Author Topic: Is this verse applicable to todays women?  (Read 6106 times)

nobuddy

  • Beginner/Inquirer
  • *
  • Posts: 77
Re: Is this verse applicable to todays women?
« Reply #80 on: March 02, 2012, 08:42:57 PM »
Hello sister. Why do you think nisa means women in the first place?

Hello sister, actually I'm a guy :D and it's nisa who menstruate (2:222) and give birth (65:4).

From my understanding in almost all verses it's referring to women. There are only very few verses where it could potentially refer to something else, but even there I am still not sure.
An example is 3:14 which long time ago brother SeekingYou (if I remembered his name correctly) showed me.
3:14 زُيِّنَ لِلنَّاسِ حُبُّ الشَّهَوَاتِ مِنَ النِّسَاءِ وَالْبَنِينَ وَالْقَنَاطِيرِ الْمُقَنْطَرَةِ مِنَ الذَّهَبِ وَالْفِضَّةِ وَالْخَيْلِ الْمُسَوَّمَةِ وَالْأَنْعَامِ وَالْحَرْثِ ۗ ذَٰلِكَ مَتَاعُ الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا ۖ وَاللَّـهُ عِنْدَهُ حُسْنُ الْمَآبِ

Peace Bender, if someone says “people like to hoard gold” – is that statement true?

Why would النساء the women/females have to mean something else in the below verse?
There are people who like all those mentioned while others don’t care for horses, etc.

3:14 زين adornment للناس to the mankind حب love الشهوات the desires من from/of النساء the women/females والبنين and the sons والقناطير and the heaps المقنطرة the stored up من from الذهب the gold والفضة and the silver والخيل and the horses المسومة the branded والأنعام and the cattle والحرث and the tilled land – ذلكم those تاع provision الحياة the life الدنيا the world والله and The God عنده with Him حسن best المآب the final return

3:15 قل say أؤنبئكم shall I inform you بخير with better من from ذلكم those...

Salaam nobuddy

 If niss' covers "all" women, why mention them in the first place where the verse is discussing "exceptions"? If it is not about "all women", then the verse should mention who are the women that are an exception. However, I even wonder if women are concerned about other women's "zeena".
And is it an Arabic or even quraanic expression to speak about "women's women"?

Salaam Samia,

Exceptions are women/females those in the inner circle one simple exception and the expression is obviously Arabic as example below which the address is to the general public speaking to both sexes....

3:61 أبناءنا our sons وأبناءكم and your sons ونساءنا and our women ونساءكم and your women/females

Samia

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 4696
  • Gender: Female
Re: Is this verse applicable to todays women?
« Reply #81 on: March 02, 2012, 09:33:04 PM »

Salaam Samia,

Exceptions are women/females those in the inner circle one simple exception and the expression is obviously Arabic as example below which the address is to the general public speaking to both sexes....

3:61 أبناءنا our sons وأبناءكم and your sons ونساءنا and our women ونساءكم and your women/females


The whole verse:

فَمَنْ حَاجَّكَ فِيهِ مِن بَعْدِ مَا جَاءَكَ مِنَ الْعِلْمِ فَقُلْ تَعَالَوْا نَدْعُ أَبْنَاءَنَا وَأَبْنَاءَكُمْ وَنِسَاءَنَا وَنِسَاءَكُمْ وَأَنفُسَنَا وَأَنفُسَكُمْ ثُمَّ نَبْتَهِلْ فَنَجْعَل لَّعْنَتَ اللَّـهِ عَلَى الْكَاذِبِينَ

And if anyone should argue with thee about this [truth] after all the knowledge that has come unto thee, say: "Come! Let us summon our sons and your sons, and our نساء/ nisaa' and your نساء/ nisaa', and ourselves and yourselves; and then let us pray [together] humbly and ardently, and let us invoke God's curse upon those [of us] who are telling a lie."
Questions to ponder:

- Who are "we" and "you"? Are they just men or men and women?
If you say just men, does it mean that only men argue with the prophet about the truth after all the knowledge that has come unto him? And that the prophet discusses only with men but not with women? (I am OK with this if you see so...at least acknowledging that only men argue about the truth, even with the prophet  :! and they will go to hell, not women  :yay:).
If you say it is a mixed group:
- Where is "our men and your men"?
- Aren't "our women" included in us, or are they also ladies of the extended family/ tribal/ inner circle? Then who are the "women" included in "us"?

