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idolfree1
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« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2006, 03:39:05 PM »

Peace be upon you MZ357,

Quote
I think you can look to other words which are similer:

Shirkun =share .
Ashraka =Associate partner/sharer.
Mushrik = Who associates partner.

Hamdun =Praise.
Ahmad =Most praiseworthy.
Muhammad =The one who praises.


Thank you brother!!!  Thank you!  Thats all I was asking for, however, some are so scared to admit the truth of the GRAMMAR.

The preconcieved idea of the word "muhammadun" being a literal person has effected the proper understanding. Now this has turned into worship of an unverifyable man, rather than being a guide to a certin type of character for us all.
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idolfree1
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« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2006, 03:40:56 PM »

Peace be upon you,

Actually, I need to make a correction

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Muhammad =The one who praises.


There is no "The" in the translation, only one who is "hamd".

The implies that there is only ONE. Just like there is no "The" in the first example, there is none in the other.
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idolfree1
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« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2006, 04:25:21 PM »

Peace be upon you,

Brother MZ has given more examples in another thread which I am pasting

Sharibu = They drank.
Sharibeena /sharibuna = drinkers.
Ma-shariba = a Drink.
Ma-sharabun = Drinking place.


Sajidu =Accept
Sajideena.=Accepters.
Ma-sajida =What you accept.
Ma-sajadun=practice of your acceptance


But I question  am noticing is why not "place" of acceptance? How does it turn to "practice"?
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mz357
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« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2006, 04:34:06 PM »

Salaams idolfree,

because you drink/take in a drink in/at a place.

But you carry out an order/command at a place.


I think you do need a place to drink but not a place to accept because one is a physical thing and the other isn't.But you do need a physical place to carry it out though.

Salaams.
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Grourself
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« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2006, 01:42:19 PM »

Peace,
Here's the results of my research so far. There were some Hebrew graphics that are not showing but I don't think it matters.

Muhammadun as used in the ?Qur?aan? is not a proper noun. It is a derivative of the verb H-M-D (appreciate/acclaim/praise). The messenger of the reading (qur?aan), is referred to as muhammadun. It is important to understand the full meaning of the words generated by the Arabic root H-M-D. These words retain the essence of this definition. Mahmud, praise; ahmadu, most praised; muhammadun, the praised one.

In the ?Qur'aan?, the word muhammad-un is a *participle and functions as a common **nominative noun.

*PARTICIPLES: come in two varieties: past and present and they have three functions in sentences. They can be components of multipart verbs [a combination of auxiliary verbs and participles, for ex. ?was eating?], or they can function as adjectives or nouns. Past and present participles often function as adjectives that describe nouns. Present participles can function as nouns--the subjects, objects, and complements in sentences.

**NOMINATIVE: serving as or indicating the SUBJECT of a verb- the subject is who or what DOES the verb. In the Arabic language this grammatical singular case ending is ?un?.
Mu-hammad-un = nominative case noun: *indefinite, the subject (the doer) of the verb.

*The indefinite corresponds generally to the English noun with the indefinite article ?a? (plural ?some?) For example: a man, some men. For a noun to be definite it must be preceded by the definite article ?the? or be first in a construct. For example: kitabu-r-rajuli, the man?s book, kitabu rijali, a man?s book. The first word in this construct never takes the definite article. When the second word in this construct in indefinite, the whole phrase is indefinite, otherwise the phrase is definite. )

This is the grammatical breakdown of the word muhammadun:

The case ending ?un? is singular and in this form mu-hammad-un is:

[Note: Tanwin, ?un?, ?an?, ?in?- These case endings indicate a noun or an adjective. The distinction between nouns and adjectives is basically one of usage. That is, the function of a given word in a sentence determines whether it is a noun or an adjective. All adjectives may be used as nouns (but not necessarily vice versa]

1. Derived from the verb HaMiDa {Definition: Root-H-M-D: Hamida-he praised, Hamdun: true praise. This word not only embodies the idea of thankfulness but also has reference to the intrinsic qualities of the object of praise. Hamd is always true and used only about such acts as are volitional. It also implies admiration, magnifying and honoring of the object of praise, humility and submissiveness in the person who offers it. Hamd is a praise which is offered in appreciation of commendable action of one worthy of praise.

