Author Topic: Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari  (Read 16546 times)

Sara

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Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
« Reply #40 on: April 11, 2004, 08:38:46 PM »
LoL PrinceZ?D, you are desi, aren't you?

shamsul-arefin

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Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
« Reply #41 on: April 11, 2004, 08:48:06 PM »
Quote from: "PrinceZ?D"
Quote from: "shamsul-arefin"
you see, according to your view anyone can chop off another persons head and say that he/she has done it for the love of prophet and I hope your type of thinking will find it totally ok.


Why would anyone want to chop someone's head for the love of the Prophet (pbuh)??? Are you feeling ok??  :roll:


thats something you have to ask those who do it.

Quote
Any obssessive love for a wordly thing or purpose more than the love of Allah (swt) and the Prophet (pbuh) and for striving in religion would be in vain and would result in disbelief. See quotes above.


Obsessive love for anything can make a person insane. Even if its love for prophet or God.

An insane person can go about anything such on God, prophet, Pir, gf, money or whatever but that doesn?t mean that he will be able to give reasonable decisions. So in a way, Obsession with anything is bad.

thanks for your time with this hadith....and I hope the discussion was enough for a person with sound mind to drag their own conclusion/understanding about it. But if anyone wish to continue more than you are welcome..:)

I will be posting another hadith for your explanation?

peace

Incognito

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Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
« Reply #42 on: April 12, 2004, 07:21:31 AM »
Salaam PrinceZ?D

Quote
LOL!!! Funny, how no one has ever heard of a death caused by a "fly" falling in the person's cup!!! LOL!!!  Nice scientific proof.


Check out these website

http://www.watercan.com/pdf/technote13.pdf

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2000-11/ASfM-Fiav-0111100.php

http://www.aldeaglobal.com.ar/agua/wbd.htm

And please reassess your love for the prophet;

2.164: Surely, in the creation of heavens and earth, and the differences between night and day, and the ships that sail in the sea for the benefit of mankind, and what God has sent down of water from the sky so He brings the earth back to life after it had died, and He sent forth from it every creature, and the movement of the winds and the clouds that have been designated between the earth and the sky are signs for a people that understand.

2.165: And from among the people are some who take other than God as equals to Him, they love them as they love God; but those who believe love God more strongly; and when those who were wicked see the retribution, they will see that all power belongs to God, and that God is severe in retribution.

2.166: When those who were followed will disown those who followed them, and they will see the retribution, and all excuses have abandoned them.


On the Day of Judgement Muhammed will disown you and the conjecture which you follow. :cry:

Peace

ayman

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Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
« Reply #43 on: April 12, 2004, 01:06:05 PM »
Peace on who followed the guidance,

The first question that comes into mind when one encounters lunatics promoting the medicinal benefits of dipping flies into food and drink is where would one even start in the face of such nonsense deceptively presented as science?

The famous fly Hadith that is attributed to the prophet is repeated many times in slightly different versions in the book of Bukhari, making it one of those highly reliable Hadiths according to the nonsensical science of Hadith. Hence, placing doubt in this Hadith will unavoidably place a shadow of doubt on ALL Hadiths. I hope that it is now clear why Ahl-al-Hadith will defend such falsehood at any cost. Here are two out of the many similar Hadiths:

Volume 4, Book 54, Number 537:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said "If a house fly falls in the drink of anyone of you, he should dip it (in the drink), for one of its wings has a disease and the other has the cure for the disease."

Volume 7, Book 71, Number 673:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "If a fly falls in the vessel of any of you, let him dip all of it (into the vessel) and then throw it away, for in one of its wings there is a disease and in the other there is healing (antidote for it) i e. the treatment for that disease."

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/054.sbt.html#004.054.537
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/071.sbt.html#007.071.673


The main contention of those who concocted those Hadiths is that "in one wing of the fly is the disease/venom and in the other wing is the cure/antidote".

