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"The" killer argument against hadiths.

Started by truth, January 04, 2004, 05:29:48 PM

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truth

Peace be upon all readers,

I was thinking tonight about how one might approach the whole issue of PROVING that the hadith are fabricated and wrong to believe as guidance. The answer came while I was reading about the greatest topic of hadith which happens to be the 'miraj' - the mystical night journey of the prophet. My criticism is of the hadith version not on whether such a journey/vision occurred or not.

I do not believe there is an argument that can be put up against this one by any true believer of hadith. I hope it is the final argument one ever needs to convice people of how wrong hadith are especially since this particular hadith story is the one that traditional muslims place all their trust in as far as Salat goes.

It is said in hadith that the number and form of the 5 daily ritual prayers were prescribed to Muhammad during the night journey (miraj) when a bargain (assisted by Moses) occurred in the heavenly realm. The story is elaborate but the important fact for the purposes of the argument against hadith believers is that ritual 5 time a day prayers were commenced FOLLOWING the miraj.

There is no explicit details of any heavenly journey in the Quran BUT the hadithists will have you believe that Surah 17, verse 1 refers to the miraj - the night journey.  In fact 17:60 does mention a vision shown to the prophet as a test of faith for the people; which might refer to the miraj however remember that it is the hadith's elaborate version I am talking about. In any case this event takes place around the revelation of surah 17.

A hadithist cannot move away from the elaborate version of the miraj as it is what is accepted by 100% of hadith scholars. There is alot at stake in this story as it forms the basis of the most important 'pillar of Islam' according to hadithists.

Now the interesting thing is that the miraj is said to have occurred anywher from 1 to 3 years before the hijrah to Medina. Therefore the revelation of surah 17 occurred around this time. There was no ritual prayer before this event according to hadithists.

It so happens that there are references to SALAT in surahs revealed before surah 17! A good example is Surah 20 TaHa - which is according to a strong hadith, the surah that resulted in the conversion of Umar to Islam in the 6th year of the prophets mission well before any 'hadith style' miraj had occurred. 20:14 and 20:132 have clear references to Al-Salat.

There is more evidence. Surah 19 Maryam was revealed before the emigration to Ethiopia according to hadith as this surah was recited to the Ethiopian Negus and yet it also contains the word Al-Salat in 19:31, 19:55, and 19:59.

Another surah having internal evidence of being revealed before the Ethiopian migration is 29 - Ankabut which speaks of Salat in 29:45.

Even surah 107 has Salat within it but apparently this surah has a bit of controversy about when it was revealed; whether Makkah or Medina so I won't press that issue.

I've only spent half an hour looking for all this so I'm sure there are more evidences to add to what I have uncovered.


It should be obvious then that if the hadith version of the miraj is true, in which the 5 daily prayers were enjoined then what do the revelations prior to the night journey (ie. surah 17 according to the hadiths accounts) that have Al-Salat in them refer to then?

Can the hadithists resolve this question? I think not.

May God increase us in guidance.
Peace.


"the Knower of the Unseen, and He reveals unto none His secret,
Save unto a messenger whom He has chosen, and He made an affirmer before him and another follow him.

Leila_B

Salamu alaikum,

I remember having a discussion with someone about salat before the prophet Muhammed and they claim that although they made salat they didn't do it regularly and exactly as it is done today. I think the argument is that the Mira'aj gave the uniformity and regularity of salat whereas the earlier muslims had a "simpler" (if you will) version of salat.

However, I remember looking through Bukhari,Muslim and Tirmidhi and cannot honestly find any complete description of how salat is to be performed. So the case that hadith explains salat is not strong anyways. Wa allahu aalam ..

Leila

zenje

Salaam truth,
I like the 'killer argument', and didnt think of it before. But here's a question, and I'm not sure if I missed it in your post... there's that story where the prophet (Muhammad) supposedly went on this journey to bargain about the number of Prayers, right? If that's the case, then isn't it possible there was 'Salat'/Prayer already? Or does the story specify that this was the first time 'Salat'/prayers was introduced? If that's the case, then there's much more than just when the suras were revealed! Like Ibrahim, Shuayb and all who upheld salat, according to the Qur'an, i.e. way before this 'journey'. I hope I'm clear.
Peace
If they turn away, then Say: "God is enough for me, there is no god but He, in Him I put my trust and He is the Lord of the great throne." [9:129]

adik_awang

Salam truth,

Allow me to add my point on the matter. A major contention of the 'miraj' hadith is that Muhammad ascended to the heavens in order to receive instructions on the 5 daily Salats.

