Author Topic: stoning to death in quran ????  (Read 9462 times)

Recluse

  • Truth Seeker
  • ***
  • Posts: 639
  • Gender: Male
Re: stoning to death in quran ????
« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2009, 09:27:25 AM »
Salam,

Sunan Ibn Majah, Book of Nikah, Hadith # 1934

Narrated Aisha 'The verse of stoning and of suckling an adult ten times were revealed, and they were (written) on a paper and kept
under my bed. When the Messenger of Allah (SAWW.) expired and we were preoccupied with his death, a goat entered and ate away the paper."

That's what I found on yahoo answers somewhere, I'm not positive about the hadith reference but I wanted to post what I found.


Thank you Aynur. Does anyone know whether this hadith is in sunan Ibn Maja? We all know that of the six authentic hadith collections (sahih Bukhari, sahih Muslim, sunan Abu Dawood, sunan al-Tirmidhi, sunan al-Sughra and sunan Ibn Maja) only sahih Bukhari and sahih Muslim are deemed reliable. So how do they determine whether the goat hadith is 'authentic'? I saw a well-known Islamic site where a scholar or imam argued that the goat hadith is definitely reliable. Forgive my ignorance, but is this hadith really accepted by the majority of scholars?  



Meteora

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1507
Re: stoning to death in quran ????
« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2009, 09:48:58 AM »
Who gives a freaking ****, dude? (censored for the sake of mods)

ALL THESE BOOKS that have crept into the correct system are NOTHING BUT FABRICATIONS. It does not matter if Bukhari devoted his life to collecting authentic sayings of Muhammad. He had NO WAY of verifying if his information is correct. Dude, I can show you a video where it is believed in sunni Islam that Bukhari judged someone's authenticity by whether or not they had their beard shaven!!!! :whatever: :rotfl:

Think about it, this was the year 800 AD (200 years or 1/4 of that time after Muhammad's total death which by the way proves it cannot be part of an infallible religion). Just what the hell did they have to verify if the words of the hadith really came out of Muhammad's mouth? There was no way. These hadith compilers were either Christian and Jewish hadith fabricators (see video I posted above) or they put their trust in men who transmitted to them false sh**.

Ibn Majaa, Bukhari, Muslim and all the rest are being idolized since devout sunni's are trusting in them as much as they trust (or should be in this case since they are blind to the verses condeming the hadith) in God.
Quote from: Anonymous (Free Minds)
Ignorance is of course the most prized possession of any cult.
Quote from: Anonymous (Submission)
Quran alone is too much for those who had too many years of corrupted Islam.
[quote author=Edip Yuksel link=topic=16127.msg158580#msg158580 date=1198444801

Recluse

  • Truth Seeker
  • ***
  • Posts: 639
  • Gender: Male
Re: stoning to death in quran ????
« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2009, 10:10:52 AM »
That was not an answer to my question. I would like to know whether the majority of Islamic scholars believe that particular hadith to be authentic, and what their justification is. As I said earlier, we all know that only sahih Bukhari and sahih Muslim are deemed reliable by traditional scholars. They acknowledge that the other four hadith collections contain falsehood and fabrications.

dc2

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 387
  • Gender: Male
Re: stoning to death in quran ????
« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2009, 12:48:26 PM »
Yes the majority of muslims scholars believe stoning is the required punsishment  for adultery cases where the person found guilty of committing the crime is married and has consummated that marriage.

The reasons they believe this is from the hadith. Here is what they cite:

1. That the second Khalifah, Khalif Umar, stated in his life-time that certain verses prescribing stoning for adultery were recited by Prophet Muhammad himself as part of the Koran:

God sent Muhammad and sent down the scripture to him. Part of what he sent down was the passage on stoning. We read it, we were taught it, and we heeded it. The apostle stoned and we stoned after him. I fear that in time to come men will say that they find no mention of stoning in God's book and thereby go astray in neglecting an ordinance which God has sent down. Verily, stoning in the book of God is a penalty laid on married men and women who commit adultery.? (Ibn Ishaq, Sirat Rasulullah p. 684)

2. There is a strong tradition that Aisha recalled a verse that prescribed the death penalty for adulterers. It was written on a palm leaf that was in her home following Muhammad's death. Unfortunately, a goat wandered into the house and ate the leaf (along with others) before it could be collected

3. Ibn Ishaq (970) goes onto explain that the words "The adulterer must be stoned." were a part of Muhammad's farewell address to his people on the occasion of his final pilgrimage to Mecca.