It also includes lauding one who has done a favor of his own volition and according to his own choice. It is not only a true praise but also an admiration. The word shukr, thanks, differs from Hamd in the sense that its application is restricted to beneficent qualities and praise. The word Madha, gratitude, differs from Hamd in the sense that it also applies to involuntary beneficence. The word hamd is much more comprehensive than shukr.

2. MU- a participle [muf?al] prefix meaning the person or thing to which the ACTION of the verb H-M-D has been APPLIED. It is attached to a derivative of a verb.
3. haMMad: Derivative of H-M-D: Form II (fa-?a?a-la doubling of the middle root consonant): meaning, carrying out an action TO someone or something else and can also give a verb the meaning of DOING something INTENSIVELY and or REPEATEDLY]

4. Muhammad-in: the genitive case ending. The genitive case is a grammatical case that indicates a relationship, primarily one of possession, between the noun in the genitive case and another noun. In English it is expressed by using the word ?of? or an apostrophe ?s?. It is used with prepositions (in, from, on, upon etc.) as in the case of [Q. 47:2] ?ala, ?upon?.

In [Q. 61:6] aHMaDu is the *elative form of H-M-D.
[*aqtal: an alif is prefixed to the verb with a sukun and there is no vowel on the first consonant. The Elative is a stage of gradation in the Semitic languages that can be used both for a global maximum (superlative/most) and for comparison (comparative).]
It means most appreciated/acclaimed/praised. Isa says "?his designation (ismahu) will be [ahmadu] most appreciated- acclaimed-praised". It functions as an adjective. It is not a proper noun or name.
The word muhammadun can be found in the reading in three places quoted above. As muhammadun [3:144 RASUL like other messengers before him, 33:40 RASULALLAH, God?s messenger & 48:29 RASULALLAH, God?s messenger] and as muhammadin, ?ALA RASUL God descends the truth upon the appreciated one [47:2]. All have the same root, H-M-D. These are not proper nouns.

You also will not find this word, muhammadun, appearing in the reading preceded by ?YAA? which is common of vocative *particles used in calling one who is near, (like O!) and who is far in place or high degree to him who is between near and distant. A few examples from the list of its extensive use are: O Musa, O Isa, O Iblis and even O jibaalu (mountains, yet inanimate objects but they are being addressed by God). There is no O Muhammad.

*[particle: a unit of speech expressing some general aspect of meaning or some connective or limiting relation and including the articles, most prepositions and conjunctions, and some interjections and adverbs]


5:41. O Messenger, let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the guided,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, "If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!" If any one's trial is intended by God, thou hast no authority in the least for him against God. For such - it is not God?s will to clean their hearts/thinking. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the hereafter a heavy punishment.

See Lanes Lexicon Vol. 2 pg. 640c ref. muhammadun: ?a man praised much, or repeatedly, or time after time: endowed with many praiseworthy qualities.?
 [Q. 6:61] See Lanes Lexicon Vol. 2 pg. 639c ref. ahmad: He (a man,) came to a state, or result, such as was praised, or commended, or approved; properly, his affair, or case, came to such a state or result: he did, or said, that for which he should be praised, or commended; or that which was praiseworthy, or commendable;?

Mahmud: according to LL means ?the station in which its occupant shall be praised by all creatures (on the day of resurrection)?Vol. 2 pg 640a [17:79]

O MESSENGER
Notice No ?O Muhammad? Why?

