General Issues / Questions > General Issues / Questions

Criticism of Mecca and Kaaba

<< < (56/121) > >>

abrar:
Peace and greetings,

Dear Aymen,


--- Quote ---Can you also tell us about this archeological evidence that Muslim "scholars" use to show that "al-masjid al-haram" is in Mecca?
--- End quote ---


The case presented by the muslim researchers is below.

Location Of Makkah

Makkah is at the intersection of latitude 21 to 25 degree north and longitude 39 to 49 degree east. It is set in a rugged landscape consisting mostly of solid granite, with rocks sometimes reaching 300 meters (1,000 feet) above see level.

Makkah is enclosed by the Valley of Abraham, which is surrounded by two nearby mountain ranges to the east, west and south. The northern range comprises the Al-Falaq and Qu'aqi'an mountains, while the southern range consists of Abu Hudaidah mountain to the west, Kuday to the south and Abu Qubais and Khindimah to the south-east.

There are three main entrances to Makkah: Al-Mu'allat (also known as Al-Huj?n), Al-Musfalah and Al-Shubaikah.

It is generally agreed that Al-Mu'allat includes all areas which are higher than the Haram and Al-Musfalah covers all areas that are lowers.

Ka'bah & Makkah In History

Edward Gibbon writes about the Ka'bah and its existence before the Christian era in his book:

..... of blind mythology of barbarians - of the local deities, of the stars, the air, and the earth, of their sex or titles, their attributes or subordination. Each tribe, each family, each independent warrier, created and changed the rites and the object of this fantastic worship; but the nation, in every age, has bowed to the religion as well as to the language of Mecca. The genuine antiquity of Caaba ascends beyond the Christian era: in describing the coast of the Red sea the Greek historian Diodorus has remarked, between the Thamudites and the Sabeans, a famous temple, whose superior sanctity was revered by all the Arabians; the linen of silken veil, which is annually renewed by the Turkish emperor, was first offered by the Homerites, who reigned seven hundred years before the time of Mohammad.[1]

Diodorus Siculus was a Greek historian of 1st century BC who wrote Bibliotheca Historica, a book describing various parts of the discovered world. The following lines are the English translation of Greek quoted by Gibbon from the book of Diodorus Siculus (Diodorus of Sicily) describing the 'temple' considered to be the the holiest in the whole of Arabia.

And a temple has been set-up there, which is very holy and exceedingly revered by all Arabians.[2]

It is interesting to know that Claudius Ptolemy of Alexandria, mathematician and astronomer, flourishing about a century after Pliny, undertook to make an atlas of the habitable world. He was not a descriptive geographer, and his book was intended to be no more than a commentary on his maps. He enumerated some hundred and fourteen cities or villages in Arabia Felix.

For example, Dumaetha, placed by Ptolemy just outside the northern boundary of Arabia Felix, must be the mediaeval Arabian Daumet, which is today the chief village of the great oasis of Jauf. Hejr, famous in the "times of ignorance" as the seat of a kingdom, and now Medayin Salih, is Ptolemy's Egra. His Thaim is Teima, now known for its inscriptions to have had temples and some sort of civilization as far back as 500 BC. It is the Tema of Job. In Lathrippa, placed inland from Iambia (Yambo), we recognize the Iathrippa of Stephan of Byzantium, the Yathrib of the early Arab traditions, now honoured as El Medina, the City of Cities.[3]

Apart from this a place called Macoraba is also shown which is identified as Mecca (please refer to the map facing page 17 of reference [3]). G E von Grunebaum says:

Mecca is mentioned by Ptolemy, and the name he gives it allows us to identify it as a South Arabian foundation created around a sanctuary.[4]

Makkah In The Scriptures

The Qur'?n talks about Bakkah (the older name of Makkah) being the first house of worship appointed for mankind. It also addresses this place as Umm ul-Qur? i.e., Mother of the Settlements.