By making such general statements about each of the wings of the fly, the Hadiths fabricators have once again inadvertently exposed the falsehood of their Hadiths and have embarrassed their sectarian Ahl-al-hadith cohorts. Likewise, both Frank and PrinceZED demonstrate that they are hopelessly unaware of common logical fallacies such as "hasty generalization" as they fail or deliberately ignore to address the main thesis of their Hadith:

"IN ONE WING OF THE FLY IS THE DISEASE/VENOM AND IN THE OTHER WING IS THE CURE/ANTIDOTE".

How hard can it be to pinpoint the "good wing"? Unlike many other insects, the housefly only has TWO wings. With even simple trial and error people could have pinpointed the "good wing" if such thing existed. Failure to pinpoint the "good wing" and the inevitable demise of some people who got sick or even died after heeding the advice given by the Hadith explains why some people might have come up with overstretched interpretation of the hadith.

On other forums where he personally posts his nonsense such as soc.religion.islam, I have exposed Frank's master, Hajj Jibril, as a fraud who on other occasions conjured up references to "scientifically" support nonsensical Hadiths such as those promoting the medicinal benefits of Camel Urine. Hence, I am not surprised that we see such nonsense from him:

Quote from: "Hajj Gibril"
Dr. Ghyath Hasan al-Ahmad in his book al-Tibb al-Nabawi fi Daw' al-`Ilm al-Hadith ("Prophetic Medicine in the light of Modern Science") (1995 2:188-189) mentions that a Dr. Nab?h D?`ish ran an experiment at King `Abd al-`Aziz University in Ryadh in which he created ten bacterial cultures from samples of sterilized fluid into which a fly fell without being immersed; ten more bacterial cultures from samples into which a fly fell and was immersed once; ten more from samples into which the fly was immersed twice; and ten more from samples into which the fly was immersed three times. The results showed that bacterial colonies thrived in the first set but were stunted and depleted in the second, more so in the third, and most in the fourth set.


The above experiment only serves as a possible explanation to why despite having large amounts of funding King Abd al-Aziz University and all other universities in Saudi Arabia have a poor track record of scientific research and discovery. The reader has to remember that this is the same education and research system that appointed sheikh Bin-Baz as President of the University of Madina. This despite the fact that he promoted that the earth is flat (based on Hadiths) and issued a "fatwa" that whoever claims it is spherical is an atheist.

Quote from: "Hajj Gibril"
It is established that house flies are carriers of dangerous pathogens of animals and humans. Even the muscaphobic critics of this hadith are forced to admit that no one at the time of the Prophet, upon him peace, knew that flies carry such harmful organisms. Whence the observation that "under one of its wings there is venom"?


I don't think that the author is giving the people at the time of the prophet enough credit. Surely, unlike those here who promote the "good fly wing" Hadith, even back then people would have been intelligent enough to know that flies prefer to hang around filth and that filth makes people sick. It must have also been observed that people who ate food that has been infested with flies became sick in some cases. So, even though people did not know what viruses and bacteria were, anybody would have known that flies carried some harm.

Here is another Hadith, which could only be used to prove that at the time of Al-Nisa'i people knew that dipping flies was harmful:

A sound-chained version in Ahmad, al-Tahawi, al-Nasa'i, and Ibn Majah (the latter two mention only the second half) states:

 <<Sa'id ibn Khalid said: I went in to see Abu Salama. He brought us some butter and date pastry. A fly fell into the dish. Abu Salama began to submerge it (yamquluhu) with his finger. I said, "Uncle! What are you doing?" He said: "Truly, Abu Sa`id al-Khudri told me that the Messenger of Allah said, 'In one of the fly's two wings there is poison and in another, its antidote. If it falls into food, submerge it in it; for it sends the poison first and keeps the cure last.'">> Al-Tahawi in Sharh Mushkil al-Ath?r (8:339 #3289) has, <<Uncle! Allah forgive you! What are you doing?>>


Again, if the above Hadith can be used to prove anything, it can only be used to prove that at the time of Al-Nasa'i the presently famous fly Hadith was not widely known as the voodoo science of Hadith claims and dipping a fly was seen as a disgusting and abhorrent act.

Quote from: "Hajj Gibril"
Second, from the perspective of logic, if the fly did not carry some sort of protection in the form of an antidote or immunity, it would perish from its own poisonous burden and there would be no fly left in the world.