Maha

  • Truth Seeker
  • ***
  • Posts: 500
Re: Is this verse applicable to todays women?
« Reply #82 on: March 03, 2012, 12:38:08 AM »
Salaam,

From my understanding in almost all verses it's referring to women. There are only very few verses where it could potentially refer to something else, but even there I am still not sure.
An example is 3:14 which long time ago brother SeekingYou (if I remembered his name correctly) showed me.
3:14 زُيِّنَ لِلنَّاسِ حُبُّ الشَّهَوَاتِ مِنَ النِّسَاءِ وَالْبَنِينَ وَالْقَنَاطِيرِ الْمُقَنْطَرَةِ مِنَ الذَّهَبِ yوَالْفِضَّةِ وَالْخَيْلِ الْمُسَوَّمَةِ وَالْأَنْعَامِ وَالْحَرْثِ ۗ ذَٰلِكَ مَتَاعُ الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا ۖ وَاللَّـهُ عِنْدَهُ حُسْنُ الْمَآبِ

The only reason why I think that "nisaa" could have some bigger concept then "women" is when we assume that "nisaa" is the opposite of "ri-jaal", as there are some verses where "ri-jaal" could mean something else then "men".
But then, we first have to proof that "ri-jaal" doesn't mean "men" and get the correct definition for “ri-jaal”.
AND  that "nisa" and "ri-jaal" are opposites and what kind of opposite it is.

actually 4:34 gives already an important (maybe the most important) difference between them.

The definition "weak people" or "people who have been forgotton" doesn't sound logical to me, unless I am missing something.

Salaam,
Bender

Salam brother

I cannot see any reason for why nisa are 'women' except that sunnies and shiites say so.

I cannot see any reason for why rijaal are men either except that sunnies and shiites say so.
And they say it in order to fit it with their hadith.

Rijaal as 'leaders' and 'providers' in contrast to nisa as 'needy people' make more sense to me. Quran Seems to be concerned with needy people .

Peace
You fall in love with the wrong person simply because the wrong people may say the right things.

“Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.”
-- Siddharta

savage_carrot

  • Administrator
  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 5578
Re: Is this verse applicable to todays women?
« Reply #83 on: March 03, 2012, 01:26:12 AM »
Quote from: Samia
It is reciprocal, but why should it be men versus women and not bread winners versus needy?
Agreed, this is how I see it currently. Thank you for posting; lots of interesting points to ponder on.

peace
God has a plan, Gaius. He has a plan for everything and everyone.

Atreides; LeAdderNoir

huruf

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 2095
Re: Is this verse applicable to todays women?
« Reply #84 on: March 03, 2012, 03:49:54 AM »
Here, is as announced for the day before yesterday, a collection of ayas related to what we have been discussing. More typically, may be I should have said "mañana".

I have collected all those ayas where the verb faDDala
appears, and highlighted it within the sentence and transliterated the highlighted parts. It appears some times with the expression ba3D only
and many times with the expression ba3D... ba3Din.

This ba3D... ba3Din, appears in Qur'an many more times with other prepositions and other verbs and it would be worthwhile making also a gathering of them, but since there was particular concern because of the faDDala value, for the sake of thoroughness, I have proceeded with that.