Verily, the first House (of worship) appointed for mankind was that at Bakkah (Makkah), full of blessing, and a guidance for Al-'Alamin (the mankind and jinns). In it are manifest signs (for example), the Maqam (place) of Ibrahim (Abraham); whosoever enters it, he attains security. And Hajj (pilgrimage to Makkah) to the House (Ka'bah) is a duty that mankind owes to Allah, those who can afford the expenses (for one's conveyance, provision and residence); and whoever disbelieves [i.e. denies Hajj (pilgrimage to Makkah), then he is a disbeliever of Allah], then Allah stands not in need of any of the 'Alamin (mankind and jinns). [Qur'?n 3:96-97]

The Bible also mentions about the valley of Baca in connection with the pilgrimage. Below is the quote from Psalms 84 (NIV):

1 How lovely is your dwelling place, O LORD Almighty!
2 My soul yearns, even faints, for the courts of the LORD; my heart and my flesh cry out for the living God.
3 Even the sparrow has found a home, and the swallow a nest for herself, where she may have her young-- a place near your altar, O LORD Almighty, my King and my God.
4 Blessed are those who dwell in your house; they are ever praising you.
5 Blessed are those whose strength is in you, who have set their hearts on pilgrimage.
6 As they pass through the Valley of Baca, they make it a place of springs; the autumn rains also cover it with pools.
7 They go from strength to strength, till each appears before God in Zion.
8 Hear my prayer, O LORD God Almighty; listen to me, O God of Jacob.
9 Look upon our shield, O God; look with favor on your anointed one.
10 Better is one day in your courts than a thousand elsewhere; I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked.
11 For the LORD God is a sun and shield; the LORD bestows favor and honor; no good thing does he withhold from those whose walk is blameless.
12 O LORD Almighty, blessed is the man who trusts in you.

The interpretation of the valley of Baca in the The Jewish Encylopedia is quite interesting, though it does not provide a complete evidence and leaves the reader with a suggestion. Below is the full quote.

Baca, The Valley Of: A valley mentioned in Psalms LXXXIV:7. Since it is there said that pilgrims transform the valley into a land of wells, an old translators gave to Baca, the meaning of a "valley of weeping"; but it signifies rather any valley lacking water. Support for this latter view is to be found in II Samuel V:23 et seq.; I Chronicles XIV:14 et seq., in which the plural form of the same word designates a tree similar to the balsam tree; and it was supposed that a dry valley could be named after this tree. Konig takes Baca from the Arabian Baka'a, and translates it "lack of streams". The Psalmist apparently has in mind a particular valley whose natural condition led him to adopt its name.[5]

The translation of Arabian Baka'a as "lack of stream" seems to throw some light on the nature of the valley before the appearance of the stream of Zam-Zam near Ka'bah which was a dry place with no vegetation whatsoever.

The Anchor Bible Dictionary does not throw any light on it, albeit, there are some suggestions in it too like the The Jewish Encylopedia. Below is the full quote.

Baca, The Valley Of (PLACE): [Hebrew 'emeq habakka'], The valley of Baca (Psalms 84:1) is either a historical place name or a symbolical expression for "deep sorrow". The first part of Psalms 84:6 seems to mean that by "passing through the experience of deep sorrow, righteous ones can make it the source of life." The Septuagint translated the phrase into Greek as "the valley of weeping". The word 'emeq "valley" has the root meaning of "deep", so the expression may mean "deep sorrow".

However, some have considered it as the "valley of the balsam tree" from the same word in plural form found in 2 Samuel 5:24. This is based on the assumption that baka may be a "gum-exuding [weeping] tree". Another possibility is that the word beka'im (plural of baka) may mean "weeping wall-rocks" in the valley of Rephaim on whose tops David and his troops were waiting for the coming of the Philistine army passing through the valley below (2 Samuel 5:24). It seems safe to seek the meaning of baka in relation to the dripping water, since we often find this word in the names related to rivers and wadis, such as Wadi al-Baka in the Sinaitic district and Baca on the wadi in the central Galilee area, W of Meroth. It is also possible to understand beka'im as the place of "weepings" of the Philistine army for their defeat by David. After all these considerations, the expression of "valley of baka" can best be taken as a symbolic expression "weeping" or "deep sorrow" which fits well in the context of Psalms 84:6.[6]

The interpretation of the valley of Baca as a "the valley of weeping" makes sense because of the distress which Hagar(P) underwent when she was left with Ishmael(P) in the barren desert with no means of living.

