Author Topic: Verse 3:7 Discussion.  (Read 1083 times)

Pazuzu

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Verse 3:7 Discussion.
« on: December 16, 2006, 06:45:32 AM »
OK.. I would like you all to use everything you know about  grammar and sentence structure and try to answer the following simple question concerning verse 3:7.

Below is the verse in English, as it appears in the ProgressiveMuslims translation, without any changes.

{He is the One who sent down to you the Scripture, from which there are governing verses; they are the essence of the Scripture; and others which are similar. As for those who have disease in their hearts, they will follow what is similar from it seeking to confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know its interpretation except God and those who are well founded in knowledge, they Say: "We believe in it, all is from our Lord." And none will remember except the people of understanding.}

هو الذي أنزل عليك الكتب منه ءايت محكمت هن أم الكتب وأخر متشبهت فأما الذين في قلوبهم زيغ فيتبعون ما تشبه منه ابتغاء الفتنة وابتغاء تأويله وما يعلم تأويله إلا الله والرسخون في العلم يقولون ءامنا به كل من عند ربنا وما يذكر إلا أولوا الألبب
[/b]

If you look closely at the underlined part in the english text, you notice that it constitutes a run-on sentence. There is something very wrong with the way the verse is read.  The way I see it, there should be a full stop, (or at least a pause - such as a semi-colon) somewhere in that sentence.

Here is the question: Who is the subject in the sentence:  "We believe in it, all is from our Lord."
Who are the "WE" there??

The way I see it, there are two possibilities:

1st possibility:

There is a full stop after the word God, in which case the verse would be read as such:

{....As for those who have disease in their hearts, they will follow what is similar from it seeking to confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know its interpretation except God ( FULL STOP ) And those who are well founded in knowledge, they say: "We believe in it, all is from our Lord."...}.

In this case, the subject of the sentence is: "Those who are well founded in knowledge".

If we agree with this interpretation, then only GOD knows the true and ultimate meaning of the "mutashabih" (allegorical) verses of the Scripture, while those "who are firlmly rooted in knowledge" - although they might ponder over their meanings and formulate their theories about them- but in the end, they will concede that the allegorical verses are there to test us, and weed out the faithful from those who have a disease in their hearts, and that only GOD knows their true meanings.

2nd possibility:

That the full stop comes after the phrase "those who are fully rooted in knowledge"; in which case the verse would we read as such:

{...But none know its interpretation except God and those who are well founded in knowledge ( FULL STOP ).  They Say: "We believe in it, all is from our Lord."...}

If we are to agree with this second interpretation, then we will have accepted that both God, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge can interpret the "mutashabih" verses.

This conclusion leads us to two questions:

a- (meaningwise), who exactly are those "who are firmly rooted in knowledge"?
b- (sentence-structure-wise): Who is the subject of  the underlined "THEY"??


But if we read the verse as it is, in the ProgressiveMuslims translation, it is clearly a run-on sentece ( poor grammatical structure).

This is a serious issue which must be addressed, because it is casuing great "fitna".  Even if we read the verse in Arabic, we will note that there should be a full stop somewhere...


Appreciate your feedback..

Peace.

 


Pazuzu

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Re: Verse 3:7 Discussion.
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2006, 06:58:40 AM »
By the way, I'm in favor of #1.

Damon

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Re: Verse 3:7 Discussion.
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2006, 08:55:21 AM »
Peace Pazuzu,

I am In Favor of a FULL STOP after "None knows it's interpretation but GOD". I believe this fits within the overall message of the quran. Also, there is a personal opinion of mine that I would like to share with you concerning this verse/topic.

It is my humble belief and opinion that a person will interpret that part of the verse in accordance with their personality and disposition. It is my belief that a person who fully recognizes GOD as the ONLY ONE who is All Knowing and the One who Teaches the quran will favor a complete stop in that sentence, whereas someone who may believe that they are wise enough and knowledgable enough think that they can do enough research to not only decipher the meaning themselves, but believe that they have deciphered the correct meaning.