Here are the ayas:


2.47
Children of Israel! call to mind the (special) favour which I bestowed upon you, and that I preferred you to all other (for My Message). faDDaltukum 3ala al3alamin

يَا بَنِي إِسْرَ‌ائِيلَ اذْكُرُ‌وا نِعْمَتِيَ الَّتِي أَنْعَمْتُ عَلَيْكُمْ وَأَنِّي فَضَّلْتُكُمْ عَلَى الْعَالَمِينَ
 

2.122
O Children of Israel! call to mind the special favour which I bestowed upon you, and that I preferred you to all others (for My Message)  faDDaltukum 3ala al3alamin

يَا بَنِي إِسْرَ‌ائِيلَ اذْكُرُ‌وا نِعْمَتِيَ الَّتِي أَنْعَمْتُ عَلَيْكُمْ وَأَنِّي فَضَّلْتُكُمْ عَلَى الْعَالَمِينَ


2.253
Those messengers We endowed with gifts, some above others: To one of them Allah spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honour); to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs), and strengthened him with the holy spirit. Tilka alrusul faDDalna ba3dahum 3ala ba3Din minhum man kallama Allahu  wa rafa3a ba3Dahum darajaat...

تِلْكَ الرُّ‌سُلُ فَضَّلْنَا بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَىٰ بَعْضٍ ۘ مِّنْهُم مَّن كَلَّمَ اللَّـهُ ۖ وَرَ‌فَعَ بَعْضَهُمْ دَرَ‌جَاتٍ ۚ وَآتَيْنَا عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْ‌يَمَ الْبَيِّنَاتِ وَأَيَّدْنَاهُ بِرُ‌وحِ الْقُدُسِ ۗ


4.32
And in no wise covet those things in which Allah Hath bestowed His gifts More freely on some of you than on others: To men is allotted what they earn, and to women what they earn: But ask Allah of His bounty. For Allah hath full knowledge of all things.  ma faDDala Allahu bihi ba3Dakum 3ala ba3Din

وَلَا تَتَمَنَّوْا مَا فَضَّلَ اللَّـهُ بِهِ بَعْضَكُمْ عَلَىٰ بَعْضٍ ۚ لِّلرِّ‌جَالِ نَصِيبٌ مِّمَّا اكْتَسَبُوا ۖ وَلِلنِّسَاءِ نَصِيبٌ مِّمَّا اكْتَسَبْنَ ۚ وَاسْأَلُوا اللَّـهَ مِن فَضْلِهِ ۗ إِنَّ اللَّـهَ كَانَ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمًا


4.34
Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. bima faDDala Allahu ba3Dahum 3ala ba3Din

الرِّ‌جَالُ قَوَّامُونَ عَلَى النِّسَاءِ بِمَا فَضَّلَ اللَّـهُ بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَىٰ بَعْضٍ وَبِمَا أَنفَقُوا مِنْ أَمْوَالِهِمْ ۚ فَالصَّالِحَاتُ قَانِتَاتٌ حَافِظَاتٌ لِّلْغَيْبِ بِمَا حَفِظَ اللَّـهُ ۚ وَاللَّاتِي تَخَافُونَ نُشُوزَهُنَّ فَعِظُوهُنَّ وَاهْجُرُ‌وهُنَّ فِي الْمَضَاجِعِ وَاضْرِ‌بُوهُنَّ ۖ فَإِنْ أَطَعْنَكُمْ فَلَا تَبْغُوا عَلَيْهِنَّ سَبِيلًا ۗ إِنَّ اللَّـهَ كَانَ عَلِيًّا كَبِيرً‌ا



4.95
Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward...  faDDala Allahu al mujahidin bi amwalihim wa anfusihim 3ala alqa3idin darajatun...wa faDDala Allahu ....