The two interpretations of Baca, viz., "lack of stream" and "the valley of weeping" appears to fit in the context of pilgrimage to Bakkah, the older name of Makkah where the Ka'bah is situated. Ka'bah has been a place of reverence by all Arabians before the Christian era as we have seen earlier.

And Allah knows best!

   Islamic Awareness  History  Ka'bah As A Place Of Worship In The History





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


References

[1] Edward Gibbon (Introduction by Christopher Dawson), Gibbon's Decline And Fall Of The Roman Empire, Volume V, Everyman's Library, London, pp. 223-224.

[2] Translated by C H Oldfather, Diodorus Of Sicily, Volume II, William Heinemann Ltd., London & Harvard University Press, Cambridge, Massachusetts, MCMXXXV, p. 217.

[3] D G Hogarth, The Penetration Of Arabia, Alston Rivers Limited, London, 1905, p. 18.

[4] G E Von Grunebaum, Classical Islam: A History 600-1258, George Allen & Unwin Limited, 1970, p. 19.

[5] The Jewish Encylopedia, Volume II, Funk & Wagnalls Company, MDCCCCII, p. 415.



http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/kaaba.html


--- Quote ---Can you tell us about this archeological evidence that Israeli and Western scholars use to show that "al-masjid al-haram" is in Jerusalem?
--- End quote ---

Below is an article giving an insight into non muslim archaeological evidence.

Mecca

According to the Qur?an, Mecca was the first and most important city in the world. Adam placed the black stone in the original Ka?ba (sanctuary) there, while Abraham and Ishmael rebuilt the Meccan Ka?ba centuries later (Sura 2:125-127). Mecca was allegedly the centre of Arabian trading routes before Muhammad?s time.

Yet there is no archeological corroboration for this. Such a great ancient city would surely have received a mention in ancient history. However, the earliest reference to Mecca as a city is in the Continuato Byzantia Arabica, an 8th century document. Mecca is certainly not on the natural overland trade routes- it is a barren valley requiring a one hundred mile detour. Moreover, there was only maritime Graeco-Roman trade with India after the first century, controlled by the Ethiopian Red Sea port Adulis, not by the Arabs. If Mecca was not even a viable city, let alone a great commercial centre until after Muhammad?s time, the Qur?an is seriously in doubt.


Archaeology
 

Qibla

According to the Qur?an, the direction of prayer (Qibla) was canonized towards Mecca for all Muslims circa 624 AD, two years after the Hijra (see Sura 2:144, 149-50). Yet the earliest archaeological evidence from mosques built at the beginning of the 8th century suggests their sanctuary was located a long way north of Mecca, closer to the vicinity of Jerusalem.

The Qibla of the first mosque in Kufa, Iraq, constructed in 670 AD, pointed west instead of due south. Likewise, floor plans from two later Umayyad (650-750 AD) mosques in Iraq, demonstrate their Qiblas were oriented too far north. The Wasit mosque is off by 33 degrees, the Baghdad mosque by 30 degrees. The ?Amr b. al ?As mosque near Cairo, again pointed too far north and had to be corrected under a later governor.

Jacob of Odessa, a Christian writer and traveller, was a contemporary eye-witness writing in Egypt around 705 AD. His letter in the British Museum maintains the ?Mahgraye? (Greek term for Arabs) in Egypt prayed facing east, towards their Ka?ba, the place of their patriarchal origin- in other words towards Palestine, not Mecca.

Thus the evidence points to a sanctuary located not in Mecca, but in northern Arabia or even Jerusalem, until the early 8th century. It cannot be that the early Muslims wrongly estimated the direction of Mecca. They were desert traders and caravaners, adept at travelling by the stars. How else did they perform the obligatory Hajj, which was also canonized at this time? There is a serious discrepancy between the Qur?an and modern archaeology. Crucially, Walid I, who reigned as Caliph between 705 and 715, wrote to all the regions ordering the demolition and enlargement of all mosques. Could it be the Qibla only then shifted to Mecca?