We should all bear in mind that this verse is speaking of BOTH types of people that I have mentioned. And we should also remember that there are passages in the quran which say that it's verses Guides the former and yet these same verses will Misguide the latter.

My humble 2 cent$..... :peace:

Salaam,
Damon.

Lobster

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Re: Verse 3:7 Discussion.
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2006, 02:25:00 PM »
peace
I will post the link later, but in a thread started by Ahmed baghat on this subject, Arnold posted Ayman's explanation on this. Ayman said that the word translated as "interpretation" actually means "original interpretation."
When we look at a painting, we can derive several interpretations, and they can all be right or wrong, but only the artist himself knows the true/original interpretation. Only the artist knows what he actually intended.
Based on that, I think 3:7 is teaching us to be humble in understanding this world.

Another thing about this verse is that if it is talking about al kitab, then it may be talking about this universe and not the quran.
`What lies before us and what lies behind us is nothing compared to what lies within us.` - Emerson

'Phoenix! You are in Hot water, maybe you should change your name to Lobster.' - Khalil

AhmedBahgat

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Re: Verse 3:7 Discussion.
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2006, 07:39:08 PM »

Lobster

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Re: Verse 3:7 Discussion.
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2006, 04:38:51 PM »
003.007
YUSUFALI: He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses
basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation
of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is
perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord,
and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden
meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge
say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and
none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.
PICKTHAL: He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture
wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and
others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt
pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause)
dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save
Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein;
the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.
SHAKIR: He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses
are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are
allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they
follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and
seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its
interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in
knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do
mind except those having understanding.
KHALIFA: He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward
verses - which constitute the essence of the scripture - as well as
multiple-meaning or allegorical verses. Those who harbor doubts in their
hearts will pursue the multiple-meaning verses to create confusion, and
to extricate a certain meaning. None knows the true meaning thereof
except GOD and those well founded in knowledge. They say, "We believe in
this - all of it comes from our Lord." Only those who possess
intelligence will take heed.

The "waw" can be used both to separate a new sentence and for addition
(similar to an English "and"). We find examples of both types of usages
in the great reading. So only looking at the "waw" doesn't tell us
enough information to decide either way. So we need to look at other
info in the passage. When we look at the rest of the passage we see that
the verb coming after "those who are firmly grounded in knowledge" is
the verb "say" in the plural ("yaquloon"). Now notice how all
translators above, except for Khalifa, correctly don't put the pronoun
"hum" (they) before "yaquloon" and they just replicate the exact Arabic
sentence as "those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say". Only
Khalifa is forced to put the pronoun "they" before "say", which is
non-existent in the Arabic original, to make the passage work. This is
for the simple reason that Khalifa knew very well that not putting the
"they" in front of "say" and adding "those well founded in knowledge" to
GOD would result in "GOD and those well founded in knowledge say:".
Since, clearly the sentence "We believe in this - all of it comes from
our Lord" cannot be uttered by The God, then he needed to change the
words and insert a pronoun that is not in the original Arabic. The other
translators didn't have to do that because they ended the sentence
before the "waw". So in this case, the evidence from the passage itself
leans heavily towards the "waw" being used as a sentence separator as
opposed to for addition.

More evidence is in the word "taawil" itself. I don't think that any of
the translators really did a good job in translating this key word. The
word comes from "awal" which means "original/first/ultimate". So it is
not just any meaning/understanding/interpretation but it is the
original/first/ultimate meaning/understanding/interpretation. Now this
type of meaning can only be known to the author of the text that is
subject to interpretation. This is true even for human authors. For
example, you can understand and interpret what an author means in a
novel but maybe you don't know that he or she based this passage on a
childhood experience or a certain likes and dislikes, etc. Essentially,
you would heve to delve into the psyche of the human author to know the
original/first/ultimate meaning/understanding/interpretation. Of course,
this is impossible.

Other passages of the great reading confirm this understanding. You see
the same word in 7:53. It is addressing those who are waiting or expect
the original/first/ultimate meaning/understanding/interpretation. The
passage says that when the actual original/first/ultimate
meaning/understanding/interpretation comes, it will be on the day of the
account and by then it will be too late.