4. Bukhari 83:37 relates a story narrated Abu Qilaba: "By Allah, Allah's Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and (3) a man who fought against Allah and His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate."

5. Muslim 17:4196 Relates the story of a man who testifed to the prophet that he had committed adultery four times. The prophet asked him whether he was mad. The man replied he was not. The prophet then asked him if he was married. The man repled that he was, whereapon the prophet ordered him to be taken and stoned to death.

6. Muslim 17:4206 - A woman who became pregnant confesses to Muhammad that she is guilty of adultery. Muhammad allows her to have the child, then has her stoned

7. Muslim 17:4209 relates the story of a woman who confessed to committing adulter while married and is ordered by mohammed to be stoned.

They also believe stoning is the punishment for apostasy but I have not researched which hadith they cite.




UmAlawi

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 106
Re: stoning to death in quran ????
« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2010, 10:05:06 AM »

Salaam Aleykum

This has made me do some investigation.

I read some ahadith on here: http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=stoned&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0

I saw in one hadith the stoning is mentioned as "Ar-Rajm"

And root word "ra jim mim" (RJM)

And here we can look at the verses containing words from root "ra jim mim"

http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?root=rjm

larajamnāka verb
1st person masculine plural perfect verb
(11:91:14) ... surely we would have RJM-ed ...
yarjumūkum  verb
3rd person masculine plural imperfect verb, subjunctive mood
(18:20:5) ... they will RJM you ...
tarjumūni  verb
2nd person masculine plural imperfect verb, subjunctive mood
(44:20:6) ... you RJM me. ...
la-arjumannaka  verb
1st person masculine singular imperfect verb, energetic mood
(19:46:10) ... surely, I will RJM you, ...
lanarjumannakum  verb
1st person masculine plural imperfect verb, energetic mood
(36:18:8) ... surely, we will RJM you, ...
l-marjūmīna passive participle
genitive masculine plural passive participle
(26:116:8) ... those who are RJM -ed


4 issues came to my attention:

1. Look in the Qur'an and read WHO is saying they will do the RJM and to whom, and why.
in 11:91 the people to whom Shuayb was sent, say it to him because they don't want to obey the message.
in 18:20 the people in the city will want to RJM the one in the cave OR return him to THEIR religion.
in 44:20 the messenger sent to the people of the Pharoah seeks refuge in Allah in case the people of the Pharoah want to RJM him.
in 19:46 Ibrahim's father said it to Ibrahim because he didn't agree with Ibrahim telling him not to worship the Shaytan.
in 36:18 2 messengers, strengthened by a 3rd are sent to the companions of the city and it is the people who don't want to obey the message who want to RJM the messengers
in 26:116 The people who Nuh was trying to warn didn't want to obey the message so they threatened to RJM him.

So the people who want to do the RJM in all the examples given to us in the Holy Qur'an are the ones who are the Enemies of the messenger / Rejectors of the truth.

2. If root word "ra jim mim" (RJM) means stoned or stoned to death, then look at 38:77 and 15:34 - Shaytan is told "Get out! you are RJM" and
15:17 , 81:25, 3:36, and 16:98  all mention the "shaytan RJM" usually translated as  "Shaytan the banished", "Shaytan the accursed" or "Shaytan the rejected" or "expelled".

It may be that RJM does not mean "stone" or "stone to death", rather it means expelling or banishing.  Allahu ALim

3. Allah is not ordering the RJM. The enemies of the messengers and the rejectors of Allah and the truth are the ones who want to do the RJM.