There are many species that carry pathogens harmful to other species but harmless to their own. It has more to do with the virus or bacteria itself having a design capable of attacking specific systems in other species while incapable to attack the very different systems of the carrier specie. For example, a virus designed to attack the houseflies' digestive system will probably be totally harmless to humans because we have a different type of digestive system altogether NOT because humans carry the antidote to the fly's disease. Hence, from the perspective of logic, Hajj Jibril's arguments are simple minded and border on childish.

Moreover, the Hadith doesn't leave room for Hajj Jibril, Frank, or PrinceZED, or anyone here including myself to guess what form of protection the fly may carry. The Hadith unambiguously states that in one wing is the disease/venom and in the other wing is the cure/antidote, a clear falsehood by any measure.

Quote from: "Hajj Gibril"
Further, the transmission of what the fly carries in or on its body is not an automatic fact. For example, the microbe responsible for ulcers and other stomach ailments can live on houseflies, although it remains to be seen whether flies transmit the pathogen. http://www.sciencenews.org/sn_arc97/6_7_97/ref1.htm


The above reference, as well as the citation from Science magazine, has nothing to do with validating the statement "in one wing of the fly is the disease/venom and in the other wing is the cure/antidote". It seems to be cited merely for the "sciencenews" name in the URL to add an aura of credibility to an otherwise unscientific article. The same can be said for the following references:

Quote from: "Hajj Gibril"
http://lamar.colostate.edu/~insects/systems/digestion/plenuryrd.html
http://www.sciencefriday.com/pages/2000/Jul/hour1_072100.html
http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/tocrender.fcgi?iid=1253


Surely, any rational person can see that all the other references such as those from the Translation of the Meanings of Sahih al-Bukhari, al-Jami` li-Mufradat al-Adwiya wal-Aghdhiya, Mukhtasar al-Suwaydi fil-Tibb, etc. are devoid of scientific value and mostly rely on circular arguments.

The fact is that no matter what the Ahl-al-Hadith say, they cannot change the reality that the wing of the fly is NOT even the main culprit for transmitting disease. The main culprits are the legs that get contaminated by walking over manure and other materials containing infectious organisms. Flies excrete their fecal material wherever they come to rest and thereby mechanically transmit disease organisms without the need for any of their wings to even touch the surface. Because flies cannot eat solid food directly, they feed by regurgitating saliva on it. Hence, flies redeposit disease agents with each time that they defecate, feed or vomit. By comparison to the Sunni "al-dhubab tahir" even the cockroach is hygienic.

Quote from: "Hajj Gibril"
The Prophetic Sunna is an endless manual of healthy living and practical husbandry for people of all walks of life, especially the poor. The Prophet, upon him peace, at all times directed his Umma to avert waste and penury even in unsanitary conditions.


Unless Bukhari is someone's prophet then the real "prophetic" sunna has no relation to the book of Bukhari and the like. The prophet, like all other prophets such as Ibrahim followed "sunnat Allah". There is never any mention of "sunnat-al-nabi" or "sunnat mohamed" in the quran. Of course, the Hadith doesn't mention anything about the conditions (sanitary, unsanitary, or otherwise) under which dipping the fly should be applied hence the author is taking the reader on another speculative trip.

Quote from: "Hajj Gibril"
Just as the hadith on camel milk and urine reveals knowledge of dietetics and natural medicine, so does the hadith of the fly reveal knowledge of preventive medicine and immunology. In this respect the command in these hadiths, as in many others, denotes an advisory Sunna of permissibility, not a literal obligation. "The command [of immersing the fly] denotes counsel (al-amru lil-irshad) so as to counter disease with cure." Al-Qastallani, Irshad al-Sari (5:304).


In his "camel urine" article Hajj Jibril relied on endorsing the fanatic Hindu Ayurveda fraud and on conjuring up references to support that weird Sunni fetish. Similarly, as we saw, his marketing of the "good fly wing" antidote is just as flimsy as that of the "camel urine" tonic.