Dome of the Rock
A possible answer as to why early mosques face towards Palestine is found in Jerusalem

In the city centre lies the ?Dome of the Rock?, an imposing structure built by ?Abd al-Malik in 691 AD. It is considered the third holiest site in Islam, after Mecca and Medina. It seems to have been intended as a sanctuary rather than a mosque, as there is no Qibla and its octagonal design indicates it was used for circumambulation. Muslims believe it commemorates the Mi?raj, the night Muhammad went up into heaven to speak to Allah and Moses regarding the number of prayers required of believers.


Yet the inscriptions on the walls of the building say nothing of the Mi?raj but are polemical qur?anic quotations, aimed primarily at Christians. Perhaps this imposing building was built instead as the early sanctuary of Islam, before the adoption of Mecca. This is logical given Muhammad?s intention to reclaim the land of his birthright.


Certainly Muslim tradition suggests the Dome of the Rock may have been the early religious centre for Islam. The caliph Suleyman, who reigned up to 717 AD, went to Mecca to ask about the Hajj. He was not satisfied with the reply, and chose instead to follow ?Abd al-Malik, travelling to the Dome of the Rock.


Could it be that the Qiblas of the early mosques were aligned to the Dome of the Rock until the edict of Walid I in the early 8th century?

http://isaalmasih.net/archaeology-isa/quran-archaeology.html

abrar:
Peace and greetings,

Archaeology and the History of Early Islam: The First Seventy Years

is an archaelogical research journal being sold for $32 at

https://www.springerlink.com/content/4frjm67v7x2ycdjd/resource-secured/?target=fulltext.pdf

I have not bought the research paper but the abstract from the Journal which is a 1.4 MB pdf file of 411-436 pages is given below:

Jeremy Johns


Abstract  The rarity of material evidence for the religion of Islam during the first seventy years of the hijra (622-92 CE) has been used to attack the traditional positivist account of the rise of Islam. However, the earliest declarations of Islam are to be found on media produced by the early Islamic state. It is therefore mistake to read too much significance into the absence of such declarations prior to the formation of that state by Abd al-Malik (685-705 CE). There is little prospect that archaeology will uncover new evidence of Islam from the first seventy years.


Archaeology and the History of Early Islam: The First Seventy Years
Journal Journal of the Economic and Social History of the Orient
Publisher Brill Academic Publishers
ISSN 0022-4995 (Print) 1568-5209 (Online)
Subject Humanities, Social Sciences and Law
Issue Volume 46, Number 4 / December, 2003
DOI 10.1163/156852003772914848
Pages 411-436
SpringerLink Date Friday, November 12, 2004

http://www.springerlink.com/content/4frjm67v7x2ycdjd/?p=9658db3b885a4911ba2941721870e9e7&pi=0

ayman:
Peace Abrar and everyone,


--- Quote from: abrar on January 03, 2007, 09:18:08 AM ---The rarity of material evidence for the religion of Islam during the first seventy years of the hijra (622-92 CE) has been used to attack the traditional positivist account of the rise of Islam.
--- End quote ---

This is false. There is no more "rarity of material evidence" during 622-92 than during the prior 70 years or the following 70 years. It is just that none of the evidence supports the traditional accounts. So there is not a rarity but a complete lack of evidence that supports the traditional accounts. So if you are trying to support the traditional accounts, indeed it will seem like there is a rarity or complete lack of evidence. On the other hand, if you are trying to get a true picture of what really happened, there is plenty of evidence.