4. Nowhere in the above verses where RJM is mentioned, is it talking about Adultery.

Adultery, lewdness, fornication and immorality can be read about in the following places in the Holy Qur'an:

http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?root=zny
http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?root=fH$

Allahu Alim, May Allah increase us in knowledge and understanding, inshallah







nsws1988

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 2218
  • Gender: Female
Re: stoning to death in quran ????
« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2010, 10:37:21 AM »
So 4 years later and she's still looking for the non-existent verse?

UmAlawi

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 106
Re: stoning to death in quran ????
« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2010, 01:38:23 PM »
@nsws1988 LOL has 4 years gone by already? I'm only on my second cuppa! :D

Some of the links posted on the previous posts are no longer working.

The links I have posted go to the corpus.quran.com  - I find that's a really helpful website for studying Qur'an, alhamdulillah

Peace be upon you


Alen

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 3748
  • Gender: Male
Re: stoning to death in quran ????
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2010, 10:38:24 AM »
Peace

The only stoning I know of in the quran is the threat issued against the supporters to God.

Joe

Salaam.

True. Every time I read something about stoning, it is when non-believers are making such threats against Believer. Now, if we can compare this to today ....

May God help us all.
Peace.
39:53 Say: ?O My servants who transgressed against themselves, do not despair of God\'s mercy. For God forgives all sins. He is the Forgiver, the Merciful.?

Stone

  • Beginner/Inquirer
  • *
  • Posts: 68
  • Gender: Male
Re: stoning to death in quran ????
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2010, 06:14:31 AM »
Salaam.

True. Every time I read something about stoning, it is when non-believers are making such threats against Believer. Now, if we can compare this to today ....

May God help us all.
Peace.
What...?
There is many threats against believers...do you think that we should stoning them?

huruf

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 6448
Re: stoning to death in quran ????
« Reply #29 on: November 18, 2010, 08:57:25 AM »
If we decide to repudiate common sense we may end up promoting weird things indeed.

I won't say a word about the goat. God said that He was the guarantor of Qur'an, if a goat ate some part of Qur'an, then God sent that goat, and the Qur'an we have guaranteed by God, is the one we should have. I personally enjoy very much the goat part, it is fun to imagine her doing her stuff. At any rate, those who maintain stoning based on the goat part, must acknowledge that it is one of two things. God did gurantee the Qur'an, God didn't guarantee it. If he did and the goat did eat something, it ate according to God's will and the Qur'an we have is the Qur'an we should have, no matter what may have happened before its denifite form. Or the goat didn't eat anything except her fodder and those hadith artisans had a goat party making this up.

I personally, except for having a good laugh, do not find any use for the goad hadith. My impresion is that it was made up by one of those hypocrites the Qur'an warns so much about. But the thing is that in those early stges of islam, when Muslims were no longer the loosers, a lot of hypocrites joined the winners and continued to be the hypocrites they were, but now corrupting islam from the inside, with goats, talmudic traditions, pagan traditions, whatever. Later on, there was a whole society estblished worldwide Muslim in principle, and any sudden movement would have shaken the established order too much. So fuqaha' tried their best to get through Quranic legislation without negating any hadith. So while in principle the stoning part was in the laws, the obstacles to its application were carefully crafted so that in fact no one could ever be stoned, and in fact no one was ever stoned. Nearly as much could be said of the severing off of hands. Today Islam is being corrupted wholesale and to the root, and not retailwise like in those times, and we get this appalling idiocy of taking seriously the real possibility of stoning somebody.

That is one thing.

Another thing always on the premise that we have the Qur'an we should have and God meant us to have, which of course I believe. If it is so, then it is the peak of absurdity that we should get a sura and a good number of ayas to explain everything regarding unfaithfulness, that so many words should be spent to say that if four witnesses testify, somebody should get 100 lashes, and that on the other hand in the whole of Qur'an in order to kill somebody by stoning, not one word is said, no explanation, not one word, no mention, nothing. That is nonsense. If it is not in Qur'an then we haven't got any such injunction. It is an insult to Qur'an and its Revealer to attribute such lack of coherence to the Words of God, and to attribute to him, what he hasn't sid Himself nor guaranteed.

Stoners are nut cases, nothing else.

Salaam