لَّا يَسْتَوِي الْقَاعِدُونَ مِنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ غَيْرُ‌ أُولِي الضَّرَ‌رِ‌ وَالْمُجَاهِدُونَ فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّـهِ بِأَمْوَالِهِمْ وَأَنفُسِهِمْ ۚ فَضَّلَ اللَّـهُ الْمُجَاهِدِينَ بِأَمْوَالِهِمْ وَأَنفُسِهِمْ عَلَى الْقَاعِدِينَ دَرَ‌جَةً ۚ وَكُلًّا وَعَدَ اللَّـهُ الْحُسْنَىٰ ۚ وَفَضَّلَ اللَّـهُ الْمُجَاهِدِينَ عَلَى الْقَاعِدِينَ أَجْرً‌ا عَظِيمًا



6.86
And Isma'il and Elisha, and Jonas, and Lot: and to all We gave favour above the nations: faDDalna 3ala al 3alamin

وَإِسْمَاعِيلَ وَالْيَسَعَ وَيُونُسَ وَلُوطًا ۚ وَكُلًّا فَضَّلْنَا عَلَى الْعَالَمِي



7.140
He said: "Shall I seek for you a god other than the (true) Allah, when it is Allah Who hath endowed you with gifts above the nations?wa huwa faDDalacum 3ala al 3alamin

قَالَ أَغَيْرَ‌ اللَّـهِ أَبْغِيكُمْ إِلَـٰهًا وَهُوَ فَضَّلَكُمْ عَلَى الْعَالَمِي


13.4
And in the earth are tracts (diverse though) neighbouring, and gardens of vines and fields sown with corn, and palm trees - growing out of single roots or otherwise: watered with the same water, yet some of them We make more excellent than others to eat. Behold, verily in these things there are signs for those who understand! we nufaDDilu ba3Daha 3ala ba3Dinn fil akli

وَفِي الْأَرْ‌ضِ قِطَعٌ مُّتَجَاوِرَ‌اتٌ وَجَنَّاتٌ مِّنْ أَعْنَابٍ وَزَرْ‌عٌ وَنَخِيلٌ صِنْوَانٌ وَغَيْرُ‌ صِنْوَانٍ يُسْقَىٰ بِمَاءٍ وَاحِدٍ وَنُفَضِّلُ بَعْضَهَا عَلَىٰ بَعْضٍ فِي الْأُكُلِ ۚ إِنَّ فِي ذَٰلِكَ لَآيَاتٍ لِّقَوْمٍ يَعْقِلُونَ


16.71
Allah has bestowed His gifts of sustenance more freely on some of you than on others: those more favoured are not going to throw back their gifts to those whom their right hands possess, so as to be equal in that respect. Will they then deny the favours of Allah? Wa Allahu faDDala ba3Dacum 3ala ba3Din firrizq mamalakaat aymanuhum

وَاللَّـهُ فَضَّلَ بَعْضَكُمْ عَلَىٰ بَعْضٍ فِي الرِّ‌زْقِ ۚ فَمَا الَّذِينَ فُضِّلُوا بِرَ‌ادِّي رِ‌زْقِهِمْ عَلَىٰ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُهُمْ فَهُمْ فِيهِ سَوَاءٌ ۚ أَفَبِنِعْمَةِ اللَّـهِ يَجْحَدُونَ


17.21
See how We have bestowed more on some than on others; but verily the Hereafter is more in rank and gradation and more in excellence. faDDalna ba3Dahum 3ala ba3Dinn

انظُرْ‌ كَيْفَ فَضَّلْنَا بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَىٰ بَعْضٍ ۚ وَلَلْآخِرَ‌ةُ أَكْبَرُ‌ دَرَ‌جَاتٍ وَأَكْبَرُ‌ تَفْضِيلًا


17.55
And it is your Lord that knoweth best all beings that are in the heavens and on earth: We did bestow on some prophets more (and other) gifts than on others: and We gave to David (the gift of) the Psalms. Wa laqad faDDalna ba3Da annibiyyina 3ala ba3Din
وَرَ‌بُّكَ أَعْلَمُ بِمَن فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْ‌ضِ ۗ وَلَقَدْ فَضَّلْنَا بَعْضَ النَّبِيِّينَ عَلَىٰ بَعْضٍ ۖ وَآتَيْنَا دَاوُودَ زَبُورً‌ا ﴿٥٥﴾ قُلِ ادْعُوا الَّذِينَ زَعَمْتُم مِّن دُونِهِ