Peace,

Ayman

ayman:
Peace Abrar and everyone,


--- Quote from: abrar on January 03, 2007, 09:00:48 AM ---The case presented by the muslim researchers is below.
Location Of Makkah
Makkah is at the intersection of latitude 21 to 25 degree north and longitude 39 to 49 degree east. It is set in a rugged landscape consisting mostly of solid granite, with rocks sometimes reaching 300 meters (1,000 feet) above see level.
Makkah is enclosed by the Valley of Abraham, which is surrounded by two nearby mountain ranges to the east, west and south. The northern range comprises the Al-Falaq and Qu'aqi'an mountains, while the southern range consists of Abu Hudaidah mountain to the west, Kuday to the south and Abu Qubais and Khindimah to the south-east.
There are three main entrances to Makkah: Al-Mu'allat (also known as Al-Huj?n), Al-Musfalah and Al-Shubaikah.
It is generally agreed that Al-Mu'allat includes all areas which are higher than the Haram and Al-Musfalah covers all areas that are lowers.
--- End quote ---

This is not evidence. Anyone can call a valley "the Valley of Abraham" in the same way that anyone can make up a saying and put "the prophet said:" in front of it. It is a fact that such valley is never mentioned in any pre-quranic inscription or manuscripts. Surely, the people of the book would have heard about this valley named after their prophet. Yet we hear nothing from the people of the book about this valley or about Mecca itself. The above is just a typical example of hanging at straws to justify idolizing some stones.


--- Quote from: abrar on January 03, 2007, 09:00:48 AM ---Ka'bah & Makkah In History
Edward Gibbon writes about the Ka'bah and its existence before the Christian era in his book:
--- End quote ---

Why is it that everyone who claims to bring archeological evidence quotes Edward Gibbon? Don't you have anything else other than Gibbon's nonsense (as I will demonstrate below)?


--- Quote from: abrar on January 03, 2007, 09:00:48 AM ---..... of blind mythology of barbarians - of the local deities, of the stars, the air, and the earth, of their sex or titles, their attributes or subordination. Each tribe, each family, each independent warrier, created and changed the rites and the object of this fantastic worship; but the nation, in every age, has bowed to the religion as well as to the language of Mecca. The genuine antiquity of Caaba ascends beyond the Christian era: in describing the coast of the Red sea the Greek historian Diodorus has remarked, between the Thamudites and the Sabeans, a famous temple, whose superior sanctity was revered by all the Arabians; the linen of silken veil, which is annually renewed by the Turkish emperor, was first offered by the Homerites, who reigned seven hundred years before the time of Mohammad.[1]
Diodorus Siculus was a Greek historian of 1st century BC who wrote Bibliotheca Historica, a book describing various parts of the discovered world. The following lines are the English translation of Greek quoted by Gibbon from the book of Diodorus Siculus (Diodorus of Sicily) describing the 'temple' considered to be the the holiest in the whole of Arabia.
And a temple has been set-up there, which is very holy and exceedingly revered by all Arabians.[2]
--- End quote ---

Diodorus Siculus lived in the 1st century BCE so perhaps Abrar can answer the following questions:
1. How did Diodorus Siculus mention in his remark the Turkish Empire, which didn't even exist until at least 1400 years later!?
2. How did Diodorus Siculus mention in his remark Mohammad who lived 700 years later!?

Perhaps Abrar thinks that Diodorus Siculus had foreknowledge of the future or perhaps he didn't read properly what he blindly copied because he was obsessed with getting any information (true or not) to justify idolizing some stones. This is why the only people who believe such falsehood are people who are equally as eager to justify their blatant idolization of some stones.

The fact is that Diodorus Siculus doesn't mention the name Mecca at all or Kaaba. He only mentions a temple in Arabia. He gives its location as somewhere between the THAMUDITES AND THE SABEANS. This would most likely be the magnificient temple at Teima that was famous all over the ancient world and is well documented in the archeological record.