Quote from: "Hajj Gibril"
Despite the abundance of supporting evidence for the authenticity of these medicinal narrations (camel and fly) on the one hand and for their scientific viability on the other, certain voices continue to reject them on both counts. Principle skepticism of authentically transmitted narrations that pertain to facts demonstrated by ancient and modern science, or whose scientific worth is just now coming into view, is the wont of stagnant minds and diseased hearts for which there is no cure save the mercy of our Lord.

Hajj Gibril


Despite the abundance of evidence refuting that in one wing of the fly is the disease and in the other the antidote, some people will continue to carelessly push the alleged medicinal uses of fly wings and work backwards to dig out any unscrupulous or unrelated sources to support their dogmatic view. This is as hypocritical as Ahl-al-hadith who dare to promote such falsehood yet most of them will not eat or feed their children food or drink where a fly has taken a dip and thus should see verse 26:226.

If they have children, I strongly advise Frank, PrinceZED, and all Sunni parents NOT to obey the Hadith and not to feed their helpless young babies, who are especially vulnerable in the face of disease, food or drink where a fly has taken a dip. If even one Sunni parent who would have bought Frank, PrinceZED, and Hajj Gibril's arguments heeds my advice and as a result one child is saved from disease or death, then all my writing on this forum and all other forums would have been worthwhile. As for those who promote this Hadith, if they don't repent and correct by denouncing this Hadith and one child dies as a result of their scam, I am certain that, like all of us, they will be held fully accountable on the day of the account. However, on that day their falsehood will not have any weight.

16:105. Indeed who fabricates the lies/falsehood are those who do not have faith in The God's verses/evidences, and those, they are the liars.

Peace on who followed the guidance,

Ayman.
_________
22:41. Those who if We empowered them in the earth they upheld the learning connection/"salat" and brought the purification/betterment/"zakat", and ordered with the kindness and forbade disguised-obscenity, and to The God are the decisions/matters' end results.

Tay

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Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
« Reply #44 on: April 12, 2004, 01:38:39 PM »
Peace Ayman,

Excellent Post.

Quote
As for those who promote this Hadith, if they don't repent and correct by denouncing this Hadith and one child dies as a result of their scam, I am certain that, like all of us, they will be held fully accountable on the day of the account.


This is what amazes me. The Ahl-al-Hadith will most likely not be dining on marinated flies, nor will they feed it to their families, but they go right ahead prescribing it to the rest of the world, as if there is some glory in justifying this disgusting advice.

6:93 Who can be a greater wrongdoer than the one who fabricates a lie against Allah, or claims receiving Revelation while he has received none? Or someone who says, ?I, too, can bestow the like of what Allah has bestowed.? If only you could see such transgressors reach the pangs of death! The angels extend their hands to them saying, ?Bring out your egos. This day you will be awarded a punishment of disgrace for speaking lies concerning Allah, and being arrogant to His revelations.?

Thanks.

Peace,
Tay
And you see the mountains, you think they are solid, while they are passing by like the clouds. The making of God who perfected everything. He is Expert over what you do. [27:88]

Jaxal

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Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
« Reply #45 on: April 12, 2004, 02:59:58 PM »
SaLaM...

PrincessZed gave the excuse that a poor man will have to waste his milk or water or whatever... so the hadeeths tell him that he dont have to do that.. he can simple dip the fly whole in the water or milk .. and drink it...

But.. what if a cockroach falls in? what if an eartworm falls in? or a beetle or a mosquito falls in? what then? the same poor man will HAVE to throw his milk or water.. or whatever.. tough luck for him eh?

In this age... water is available everywhere.. if something falls into the glass.. just throw it all out.. clean the glass with some anti bacterial soap.. and fill it again... simple!!
She Made Me See The World In A Grain Of Sand.
When The Only Choice You Have Left Is The Wrong One, It'S Not A Choice Anymore... It's Fate.

PrinceZ?D

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Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
« Reply #46 on: April 12, 2004, 05:19:33 PM »
Quote from: "Incognito"
Salaam PrinceZ?D

Quote
LOL!!! Funny, how no one has ever heard of a death caused by a "fly" falling in the person's cup!!! LOL!!!  Nice scientific proof.