17.70
We have honoured the sons of Adam; provided them with transport on land and sea; given them for sustenance things good and pure; and conferred on them special favours, above a great part of our creationwa faDDalnahum 3ala katheer mimman khalaqna tafDeela
وَلَقَدْ كَرَّ‌مْنَا بَنِي آدَمَ وَحَمَلْنَاهُمْ فِي الْبَرِّ‌ وَالْبَحْرِ‌ وَرَ‌زَقْنَاهُم مِّنَ الطَّيِّبَاتِ وَفَضَّلْنَاهُمْ عَلَىٰ كَثِيرٍ‌ مِّمَّنْ خَلَقْنَا تَفْضِيلًا

27.15
We gave (in the past) knowledge to David and Solomon: And they both said: "Praise be to Allah, Who has favoured us above many of his servants who believe!"alladhi faDDalna 3ala katheeri mmin 3ibaadihi al muminin.

وَلَقَدْ آتَيْنَا دَاوُودَ وَسُلَيْمَانَ عِلْمًا ۖ وَقَالَا الْحَمْدُ لِلَّـهِ الَّذِي فَضَّلَنَا عَلَىٰ كَثِيرٍ‌ مِّنْ عِبَادِهِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ


45.16
We did aforetime grant to the Children of Israel the Book the Power of Command, and Prophethood; We gave them, for Sustenance, things good and pure; and We favoured them above the nations. wa faDDalnahum 3ala al 3alamin


وَلَقَدْ آتَيْنَا بَنِي إِسْرَ‌ائِيلَ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحُكْمَ وَالنُّبُوَّةَ وَرَ‌زَقْنَاهُم مِّنَ الطَّيِّبَاتِ وَفَضَّلْنَاهُمْ عَلَى الْعَالَمِينَ




The ayas in which the clause ba3D... ba3Din does not come up
are 2.47, 2.122, 4.95, 6.86, 7.140, 17.70, 27.15 and 4.16.All of them except one talk about the prophes or the people who followed them with the import that their are distinguished above the 3alamin, or over many other creatures, but does not say ay particulsr collective or persons over which they are distinguished.

The exception is 4.95, where a group clearly defined is distinguished over a group equally clearly defined: that is the mujahiden over the qa3idin. These two groups are distinguished not by any inherent quality but by what they do or do not do. Which would also be the case with the prophets and their followers, but it is not so clearly given.

------

If we go to the ayas where the clause ba3D... ba3D appears, there are two types,

 
a)  2.253, 13.4, 17.21 17.55, 4.32, 16.71, the faDDala operates within a single group or set, one over the other. No indication is given of any particular individual or several of them. Rather in the ones dealing about the prophets (2.253, 17.55) it signals different gifts given to individual ones, no attempt and totality or detailed enumeration or attribution is made, and no names or description is given, except those few explicited, to allow anybody to distinguish between the Prophetsso as to arrive to conclude that in total summ any one in particular is less or more giftedor giving any indication in fact that there would be anybody not gifted in some aspect over others who might be gifted in some other aspects but not in the same, whereas the indication given in the explicit mention of some shows that they were gifted differenty, some with something some with something other.

17.21 makes also clear that the gifts are always related to what you do with what you have. Again no natural preference by birth or clsassification for any over anybody else, but what ech does, gives his or her preference. Which may further enlighten as to those "bima" en 4.32.

In 4.32. no mark or indication is given that anybody in particular should always be the more gifted and others would never be gifted nor that anybody would have no gifts at all, and real life shows that all people in general have something or other which others might covet, and that anybody, if giving in to coevetousness, would find something to covet in anyone.

The case in 16.71 is interesting because it would seem that within a group some would indeed be wealthier than others, and that amongst those other, there would be the MMA, which might be a hint also as to one of the traits that would qualify anybody as MMA.