--- Quote from: abrar on January 03, 2007, 09:00:48 AM ---It is interesting to know that Claudius Ptolemy of Alexandria, mathematician and astronomer, flourishing about a century after Pliny, undertook to make an atlas of the habitable world. He was not a descriptive geographer, and his book was intended to be no more than a commentary on his maps. He enumerated some hundred and fourteen cities or villages in Arabia Felix.
For example, Dumaetha, placed by Ptolemy just outside the northern boundary of Arabia Felix, must be the mediaeval Arabian Daumet, which is today the chief village of the great oasis of Jauf. Hejr, famous in the "times of ignorance" as the seat of a kingdom, and now Medayin Salih, is Ptolemy's Egra. His Thaim is Teima, now known for its inscriptions to have had temples and some sort of civilization as far back as 500 BC. It is the Tema of Job. In Lathrippa, placed inland from Iambia (Yambo), we recognize the Iathrippa of Stephan of Byzantium, the Yathrib of the early Arab traditions, now honoured as El Medina, the City of Cities.[3]
Apart from this a place called Macoraba is also shown which is identified as Mecca (please refer to the map facing page 17 of reference [3]). G E von Grunebaum says:
Mecca is mentioned by Ptolemy, and the name he gives it allows us to identify it as a South Arabian foundation created around a sanctuary.[4]
--- End quote ---

Aaah... Macoraba. The only reason why Abrar hangs on to the false straw of Macoraba is that he knows very well that there is no evidence for Mecca. It is ironic that he quotes Ptolemy's reference to Macroba when in fact linguistically and geographically, this actually further discredits the historicity of Mecca.

Linguistically, it is pathetic to see some people juggle the English spelling of those names to try to bring them closer. Of course, the English comparison is completely useless. In order to compare the names in terms of closeness, we need to examine the words as they would have been originally written in Arabic. When we do this, we see that in Arabic the Kaf, Raa, and Baa are in fact the strong consonants that form the root of Macoraba. On the other hand, the Mim and presumably a final Taa Marbuta would have been weak letters that are added to the root. So the root would be KRB and this is completely different from the root MKK from which the town name Makka is derived. So linguistically there is no basis for the names being related.

Geographically, notice how the most crucial information is eliminated in Mecca's obstinate defender apologetic thesis. He mentions Iathrippa and then Macoraba but deliberetly neglects to mention that Ptolemy identified five more towns beween Iathrippa and Macoraba (he was going from north to south):

"Iathrippa      71 40 East 23 20 North
*[...5 more names until:]*
Macoraba    73 20 East 22 North"

The reason why those defending their emotional attachment to the stone idols in Mecca don't tell us about those "5 more names" is that it exposes their falsehood. Ptolemy described Macoraba, not as the next city south of Iathrippa, but the sixth city to the south. The first of those names is the city of Carna in Southern Arabia. So while Macoraba is the sixth city to the south, the city of Carna is the first city to the south of Iathrippa. Thus, Ptolemy places Macoraba south of Carna. Present day Mecca on the other hand is North of Carna. So according to Ptolemy's work, it is impossible for Macoraba to be present day Mecca.


--- Quote from: abrar on January 03, 2007, 09:00:48 AM ---Makkah In The Scriptures
The Qur'?n talks about Bakkah (the older name of Makkah) being the first house of worship appointed for mankind. It also addresses this place as Umm ul-Qur? i.e., Mother of the Settlements.
Verily, the first House (of worship) appointed for mankind was that at Bakkah (Makkah), full of blessing, and a guidance for Al-'Alamin (the mankind and jinns). In it are manifest signs (for example), the Maqam (place) of Ibrahim (Abraham); whosoever enters it, he attains security. And Hajj (pilgrimage to Makkah) to the House (Ka'bah) is a duty that mankind owes to Allah, those who can afford the expenses (for one's conveyance, provision and residence); and whoever disbelieves [i.e. denies Hajj (pilgrimage to Makkah), then he is a disbeliever of Allah], then Allah stands not in need of any of the 'Alamin (mankind and jinns). [Qur'?n 3:96-97]
--- End quote ---

Mecca is not Becca and the god doesn't make typos.


--- Quote from: abrar on January 03, 2007, 09:00:48 AM ---The Bible also mentions about the valley of Baca in connection with the pilgrimage. Below is the quote from Psalms 84 (NIV):
...
The two interpretations of Baca, viz., "lack of stream" and "the valley of weeping" appears to fit in the context of pilgrimage to Bakkah, the older name of Makkah where the Ka'bah is situated. Ka'bah has been a place of reverence by all Arabians before the Christian era as we have seen earlier.
--- End quote ---

None of the people of the book says that Becca is Mecca and some don't even take Becca as a physical place at all but as a metaphor for deep sorrow. So this actually further discredits Mecca.