However, the following Quranic passages appear to infer that had Muhammad attempted to do so, he could not possibly have achieved the feat of ascending to the heavens:

6:34 --
Messengers indeed have been denied before thee, and they were patient under the denial and the persecution till Our succour reached them. There is none to alter the decisions of Allah. Already there hath reached thee (somewhat) of the tidings of the messengers (We sent before).
6:35 --
And if their aversion is grievous unto thee, then, if thou canst, seek a way down into the earth or a ladder unto the sky that thou mayst bring unto them a portent (to convince them all)! - If Allah willed, He could have brought them all together to the guidance - So be not thou among the foolish ones.

(Pickthal's translation)


I hope this adds to the argument.

asdfjk

peace all

thanks adik_awang for that ref -  6.34 also make abundantly clear that the 'negotiation' over the 50 salats is the fiction that it sound like.  "none can alter the decisions of Allah" - thats a really useful quote to keep in mind!

progMuslims trans is "there is no changing the words of God"

YusufAli runs as "there there is none that can alter the Words (and Decrees) of Allah"

taken together 6.34 & 6.35 seem like a tailor made refutation..... :)  

22:52 seem aposite here

And We did not send before you any messenger or prophet except that when he spoke, the devil also cast in his speech.  God then overrides what the devil has cast, and God firms His revelations.  And God is Knower, Wise.

salaam all

asdfjk

mh

peace all,

'the' killer argument!?

i do not know to whom this 'killer argument is actually addressed? is it to the sunni, shia and the rest fo the hadeeth buyers or to us?

for a devoted sunni, there is no killer argument whatsoever; no matter what you bring them they wont see it as they do not want to see it.

just for your info, this very argument has been in the 'game' for long time (as mentioned by sis leyla b) but the sunni are 'prepared' and 'armed' already to asnwer it. they say that it does not contradict anything as they have in their books that salat was done before the 'miraj' but the journey made them to become 5!? so the prophet according to them 'did' salat before the 'miraj' but he did not do them on regular basis as 5 dialy.

as for those who know that hadeeth are nothing but invented stories for specific purposes it is clear to them even thru the very argument of the sunni and shia; obey God and obey the messenger.  it could not have been for obeying them both seperately as this would simply constitute clear shirk.

peace
mh

mquran

Salaamun alaikum,

In my limited experience, the first thing one needs to do in the deconstruction of hadith is the questioning of Sunni axioms.

1. Sunni axiom : the Quran is the FIRST source of law. Is this true in practical terms ? No, it isn't. Rather the Quran becomes that which is 'criteria'ed rather than THE criteria.

2. Sunni axiom : The Quran contains verses which are abrogated. Ask how many are abrogated? Answer : we don't know, various imams say various things. Therefore application of the Quran becomes impossible.

3. Sunni axiom : The reason why 4 madhabib have different legal formulations is that certain hadith didn't reach them on time. Now that we live in the age of infornation, why aren't those 'havent reached' hadith accounted for yet ? Why are the 3 wrong madhabs (we dont know which 3) in existence

4. Sunni axiom : the Muslim community never agrees on an error. That's the principle of consensus, ijma. Question : what's DEFINITION of ijma  ? Answer : various imams will tell you various things. So there's no consensus on what is consensus.

These are just one of the few ways we can deconstruct Sunnism at its core. Perhaps one day, we could compile a book about these contradictions and present them to the world, insha Allah.

thanks and salaam.

ThaPhenom

I found an article written by a Sunni Muslim that details some of the history of hadith, and even provides examples of ahadith that contradict Quran, contradict each other, as well as some truly ridiculous ahadith.

http://www.mostmerciful.com/bukhari--munkar-e-hadeeth.htm

David

Salam all,

This is my first post on any forum.  :D

ThaPhenom brought up a good website. I have found the info in it to be quite good (although I'm not quite well-versed or scholarly in these subjects myself).

Another good link on this website re:hadith is a book that the web-owner has published. The link is:

http://www.mostmerciful.com/hadithbook-sectionone.htm

Peace
"Our Lord! Thou hast not created this in vain! Glory be to Thee; Give us salvation from the penalty of the Fire." 3:191

zenje

Salaam David,
Just wanted to say welcome to the board.  :D  And if you haven't yet, please visit the main site - //www.free-minds.org - for more interesting articles.
Peace.
If they turn away, then Say: "God is enough for me, there is no god but He, in Him I put my trust and He is the Lord of the great throne." [9:129]