What is interesting in this group is that even if we said: ok let us say that it is not mutual, that some covet and some different ones, are coveted, that some prophets are aboslutely more gifted and other absolutely less gifted, the point is we have no way to know which ones, it would always be left to anybody's particular feeling or opinion, so that the end result would be that we have no way of pointing unequivocally to anybody, except for the case of 16.71 where, apparently, the unmistakable trait would be to have enough wealth, enough at least to be able to git it to some MMA. This in itself might be an indication in itself. Faddala seems to be mentioned always in connection with spiritual values or gits. So may be what the faddala indicated here is that if you give of your gifts, then you have been really the objet of the faDDala, if not...
 
b) two groups or sets are considered.
It would be interesting to explore the whole Qur'an for the clause in any other case where faDDala is not involved to see the usage where the "preference" preconception does not cloud the vision. Here I will stick to the faddala. In this case we have only one aya, our famous

4.34.

It would be worthwhile comparing this to 4.95, where also there are two elements, the mujahidin and the qa3idin, and also is there the verb faddala, the difference is that there is not the clause ba3D... ba3Din. So there is a way to say that somebody is favoured over somebody else without resourcing to the ba3D... ba3Din clause.

However that is not what wakas said, what wakas was saying is that it is comparing not riyal to nisaa' but some of the riyal, to some of the same riyal or some also of the nisaa'. But that sounds arbitrary, what has to do with women than some men are preferred to others? If they owe something to the nisaa', surely these have something to do with it, or? And why some othe riyal owe it and some others not? Adn what has that to do with the salihaat qanitaat...?

What the Qur'an would be saying is that those who support the nisaa' are those who support the nisaa'. No quarrel with that fact, but why write this aya to state the obvious?

The fact is that the qawwamun is tied to two conditions: that they do have that with which they were gifted relatively to the nisaa', and that they put their wealth in for that. But to say that some of the riyal are qawwamun is not the same as to say that the rijal should be qawwamun, that ist, the it is something that is required of them in order to make their gifts into real spiritual values and earn the akhira. Just as the Hafidhaat lilghaib are el salihaat, qanitaat.

We have the second previous aya to this, which we have also considered in this message that says
"And in no wise covet those things in which Allah Hath bestowed His gifts More freely on some of you than on others: To men is allotted what they earn, and to women what they earn: But ask Allah of His bounty. For Allah hath full knowledge of all things."

Here in 4.34 what is hinted at in 4.32, respective gifts, is made explicit concerning riyal and nisaa'. By the way, in 4.33, there is mention of of "alladhina 3aqadat aymanukum, reminiscent of those MMA. Worthwhile pointing out that neither in 4.32 nor in 4.34 is spoken about wives and husbands, but about riyal and nisaa'.

Much has been said about wife and husband being partners and all that, but may be we are missing some conscience that in a larger scale, in total social scale women and men are partners, the basic partnership.

Salaam






























huruf

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 2095
Re: Is this verse applicable to todays women?
« Reply #85 on: March 03, 2012, 04:08:29 AM »
I have posted my last message because it took me a long time to finish and I see that a lot has been said since.

I recall to have said previously that if the aya fits a certain situacion or set of conditions, then why limit it?

It may well be that it is good if it is taken to mean men and women , and also if it is taken to mean able versus unable or material contributors versus non conributors. Because it fits some premises, it doesn't follow that it would nit fit other permises.

I particularly like the men-women, because I consider it important. It is not useless or meaningless, quite the opposite. For me it is fundamental, basic.
Which does not stand in opposition to other fruits that may had.

quote from an exchange with Savage Carrot:

Quote from: savage_carrot on February 28, 2012, 06:26:24 PM



     
Quote
In 4:34, the first part is clarifying the reciprocal nature as has been discussed.  4:34 would be a verse where based on your explanation it is clearly dealing with men and women contrasted with each other rather than the general classes of the maintainer or the dependent. Would this be correct? Or only the first part and the last part goes back to dealing with sets rather than subsets?
    Quote

        Also, to clarify, women would always fall under the class nisa but in a certain context only, insofar as it deals with childbirth etc?


    peace



I think in this first part of 4.34, the most fitting fit is men and women, but something else should also be considered be considered if it happens to fit, why not.

