Author Topic: Jahiliya Poetry and Archeological Evidence  (Read 4447 times)

Wakas

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Jahiliya Poetry and Archeological Evidence
« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2004, 03:19:35 AM »
peace Idris,

Quote
the problem with exposing false history is discovering a motive to why they would falsify it, I think Wakas wrote a great article about it, hopefully I'll find it


This might be the article you were referring to:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/think786/Rethinking_Tradition_Modern_Islamic_Thought.htm


Wakas
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11.

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Idris

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Jahiliya Poetry and Archeological Evidence
« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2004, 08:11:04 AM »
peace,

Quote from: "savage_carrot"
Peace

Very interesting article...have to study this further!! So indy was right in searching for the holy grail there huh?!?  :)

Thanks for the link!!


lol no problem

Quote
This might be the article you were referring to:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/think786/Rethinking_Tradition_Modern_Islamic_Thought.htm


yea that was it, thanx Wakas

peace
Workers and their families may starve to death in the New World Order of economic rationality, but diamond necklaces are cheaper in elegant New York shops, thanks to the miracle of the market.
-Noam Chomsky

hafeez kazi

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Jahiliya Poetry and Archeological Evidence
« Reply #22 on: May 26, 2004, 03:24:12 PM »
WHY MECCA WAS NOT DESTROYED?

And never did We destroy a township, but it had its warners 26:208

Almost all towns had its warners and all were destroyed EXCEPT the town of MECCA

And if they belie you, those before them also belied. Their Messengers came to them with clear signs, and with the Scriptures, and the book giving light. Then I took hold of those who disbelieved, and how terrible was My denial (punishment)! 35:25/26

All the disbelievers of the town who belied their respective prophets were punished EXCEPT the disbelievers of MECCA

And Verily, they were about to frighten you so much as to drive you out from the land. But in that case they would not have stayed (therein) after you, except for a little while. 17:76

Prophet migrated after the threats to his life to MADINA but the people continued living in MECCA despite the promise of Allah to eradicate them from there..

(This was Our) Sunnah (rule or way) with the Messengers We sent before you (O Muhammad SAW), and you will not find any alteration in Our Sunnah (rule or way, etc.). 17:77

The Sunnah of Allah never changes. But the Meccans, who did not believe and should have wiped off from the face of the earth, continued dwelling in Mecca.
 
And nothing prevents men from believing, now when the guidance (the Qur'an) has come to them, and from asking Forgiveness of their Lord, except that the ways of the ancients be repeated with them (i.e. their destruction decreed by Allah), or the torment be brought to them face to face? 18:55

The ways of the ancients were not implemented on the people of MECCA despite their continued belying the prophet and disbelieving in Allah.
 
And Allah would not punish them while you (Muhammad SAW) are amongst them, nor will He punish them while they seek (Allah's) Forgiveness. 8:33

All prophets were removed from the site before destruction but the city of MADINA was not be destroyed because the prophet was dwelling among them and this was the sunnah of Allah and it never changes.
 
Summary

If MECCA was the place where prophet was born, then MECCA would have been destroyed and its people punished for belying the prophet and not believing in Allah, as Allah had done with the previous communities who belied their prophets and disbelieved in Allah.

This proves that prophet Muahhamad was not from Mecca but from some place in Jordan.

I believe that the place, from where the prophet migrated, must have been destroyed and only could be confirmed through the history of Jordan.

But at present it looks difficult or rather impossible to find out from the pages of the history, which place in Jordan was destroyed by Allah in the period 623 AD.

thanks.

savage_carrot

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« Reply #23 on: May 26, 2004, 04:23:06 PM »
Salam Hafeez...

Just a question...How do we know the people of mecca/whichever city the prophet was from did not ask God for forgiveness thus delaying/forgoing His retribution?!?

And Verily, they were about to frighten you so much as to drive you out from the land. But in that case they would not have stayed (therein) after you, except for a little while. 17:76
 
It's a bit confusing to me, can you maybe clarify it a bit more as to how it fits in with your summary? Thank you.

Nadia.
God has a plan, Gaius. He has a plan for everything and everyone.

Atreides; LeAdderNoir

hafeez kazi

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Jahiliya Poetry and Archeological Evidence
« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2004, 11:05:43 AM »
Salam to Nadia

Your quote

"Just a question...How do we know the people of Mecca / whichever city the prophet was from did not ask God for forgiveness thus delaying/forgoing His retribution?"

There is no verse in the Quran, which says that the Meccans did ask for forgiveness of their sins and neither there is any verse, which says that they did not ask for forgiveness.

But if we refer to history we find that the Meccans never ceased to attack the Muslims till the pact of Hudaibiya was signed and this is mentioned in Surah  48 and this verse was revealed precisely in the year 628 AD.(six years after migration)

The Meccans later broke the peace of treaty in the attack which one of their allied tribes (the Banu Bakr) made on the Muslim Banu Khuza'a (who were in alliance with the prophet), but this led to the conquest of Mecca and the sweeping away of the autocracy.  
 