5:41. O Messenger, let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the guided,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, "If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!" If any one's trial is intended by God, thou hast no authority in the least for him against God. For such - it is not God?s will to clean their hearts/thinking. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the hereafter a heavy punishment.
5:67 O Messenger. proclaim the (message) which hath been sent to thee from thy Lord. If thou didst not, thou wouldst not have fulfilled and proclaimed His mission. And God will defend thee from men (who mean mischief). For God guideth not those who reject Faith.
5:99 The Messenger?s duty is but to deliver (make reach). But Allah knoweth all that ye reveal and ye conceal.
[See also O messenger 5:67, O Prophet 8:64-65, 70 & 9:73, 33:1, 28, 45, 50, 59, 60:12, 65:1, 66:1, 9, O Nuzzila 15:6, O Muzzammil 73:1. O Muddaththir 74:1]

Mahmud: according to LL means ?the station in which its occupant shall be praised by all creatures (on the day of resurrection)?Vol. 2 pg 640a [17:67]

Special Note: ?If Muhammad was the name of the prophet of Islam, why is it that the word Muhammad is not even once mentioned as the name of Islam?s Prophet in classical lexicons??

[3:188] yuhmadu

Mu-Harram-un  [2:85] & Mu-Hammad-un
Form II verbs with the prefix (mufal) mu, participle, i.e., the action of the verb is applied the person = the ?sanctioned one? & the ?praised one?
Neither are proper nouns

2:146 Those whom We gave them The Book they RECOGNIZE it, as they recognize their sons, and that a group from them hide/conceal the truth and they are knowing.
Much of the second sura addresses the Bani Israel, the people of the book. These people familiar with the message spoke Hebrew. I note below how they understand the word muhammadun in their language. Religionists have accused them of deliberately translating this word so as to take the ?name? Muhammad out of the prophesies. This word is also used in about 10 other bible verses besides Songs of Solomon 5:16 and if left un-translated it renders the verses indecipherable. It is food for thought.
Muhammad In Hebrew? Mem-chet (het)-mem-dalet-mem

[Songs Of Solomon 5:16]

 His mouth is most sweet; yea, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem.'
The 5th chapter of Songs of Solomon is discussing someone. In reading the English translation of Songs 5:16 it finishes the description by saying "He is altogether lovely". The words "altogether lovely" was translated from mahmad ( ).
The way this word is written is Hebrew is  . Let's look at the spelling of this word...
 
It has four characters. Going from right to left they are...
 
When writing in Hebrew, there is no difference between the word mahmad ( ) and muhammad ( ). The only difference is in the vowels used when pronouncing this word ( ). Hebrew is an ancient language, and there are no vowels. It is made up of 22 consonants. In ancient times, the reader decided on his own which vowels to add in. It was not until the 8th century that vowels were introduced, in the form of dots and lines. However, this has nothing to do with real Hebrew. The word mahmad ( ) in ancient times would most likely have been pronounced "mahamad".
According to Ben Yehuda's Hebrew-English Dictionary,  is correctly pronounced "mahamad" (not mahmad) which is very close to muhammad.
 

Ben Yehuda's Hebrew-English Dictionary defines " " as "LOVELY, COVETED ONE, PRECIOUS ONE, PRAISED ONE". The correct way to say "praised one" in Arabic is muhammad, so this is the same word.
Muhammad ( ) and the word mahmad ( ) are spelled exactly the same way in Hebrew, and both have the same meaning. The only reason they are pronounced different is because of vowels (dots and lines) introduced in the eighth century. The Hebrew word for praised one is:
 
Regarding the etymology of "Muhammad" as being the "Transferred Proper Noun," (as proposed by one reader), I must say that it's nothing more than a hypothesis.

The sound and surer etymology of the word "Muhammad," on the contrary, is as follows:

Root: H-M-D

Active participle of the Verbal Form I: : HamaDa.

Passive participle of the Verbal Form I: MaHm?d.

Active participle of the Verbal Form II: HammaDa

Passive participle of the Verbal Form II: MuHammaD.