There is the part of the respective gifts over each other and then there is what is owed because of those respective gifts, the part of the males "bi ma anfaqw min amwalihim" and the part of the females "falsalihat qanitat hafidhat lilghaib bi ma hafadhallah".

the first mentioned class justifies their qawwama paying with their wealth,  transmutting their respective advantage into wealth that they transfer, the second mentionned class justifies being considered by God salihaat qanitaat guarding or keeping what God guarded or kept. And that is one reason also why I consider that this part of the aya refers to women in general, because if it was the nisaa' in a general sense, including orphans, or other dependents I do not see that the feminine plural for persons would be used.

This question regarding what the concordance of nisaa' would be when the nisaa' ar male or mixed people, perhaps some  brother or sister knowledgeable in Arabic might care to answer.

This "what God guarded or kept" cannot be fidelity, or trust or regards or the house while the husband is absent or many other things in general, because those should be kept regardless whether one is from the rijal or from the nisaa' (in whatever sense), and it doesn't say either that whatever should be kept should be kept for the riyal, the same as it doesn't say that the transfer of wealth is to be made to a particular woman, even if the women ar supposed to be the benficiaries. Which may be taken as indication of a general social duty for each class on that count which is due not to a specific person, but to the collective. Now what is it that only women as such can keep and not men? What is that ghaib? I think that ghaib is the human-to-be for whom the mothers should keep the identity and the relationship with their ascendancy blood relatives.
 

Quote

    Also, to clarify, women would always fall under the class nisa but in a certain context only, insofar as it deals with childbirth etc?


I think so. Women should benefit as such of the wealth of the riyal in general on that count. On another count, if they are well off or capable and in a situation or want to contribute, they would be riyal on those counts, just as women can and have been riyal in spiritual matters.



Salaam

savage_carrot

  • Administrator
  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 5578
Re: Is this verse applicable to todays women?
« Reply #86 on: March 03, 2012, 04:49:49 AM »
Quote from: huruf
I recall to have said previously that if the aya fits a certain situacion or set of conditions, then why limit it?

It may well be that it is good if it is taken to mean men and women , and also if it is taken to mean able versus unable or material contributors versus non conributors. Because it fits some premises, it doesn't follow that it would nit fit other permises.
I think the 'two ways' can be married (/pun) by a certain perception in which the classes of dependent/maintainer (or whatever suitable defining words fit these categories) include the fundamental/basic (in my opinion as well)  man-woman relationship. I think your explanations are mutually inclusive in a way :)

Lots of reading material however, will go through it. This is a great discussion by the way, reminds me of the days of yore.
God has a plan, Gaius. He has a plan for everything and everyone.

Atreides; LeAdderNoir

huruf

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 2095
Re: Is this verse applicable to todays women?
« Reply #87 on: March 03, 2012, 04:56:25 AM »
There is one question I already put regarding the salihaat, qanitaat hafidhat bilghaib, but will put it again now that sammia is back:

If by the nisaa' in 4.34 are meant men or women o the category of nisaa', that is, non¡contributors or whatever we call them, would the female plural, that salihaat, qanitaat hafidhat still aply to them even if they are not women? Is there any other instance in the qur'an where they come up and the feminine plural is used for them?


Salaam

nobuddy

  • Beginner/Inquirer
  • *
  • Posts: 77
Re: Is this verse applicable to todays women?
« Reply #88 on: March 03, 2012, 05:25:14 AM »
Salaam Samia,

Questions to ponder:

- Who are "we" and "you"? Are they just men or men and women?
If you say just men, does it mean that only men argue with the prophet about the truth after all the knowledge that has come unto him? And that the prophet discusses only with men but not with women? (I am OK with this if you see so...at least acknowledging that only men argue about the truth, even with the prophet  :! and they will go to hell, not women  :yay:).