It is clear that they never repented and neither prayed for their forgiveness but were bent upon destroying Islam until they were invaded, attacked, and subjugated.

Your Quote

And Verily, they were about to frighten you so much as to drive you out from the land. But in that case they would not have stayed (therein) after you, except for a little while. 17:76

This was not the first time that the pagans tried to drive out the prophet from Mecca but they tried many times and finally they succeeded in their mission

And (remember) when the disbelievers plotted against you (O Muhammad SAW) to imprison you, or to kill you, or to get you out (from your home, i.e. Makkah); they were plotting and Allah too was planning, and Allah is the Best of the planners. 8:30

The planning of the pagans to drive out the prophet or kill him or imprison him were round the clock and this forced the prophet to leave Mecca and lead to a safer place Madina as a refugee.
 
SOME MORE VERSES ON " why Mecca was not destroyed"

Say (O Muhammad SAW to the disbelievers): "My Lord pays attention to you only because of your invocation to Him. BUT NOW YOU HAVE INDEED DENIED (Him). So the TORMENT will be yours for ever (inseparable permanent punishment)." 25:77
 
Say (to the rejecters): "My Lord is not uneasy because of you if ye call not on Him BUT YE HAVE INDEED REJECTED (Him) and soon will come the INEVITABLE (punishment)!" 25:77

Say thou: my Lord careth not for you were it not for your prayer. Where as YE HAVE EVEN BELIED, so presently this denial shall come as the cleaving PUNISHMENT. 25:77

The promised PUNISHMENT never came upon the people of Mecca
   
And they ask you to hasten on the TORMENT (for them), and had it not been for a term appointed, the torment would CERTAINLY have come to them. And SURELY, it will COME UPON THEM suddenly while they perceive not! 29:53

They ask thee to hasten on the PUNISHMENT (for them): had it not been for a term (of respite) appointed the Punishment would CERTAINLY have come to them: and  CERTAINLY it willREACH THEM of a sudden while they perceive not! 29:53
 
And they ask thee to hasten on the torment. And had not there been a term appointed, the TORMENT would SURELY have come unto them. And SURELY it SHALL COME UPON THEM of a sudden while they perceive not. 29:53

The SURE and CERTAIN PUNISHMENT is YET TO COME upon the PEOPLE of MECCA

All the verses I quoted goes against our belief that prophet was from Mecca. Had he been from Mecca then surely Mecca would have been destroyed.

And nothing prevents men from believing, now when the guidance (the Qur'an) has come to them, and from asking Forgiveness of their Lord, except that the ways of the ancients be repeated with them (i.e. their destruction decreed by Allah), or the torment be brought to them face to face? 18:55

The Meccans did not believe, did not pray for their forgiveness but continued their fight with the believers till they were invaded, attacked and conquered therefore the SUNNAH of Allah has to be repeated on the people of Mecca and should be punished for their disbelief and hypocrisy.

Thanks.

savage_carrot

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« Reply #25 on: May 27, 2004, 01:10:10 PM »
Salam Hafeez....

May i first congratulate you on your article on Noah?!?....it was very enlightening...to know about his son...i always thought that well souls are different, thus it does not mean that everyone in a family would be righteous...but this would be the son firstly not being righteous, and then a lovechild...

So in this you are basically trying to say that Mecca was not destroyed because acc to history they were real bad and their time should have come...I agree that it seems unlikely it was where the prophet originated from as above, the land not trodden and people with no warners seems very obvious.....

But, imo, the verses could also mean that inevitable punishment being death that comes to all of us eventually....and without warning, and thus the torment and humiliation would be that of the final judgement and after....as we must take these verses to be universal as well as pertaining to that time period...so we have some options here:

1) Mecca was not destroyed - due to God forgiving them or it was never what historians wrote anyway.

2) Sort of farfetched but if we are doubting history then maybe it was destroyed in a way...earthquakes etc happen all the time but it was covered up and history rewritten (I find that hard to believe but it is an option).

3)Maybe God does not punish every band of disbelievers with natural disasters and His wrath....and maybe some of them just live to their natural term and death(the inevitable punishment) takes them and thats that...maybe this city just wasn't one of those cities as the history also says that they were lots of believers living there who did not migrate with the prophet, so maybe the city was spared because of them?

I'm just presenting different scenarios here because we don't know for a fact any one thing....unless we have solid proof that it was one scenario and not the other we can just theorise...and there can quite plausibly be any of the above or more that i have not yet thought of cases that could be what happened....

Would like to hear your opinion!!

Peace
God has a plan, Gaius. He has a plan for everything and everyone.

Atreides; LeAdderNoir

hafeez kazi

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« Reply #26 on: May 27, 2004, 03:13:22 PM »
SALAM NADIA

Let me correct you.