Check out these website

http://www.watercan.com/pdf/technote13.pdf

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2000-11/ASfM-Fiav-0111100.php

http://www.aldeaglobal.com.ar/agua/wbd.htm


First, of all, let me get this straight to you.. no one disagrees with the fact that flies CAN transmit infections and diseases. Even the Hadith of the prophet states that one of the wing of the fly carries a disease.

However, we are looking at an ISOLATED case where a fly falls in your drink, what do you do in this case??? We are not looking at the big picture of "do flies carry infentions>". Of course they do.

We are looking at the scenario of what to do when a fly falls in your drink. In this case, see the scientific facts in the artivle posted by Frank to see what it shows.



Quote
And please reassess your love for the prophet;

2.164: Surely, in the creation of heavens and earth, and the differences between night and day, and the ships that sail in the sea for the benefit of mankind, and what God has sent down of water from the sky so He brings the earth back to life after it had died, and He sent forth from it every creature, and the movement of the winds and the clouds that have been designated between the earth and the sky are signs for a people that understand.

2.165: And from among the people are some who take other than God as equals to Him, they love them as they love God; but those who believe love God more strongly; and when those who were wicked see the retribution, they will see that all power belongs to God, and that God is severe in retribution.

2.166: When those who were followed will disown those who followed them, and they will see the retribution, and all excuses have abandoned them.


On the Day of Judgement Muhammed will disown you and the conjecture which you follow. :cry:

Peace



LOL!!!! LOL!!! LOL!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


This is the habit f the so called "Qur'anists", they think they can associate ANY verse with ANYONE!!! :lol:

They label the verses that are revealed in reference to the unbelievers with those who believe in Allah (swt). !!!!! :lol: :lol:

This is the level of intellect they have!!! :lol: :lol:

As you can see CLEARLY, the message is going out to those "who have taken other gods besides Allah".. Now prove to me that I BELIEVE that Muhammad (pbuh) Is GOD. Please prove this to me if you but speak the truth.


I love prophet Muhammad (pbuh) for the Sake of Allah (swt). and my Love for the prophet (pbuh) is GREATER than the love I have for Allah (swt) :)

This is a fact and you can't do anything to change it :)

"Say: 'If your fathers or your sons or your brothers or your wives or your tribe, or any wealth you have acquired, or any business you fear may slump, or any dwelling-places which please you, are dearer to you than Allah and His Messenger and fighting hard in jihad in His Way, then wait until Allah brings about His command.'" (9:25)

Anas reported that the Messenger of Allah said, "None of you will believe until I am more beloved to him than his children, his father and all people." (al-Bukhari, Muslim & an-Nasa'i)



Please show me how following the words of God for loving the Holy Prophet (pbuh) means that I don't believe in Allah (swt).  :?

TheNabi

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Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
« Reply #47 on: April 12, 2004, 05:23:15 PM »
Peace ZED

You said earlier that you would dip the fly in the drink and THEN throw the drink away. So I ask you, why dip the fly in the drink if you will not be drinking it? If the fly has the cure for the disease it carries on the other wing is there a problem you have with drinking your drink?

Joe
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek for verification & knowledge. ~> [3/190-191; 17/

PrinceZ?D

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Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
« Reply #48 on: April 12, 2004, 05:54:11 PM »
Quote from: "TheNabi"
Peace ZED

You said earlier that you would dip the fly in the drink and THEN throw the drink away. So I ask you, why dip the fly in the drink if you will not be drinking it? If the fly has the cure for the disease it carries on the other wing is there a problem you have with drinking your drink?

Joe


LOL!! We are going in circles. I have already given a reply to this. Sorry, if I reply to that, then same questions and same answers will be given. If you really want an answer, read my replies in this thread above. Thanks. :)

TheNabi

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Debate -On the issue of "Dipping Fly" from Bukhari
« Reply #49 on: April 12, 2004, 06:04:44 PM »
Peace ZED

So dipping the fly in the drink to not drink the drink is beneficial to the fly?

Joe
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek for verification & knowledge. ~> [3/190-191; 17/