Look around you and empirically verify the right path by comparing it to
the path of the stayers (1:6-7). You will see that the people who think
that they have the original/first/ultimate
meaning/understanding/interpretation have stopped trying to get closer
to the truth. They are misguided and not progressing. If you or I
thought that we had the original/first/ultimate
meaning/understanding/interpretation, then we wouldn't be here today. It
is only those who are firmly grounded in reality that know that what we
know is far less than what we don't know. This is true about all of The
God's signs in the universe and not just in the great reading.

I think that 3:7 and 74:31 are linked together by 2:26. Here is my
translation of those passages:

3:7. He is the one who descended on you the book. From it are judging
signs that are the origin of the book, and others that are allegorical.
So in the case of:
(1) Those in whose hearts there is blurriness, they pursue what is
allegorical from it (the book) desiring the "fitna"/trial/affliction and
desiring its (what is allegorical from the book) original
interpretation. And none knows its (what is allegorical from the book)
original interpretation except The God. And,
(2) Those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We have faith in it
(the book), both (types of signs) are from our Lord."
And none remembers other than those with intellects.

2:26. The God does not shy away from citing any kind of allegory, from a
mosquito to what is greater. As for those who have faith, they know that
it is the truth from their Lord. As for those who are unappreciative,
they say, "What did The God mean by such an allegory misleading many
thereby and guiding many thereby?" But He never misleads thereby except
the wicked.

74:31. And we didn't make the owners/companions of the Fire except
controllers; and
We didn't make their count except as a "fitna"/trial/affliction for
those who have been unappreciative;
so that
(1) those who were given the book be sure, those who had faith increase
in faith and those who were given the book and those who had faith do
not have doubt.
And, so that
(2) those in whose hearts there is sickness and the unappreciative say:
"What did The God want with this example?" Like this The God misguides
whom He wills and guides whom He wills.
And none knows your Lord's soldiers except Him.
And it is nothing except a reminder for the humans.

I hope that you can see those connections.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman
`What lies before us and what lies behind us is nothing compared to what lies within us.` - Emerson

'Phoenix! You are in Hot water, maybe you should change your name to Lobster.' - Khalil

seekingtruth1111

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Re: Verse 3:7 Discussion.
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2019, 08:49:41 PM »
This video is giving another interpretation of the verse 3:7

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pGVnehfAaI&lc=z22tflhjxxihxprb104t1aokgeafydmaclolxgag20x3bk0h00410.1571267058713427


Its translating "ma tashabha minhu" as "what is similar from it"  and rendering it as other scriptures that is similar to IT (the book/Quran)  not the mutashābihātun verses from the book.

amin

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Re: Verse 3:7 Discussion.
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2019, 10:16:42 PM »
Many things in life is unspecific, need not be strict, even practicing Salat i think comes in this, so we dont need stricter laws for these, even the Zakat, those things that vary with conditions, and i think the verse advises  people seeking interpretation with search for strict signs and laws and often misled and bring discord. People of understanding knows when and how (much of) it need to be done.

Iyyaka

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Re: Verse 3:7 Discussion.
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2019, 10:36:14 PM »
Salam,

the 2nd possibility but before to conclude a large effort must be taken to understand some concepts:

- "We believe in it" => Believe is not a correct translation
- ""mutashabih" (allegorical) " => Not allegorical

and to raise the rhetorical structure of all the passage where s3v7 is included : s3v1 to s3v25

Peace
But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke - 11:26)

seekingtruth1111

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Re: Verse 3:7 Discussion.
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2019, 05:50:05 PM »
Salam,

the 2nd possibility but before to conclude a large effort must be taken to understand some concepts:

- "We believe in it" => Believe is not a correct translation
- ""mutashabih" (allegorical) " => Not allegorical

and to raise the rhetorical structure of all the passage where s3v7 is included : s3v1 to s3v25

Peace


Peace

Also to clarify what is IT in "We believe in it" ?

Is it "what is similar(verses) from IT(the book/quran) or Just the Quran?

Also what is "All from God" ?
Is it all the verses from Quran or All the scriptures from God?