But the surety of etymology in Classical Arabic ends here. Any attempt to trace the Proper Noun to such trilateral VERBAL roots is bound to remain a hypothesis.
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41:33 And who is better in speech than him who invites people to Allah, tries to grow himself in goodness, fulfills the needs of others and declares, "Surely, I am one of those who surrender unto Him?"
AhmedBahgat
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« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2006, 02:08:20 PM »

Hello

The important Question for those who spent all that time tracing a four letter arabic word they represent with many more english letters, do they believe Mohammad existed for real and was born in abouit 570 AD?

if not then they have a big problem through many verses in the Quran that they will not be be able to explain even by using their root method

also the prophet was called many times using the "Yaa" in advance, if you search for the following "Yaa Ayoha Al Nabi" you will get about 13 times he was called as such, therefore he was called using Ya more than any other prophet

Yes Mohammad means the praised one, so what?, I really can't get it, would that mean I'm bloody perfect because my name is Ahmed? so be it if that is the case but that does not mean I'm not real though

cheers
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idolfree1
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« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2006, 04:54:00 PM »

Peace be upon you Ahmed,

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The important Question for those who spent all that time tracing a four letter arabic word they represent with many more english letters, do they believe Mohammad existed for real and was born in abouit 570 AD?


Follow nothing you have no knowledge of.


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if not then they have a big problem through many verses in the Quran that they will not be be able to explain even by using their root method



Thee is not one single occuurnce of the word "muhammad" nor "ahmad" that cannot be explained.


Quote
also the prophet was called many times using the "Yaa" in advance, if you search for the following "Yaa Ayoha Al Nabi" you will get about 13 times he was called as such, therefore he was called using Ya more than any other prophet



Nabi refers to one who intuits the God's universal LAW. It is blind following of our fathers that has us CHAINED to this false association of a man from 570AD that we cant verify and the concept of "nabi", or should I say the association as the ONLY "nabi".


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Yes Mohammad means the praised one, so what?,


Not THE praised one, there is no "AL" there, only exalted one.


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I really can't get it, would that mean I'm bloody perfect because my name is Ahmed?


No, not if its your name, but if it is your DESCRIPTION by way of observation, then you might have a better chance at being perfect(Holy).
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AhmedBahgat
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« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2006, 08:43:38 PM »

Quote from: "idolfree1"
Peace be upon you Ahmed,


Quote
The important Question for those who spent all that time tracing a four letter arabic word they represent with many more english letters, do they believe Mohammad existed for real and was born in abouit 570 AD?


Quote from: "idolfree1"
Follow nothing you have no knowledge of.


Peace Kyle

mate, you can't tell me that something is already clear as light with zillions of evidences that Mohammad exixted for real, can be considered we have no knowledge of, this is so bizzare mate

I received the 3 arabic grammar books and I have the refute for you from it fair and square, because it deals with name mohammad a lot and clearly explain what names like Mohammad, Ahmad means, even gramatical wise it will refute you fair and square, I will need my time to photo copy the books and the grammar charts "coverung all the grammar" then convert it to htmal pages as well translate it for the other, I actually had a dream yesterday to to start a thread about learning arabic where I will keep posting info from these three books, a lot of work to do and yet can't figure out when I can do it


Mohammad and Ahamad are humans names as explained by the books and also their wazn is not included in something called "Asmaa Al Afaal Khamsa" which means 5 wazns to create different 5 nouns from it, this is the general rule to create nouns using only 5 wazns, you will see that the wazn of Mohammad is not one of those

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if not then they have a big problem through many verses in the Quran that they will not be be able to explain even by using their root method



Quote from: "idolfree1"
Thee is not one single occuurnce of the word "muhammad" nor "ahmad" that cannot be explained.


I donlt understand what you mean, but why donlt you explkain to us the following humans names:

1- Isa
2- Hud
3- Lut
4- Nuh
5- Ibrahim
6- Yaqoub
7- Yehya
8- Harun
9- Mosa
10- Yunis
11- Idris
12- Ilias

thanks


Quote
also the prophet was called many times using the "Yaa" in advance, if you search for the following "Yaa Ayoha Al Nabi" you will get about 13 times he was called as such, therefore he was called using Ya more than any other prophet


Quote from: "idolfree1"
Nabi refers to one who intuits the God's universal LAW. It is blind following of our fathers that has us CHAINED to this false association of a man from 570AD that we cant verify and the concept of "nabi", or should I say the association as the ONLY "nabi".


you have no proof of the above confusing statemenet, Mohammad existed for real and his grave still on earth, you just need to find a way of opening it to prove it for your self, I donlt need to prove it further for me


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Yes Mohammad means the praised one, so what?,


Quote from: "idolfree1"
Not THE praised one, there is no "AL" there, only exalted one.


thanks , now t I have 2 so whats for you?