The address is to the leadership of a group in 6th century patriarchal society in Arabic which is male dominant language even if women were in authority would not matter; still same protocol is followed.

If you say it is a mixed group:
- Where is "our men and your men"?

وأنفسنا and ourselves وأنفسكم and yourselves (i.e. those in authority, see above)

- Aren't "our women" included in us, or are they also ladies of the extended family/ tribal/ inner circle? Then who are the "women" included in "us"?

In context; this part includes all sons i.e. boys and women/females/girls other than in authority.

أبناءنا our sons وأبناءكم and your sons ونساءنا and our women/females ونساءكم and your women/females

A woman messenger or person in authority can make the same exact address, then and now…

3:61 فمن so who حاجك argues you فيه in it من from بعد after ما what جاءك comes to you من from العلم the knowledge فقل say تعالوا come ندع let أبناءنا our sons وأبناءكم and your sons ونساءنا and our women/females ونساءكم and your women/females وأنفسنا and ourselves وأنفسكم and yourselves ثم furthermore نبتهل let us pray humbly فنجعل so to make لعنت curse الله The God على on الكاذبين the liars

Wakas

  • Administrator
  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 8841
  • Gender: Male
Re: Is this verse applicable to todays women?
« Reply #89 on: March 03, 2012, 05:21:40 PM »
peace Samia, all,

I meant that nisa are not necessarily the receiver directly, i.e. it is not like person A giving money to person B. It may be, but not necessarily so, as I explained. That was my point, albeit this seems a peripheral issue.

You said:
"Setting free a mu'min is not necessarily for the sake of this person, but for the society."

Why cant it be both? I think setting such a person free will benefit that individual greatly. Note, initially you did not include the "societal" impact clause.

You then imply 4:34 is about keeping secrets. And how these breadwinners are apparently taking care of the house and children and working.

I prefer not to discuss even more of the verse and get more complicated and prefer to stick to the crux of the issue, i.e. is there a contradiciton or not.

You said:
"You mentioned that I had to use the whole statement, now let's see:

(Men are guardians over women for what God favoured some of them over others).
If God favoured some men over other men, then we cannot say "all" men are guardians over "all" women. There are some men who are not favoured. What's their position vis-a-vis guardianship? What about men who are non-believers/ but criminals/ violent? What's their favour?
If the favour is over women: again, what about women who spend? A mother who works and keeps her sick or unemployed son/ husband/ father, is she his guardian or he her guardian? These examples by the way are very, very common, and almost every woman finds herself in such a situation at least for sometime in her life."


I already answered these questions in reply 47 on this thread (i.e. my first reply to you on this thread).

The only one I have not covered explicitly, although alluded to on Quran434.com is that of a women who fulfills the criteria of "qawwamoun" - what is her situation?

Well, as we can clearly see in 4:34 the CRITERIA of being "qawwamoun" is given as:

1) God preferred/bestowed on you (and this likely refers to capacity to work - we both agree on this)
and
2) spending of their money

So, as we can see, if a woman fulfills the above two criteria, she can be regarded as "qawwamoun" (assuming the husband or males are not providing also), there could be multiple "qawwamoun" per household.

What The Quran is saying, quite ingeniously, is that it is the default duty/responsibility of the men to support/maintain due to the innate differences between men and women (i.e. pregnancy, child birth, suckling, generally physically weaker thus less job opportunities) - that is the default preference (further elaborated in 2:228, 2:233, 65:6), however note very carefully that the way it is phrased is done in such a manner as NOT to impose an absolute  rule that "men are qawaamanoun over women".
The way it is said bases it on CRITERIA. And with the usage of "SOME of THEM over OTHERS/SOME (masculine plural) - further reinforces this and compliments this idea perfectly. In fact, in hindsight, it is ingenius.

So, as we can see, with regard to our viewpoints, we have the same outcome AND the Quran itself allows for it, and there is no need whatsoever for interpreting the terms rijal/nisa as anything other than men/women for this to work.

I'd be interested to know your thoughts on this.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11.

www.studyQuran.org