It was not me who wrote the article on Noah's Son, therefore I am not the rightful owner of your congratulations.

You have placed some positive points to ponder in reply to my article "why Mecca was not destroyed"

All your questions are based on assumptions and cannot be answered from the Quran but if you read my article reposted by brother Idris in this thread, in which I have given a concrete proof that the prophet was not from Mecca, then I hope you will get all your answers especially when you read the verses quoted under the heading " THE TOWNS DESTROYED"

According to the Quran, Hadith and History, Mecca was never a town / city which was destroyed by Allah as a punishment for disbelief.

But the verses of the Quran clearly describes Mecca as town / city being destroyed before by Allah as punishment for their disbelief in Allah and His messenger.

Now link these verses with the verses of  " WHY MECCA WAS NOT DESTROYED" and you will get a complete picture and understanding of MECCA and will help you getting answers to your own questions.

The verses of the QURAN are explicit and self-explanatory and do not need any interpretation, what it requires is proper understanding logic and no preconceived thoughts.

To be honest it is very difficult to answer your questions.

Thanks.

savage_carrot

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« Reply #27 on: May 27, 2004, 05:05:05 PM »
Salam Hafeez

I'd like to know who did...but thank you for posting it where others can learn something from it!

Yes, I agree mostly with your article there...it seems very probable that the prophet was from Jordan....but as with anything, I have to study this further...

I normally ask questions from other people's perspectives, so that it's easier to get everything in order and see if I have missed anything...especially from the perspective of people who would disagree with me...

Thank you...

Nadia
God has a plan, Gaius. He has a plan for everything and everyone.

Atreides; LeAdderNoir

hafeez kazi

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« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2004, 04:27:58 AM »
Salam Nadia

We learn through errors and critics lead to perfection.
 
And follow not that of which thou hast no knowledge; for every act of hearing or of seeing or of (feeling in) the heart will be enquired into (on the Day of Reckoning). 17:36
 
Those who are perfectionist always ask questions.

When I read QURAN from the Sunni perspective I found nothing wrong in the translation, but when I critically examined the verses I was astounded to find many mistakes or blunder or rather corruption.

Some 20 years before I came across one verse in Surah Luqman

And of mankind is he who purchases idle talks (i.e.music, singing, etc.) to mislead (men) from the Path of Allah without knowledge, and takes it (the Path of Allah, the Verses of the Qur'an) by way of mockery. For such there will be a humiliating torment (in the Hell-fire). 31:6

One of my friends told me that LAHWAL HADITH is pertaining to music and songs. I was not convinced with his explanation so I decided to find out myself the truth. During those days my knowledge of Islam was ZERO. I read Ibn Kathir's, Abdullah Yousuf Ali's, Abul Ala Maududi's and so many other writer's commentary on the above verse. In almost all I got the same the same message, which my friend explained. Then I read the Hadith on this verse and after reading it I was fully convinced that music and songs were prohibited for Muslims.

But when I critically examined the hadith I found that they are all fabricated and attributed to the prophet and many hadith contradict the Quran. This prompted me to disbelieve in hadith for the reason that they are written by men.

I came into the true fold of Islam by the virtue of the verse LAHWAL HADITH, but when I became a submitter I wrote an article on LAHWAL HADITH, which you will find in the Hadith Section and which contradicts my earlier belief.

My first understanding was based on hadith

The second understanding is based on Quran only.

The hadith and Quran is like Nos. 6 and 9. If I hold No. 6 written on a piece of paper on my palm, it will appear 6 to me but at the same time it will appear 9 to you if you are standing opposite to me.
 
LESSON: do not accept anything blindly, but use your logic, ask yourself, ask others, ask the critics, ask the friends, ask the enemies and merge all this and edit and get the answer.

The answer will be near perfection.

Thanks.

savage_carrot

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« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2004, 08:13:45 AM »
Salam Hafeez

That's good to hear...my own story was somewhat different, as i've never really had any rituals per se in my life but would make contact with God all the time...I couldn't call myself religious as I didn't do the things the others did and always thought that maybe I'm lacking in some way...after i turned 16, i started reading the Book....and took things from it somehow, even though the translations were very dry (i realise that now).
  And now almost 10 years later, things happened in my life which led me from one place to another, more knowledge than the last...and now finally i've come across this site a couple weeks back and realised what i have to do...put more effort into this...learn, not just for myself but for my family and the generation that will come after us...I just hope that gradually more and more people will get into this and learn for themselves rather than sit passively, letting others do the thinking for them, however flawed it might be...

Quote
LESSON: do not accept anything blindly, but use your logic, ask yourself, ask others, ask the critics, ask the friends, ask the enemies and merge all this and edit and get the answer.


Completely agree!

Peace

Nadia
God has a plan, Gaius. He has a plan for everything and everyone.

Atreides; LeAdderNoir