Quote
I really can't get it, would that mean I'm bloody perfect because my name is Ahmed?


Quote from: "idolfree1"
No, not if its your name, but if it is your DESCRIPTION by way of observation, then you might have a better chance at being perfect(Holy).


I yet donlt understand where you got that unfounded opinion that Mohammad is a decription to him?,

if you think that Maqaman Mahmoodan is your evidence then SORRY THINK NOT AS MAHMOODAN IS A DESCRIPTION TO THE MAQAM  NOT TO ANY HUMAN, SEE HOW YOU GOT IT WRONG?, NOT TO METION THAT MAHMOODAN IS TOTALLY DIFFERENT WORD TO THE OTHER WORD MOHAMMAD

cheers
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idolfree1
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« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2006, 08:51:54 PM »

Peace be upon you Ahmed,

Feel free to believe the same way you have been believing. There is no compulsion. Truth is clear from falsehood.
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AhmedBahgat
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« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2006, 08:54:51 PM »

Quote from: "idolfree1"
Peace be upon you Ahmed,

Feel free to believe the same way you have been believing. There is no compulsion. Truth is clear from falsehood.


Peace Kyle

sure, likewise to with you, but what is your response to the last comment about the maqaman Mohamoodan?

cheers
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AhmedBahgat
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« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2006, 09:46:04 PM »

Peace brother Kyle


your argument that I'm following my parents is not sensible,

firstly I agree I'm following them, or I should say they raised me this way, but when i grew up I invistigated the matter and found that it makes great sense so I follow it

it will be silly of me to just reject it because it is an old fassion thingy done by my parnets

if it makes sense then it must be accpeted

now what you say that Mohammad didnlt exist, does npot make sense to me

do you think the man burried in that grave is not Mohammad?

if so, can you please provide your evidences it does not have to be Quranic though, I will acceot any compelling historical evidence you can get, I vistied that grave once and I know hundreds who visited his grave

cheers
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idolfree1
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« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2006, 04:38:03 PM »

Peace be upon you Ahmed,

I will not address any graves, there is no proof there.

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if you think that Maqaman Mahmoodan is your evidence



My evidence is that the word "muhammadun" is like any other word with the prefix "mu".  What did I say about "maqaman mahmoodan"?
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AhmedBahgat
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« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2006, 10:10:27 PM »

Quote from: "idolfree1"
Peace be upon you Ahmed,

I will not address any graves, there is no proof there.

Quote
if you think that Maqaman Mahmoodan is your evidence



My evidence is that the word "muhammadun" is like any other word with the prefix "mu".  What did I say about "maqaman mahmoodan"?


Salam

ok regarding the maqam, I thought you are using this verse as many here do to explain the word Mohammad

salam
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Someone
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« Reply #28 on: February 07, 2006, 10:33:06 PM »

Peace Ahmed, all

Just to attract your attention to the word "mahmoudan", it is a description as you said, but it is also used as a person's name as "mahmoud". Does it nullify the fact that it is a description?

--
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AhmedBahgat
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« Reply #29 on: February 07, 2006, 10:50:49 PM »

Quote from: "Someone"
Peace Ahmed, all

Just to attract your attention to the word "mahmoudan", it is a description as you said, but it is also used as a person's name as "mahmoud". Does it nullify the fact that it is a description?

--

Peace mate

Firstly there many names that come out of H M D

Ahmed

Mahmood

Mohammad

Hamdy

Hemdan

Hamad

Hamid

Hamoda

Hamida



all the above are common humans names

the context will tell us if it is a human name or a decription

for example:

Mohammad is a prophet, means Mohammad is a human name

Mohammad  is Mohamoodan, means Mohammd is praised

can you see the diference

sure enough  when we name people we choose nice meaningful names, it is impossible to name somone Shit for example

peace
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