--- Quote from: abrar on January 03, 2007, 09:00:48 AM ---According to the Qur?an, Mecca was the first and most important city in the world. Adam placed the black stone in the original Ka?ba (sanctuary) there, while Abraham and Ishmael rebuilt the Meccan Ka?ba centuries later (Sura 2:125-127). Mecca was allegedly the centre of Arabian trading routes before Muhammad?s time.
--- End quote ---

These are all lies. The great reading never mentions any of this. All that this demonstrates is that those who like idolizing stones will do anything, including present lies about the god to justify their ways.


--- Quote from: abrar on January 03, 2007, 09:00:48 AM ---Yet there is no archeological corroboration for this. Such a great ancient city would surely have received a mention in ancient history. However, the earliest reference to Mecca as a city is in the Continuato Byzantia Arabica, an 8th century document. Mecca is certainly not on the natural overland trade routes- it is a barren valley requiring a one hundred mile detour. Moreover, there was only maritime Graeco-Roman trade with India after the first century, controlled by the Ethiopian Red Sea port Adulis, not by the Arabs. If Mecca was not even a viable city, let alone a great commercial centre until after Muhammad?s time, the Qur?an is seriously in doubt.
--- End quote ---

Again, those who idolize stones will put the great reading in serious doubt instead of accepting the obvious fact that it is their deliberate misinterpretation of the great reading to justify idolizing stones that is in serious doubt.


--- Quote from: abrar on January 03, 2007, 09:00:48 AM ---According to the Qur?an, the direction of prayer (Qibla) was canonized towards Mecca for all Muslims circa 624 AD, two years after the Hijra (see Sura 2:144, 149-50). Yet the earliest archaeological evidence from mosques built at the beginning of the 8th century suggests their sanctuary was located a long way north of Mecca, closer to the vicinity of Jerusalem.
The Qibla of the first mosque in Kufa, Iraq, constructed in 670 AD, pointed west instead of due south. Likewise, floor plans from two later Umayyad (650-750 AD) mosques in Iraq, demonstrate their Qiblas were oriented too far north. The Wasit mosque is off by 33 degrees, the Baghdad mosque by 30 degrees. The ?Amr b. al ?As mosque near Cairo, again pointed too far north and had to be corrected under a later governor.
Jacob of Odessa, a Christian writer and traveller, was a contemporary eye-witness writing in Egypt around 705 AD. His letter in the British Museum maintains the ?Mahgraye? (Greek term for Arabs) in Egypt prayed facing east, towards their Ka?ba, the place of their patriarchal origin- in other words towards Palestine, not Mecca.
Thus the evidence points to a sanctuary located not in Mecca, but in northern Arabia or even Jerusalem, until the early 8th century. It cannot be that the early Muslims wrongly estimated the direction of Mecca. They were desert traders and caravaners, adept at travelling by the stars. How else did they perform the obligatory Hajj, which was also canonized at this time? There is a serious discrepancy between the Qur?an and modern archaeology.
--- End quote ---

There is no discrepency between the great reading and modern archeology. The discrepency is between archeology and the interpretations of those who seek to justify idolizing stones. Again, Abrar prefers to quote material that casts doubt on the great reading instead of casting doubt on his interpretation of the great reading that is biased towards idolizing stones.

Peace,

Ayman

Jafar:

--- Quote from: Tanveer on January 02, 2007, 10:16:50 PM ---I also challenge you to bring me authentic archeological evidence of the existence of a physical building/location by the name of Masjid Al-Haram around the present so called Kaaba in Mecca, during or before the revelation of al-qur'aan.

--- End quote ---

Masjid Al-Haram = The Restricted/Forbidden Mosque

Well since Titus destruction of the "Beyth Elohym" in Jerusalem.  (70 AD)
The Jews has called the Temple Mount area in Jerusalem as "Restricted/Forbidden Place".
And they believe that only a "Jewish Mossiach" will rebuild the temple... which then the place will not be "Forbidden" anymore..

Salam

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[#] Next page

[*] Previous page

Go to full version