty a "syauman"; therefore I shall not converse, today to anyone.'"
19:27 She went with it to her people, carrying him. They said, "O, Mary, you have committed indecency".
19:28 "O sister of Aaron; your father was not evil, nor was your mother unchaste."
19:29 Hence, she pointed at him; they said, "How could we converse with the messiac (Mahdi) infant?"

Did Mary witnessed ?shahr ramadhan??

She was blamed of committing indecency by her people. She witnessed the obvious anger of her people and she witnessed/experienced her obvious feelings of sadness and distress. She had to SELF DISCIPLINE herself before she meets her people. 
She was righteous in the way she dealt with her people.

2.183 ?O you who believe, SIYAM has been decreed for you as it was decreed for those before you, perhaps you may be RIGHTEOUS?.
 
The main purpose of SIYAM is to become RIGHTEOUS.

The Saum of Maryam is an example for us because she is one of those before us. One can become righteous if he trains himself or self discipline himself and abstains from uncontrolled fantasies that cause a miserable life for the human being himself the and society. I am not sure if not eating and drinking for some period may cause one to be righteous.

Your translation of "shahru ramadhan" is not grammatically and linguistically correct. In order for your translation of "obvious suffering" to be correct, it should be "ramadhan shahr", making shahr the adjective. The actual phrase is the other way around "shahr ramadhan", in which "ramadhan" is the adjective. It can only be translated as "scorching full-moon".

Others like Samia with better knowledge of Arabic grammar and linguistics are invited to give their comments on this.
6:116 And if you obey the majority of those on Earth they will lead you away from God?s path; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.

10:36 Most of them only follow conjecture. While conjecture does not avail against the truth in anything. God is aware of what they do.

2:170 And if they are told: ?Follow what God has sent down,? they say: ?No, we will follow what we found our fathers doing!? What if their fathers did not understand anything and were not guided?

28:75 And We will extract from every nation a witness, then We will say: ?Bring forth your proof.? They will then realize that all truth belongs with God, and what they had invented will abandon them.

truthseeker11

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Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
« Reply #469 on: September 18, 2008, 10:11:35 AM »
Peace rsw,

Sawm cant mean fasting from food. If the poor must fast because they can not afford to feed others, then why is feeding them an expiation? how can we feed them if they are supposed to be fasting? Sawm must mean abstaining from something else

We can feed the fasting poor when they break their fast and before dawn  :!
6:116 And if you obey the majority of those on Earth they will lead you away from God?s path; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.

10:36 Most of them only follow conjecture. While conjecture does not avail against the truth in anything. God is aware of what they do.

2:170 And if they are told: ?Follow what God has sent down,? they say: ?No, we will follow what we found our fathers doing!? What if their fathers did not understand anything and were not guided?

28:75 And We will extract from every nation a witness, then We will say: ?Bring forth your proof.? They will then realize that all truth belongs with God, and what they had invented will abandon them.