Author Topic: is lying ever ok? (Read 1499 times)

zenje · « **Reply #20 on:** August 18, 2005, 08:02:11 PM »

God will not hold you for your unintentional oaths, but He will hold you for what oaths you have made binding; its cancellation shall be the feeding of ten poor from the average of what you feed your family, or that you clothe them, or that you free a slave; whoever cannot find shall fast for three days; this is a cancellation for making your oaths when you swear. And be careful from making oaths. It is such that God clarifies for you His revelations that you may be thankful. [5:89]

AMS377 · « **Reply #21 on:** August 18, 2005, 08:10:25 PM »

Quote from: "Jaxal"

There is no justificaltion for lieing. None in the Quran.

Wakas's example can be found in the Quran in 16:106...

Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief,- except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty.

16:106 suggests that it is permissible to renounce Islam (while secretly still remaing frim in Faith) if one is forced to. This is relevant to the Spanish Inquistion that forced Muslims to renounce Islam (or be killed), for example.

In this case, as I understand 16:106, these Muslims would be allowed to lie to the Inquistion.

Jaxal · « **Reply #22 on:** August 18, 2005, 09:39:34 PM »

SaLaM AMS377

Thats is a very good example of twisting the verse. That verse is meant for people who are forced to say they dont believe in Allah due to fear of life. That is completely different than lieing about if you are cheating on ur wife/husband. The verse zenje gave is for *oath*. Not *Lie*. There is no justification for a lie

[16.106]
Khalifa
Those who disbelieve in GOD, after having acquired faith, and become fully content with disbelief, have incurred wrath from GOD. The only ones to be excused are those who are forced to profess disbelief, while their hearts are full of faith.

Yusuf Ali
Any one who, after accepting faith in God, utters Unbelief,- except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from God, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty.

Pickthal
Whoso disbelieveth in Allah after his belief - save him who is forced thereto and whose heart is still content with the Faith - but whoso findeth ease in disbelief: On them is wrath from Allah. Theirs will be an awful doom.

Shakir
He who disbelieves in Allah after his having believed, not he who is compelled while his heart is at rest on account of faith, but he who opens (his) breast to disbelief -- on these is the wrath of Allah, and they shall have a grievous chastisement.

Sher Ali
Whoso disbelieves in Allah after he has believed - save him who is forced to make a declaration of disbelief while his heart finds peace in faith - but such as open their breast to disbelief, on them is Allah's wrath; and for them is decreed a severe punishment.

"Progressive Muslims"
Whoever rejects God after having believed; except for one who is forced while his heart is still content with belief; but the one who opens his chest to rejection, then they will have a wrath from God and they will have a great retribution.

idontknow · « **Reply #23 on:** August 18, 2005, 10:43:20 PM »

i saw that sign too "Who would Jesus bomb?"

what does it mean?[/list][/list][/quote]

AMS377 · « **Reply #24 on:** August 19, 2005, 09:36:18 AM »

Quote from: "Jaxal"

That is completely different than lieing about if you are cheating on ur wife/husband.

Salaam Jaxal,

You're right. I am not suggesting it is okay to lie in your example above. Neither is it okay to lie in general.

I am saying there exists at least one very particular circumstance that allows lying - the circumstance of 16:106.

Peace.

Jaxal · « **Reply #25 on:** August 19, 2005, 09:59:52 AM »

SaLaM AMS377

Yes brother i understand what you are saying. But im saying that in those circumstance, it simply cannot be classified as a lie becoz God would not look at it as a lie. When i say lie, i literally mean LIE. I hope you understand. 16.106 gives those people a way out who do not have the comfort of free speech, like in Pakistan or India or other thrid world countries. In my opinioin, brother, I will never look at that as a lie. Becoz God wont look at it as a lie.

Its like, if you had to kill 1 baby to save the whole world, would you do it? Yes its a disgusting example, but thats how i see that verse being. To declare you dont love your God just to live. And God is allowing that becoz God is so meciful. So beautiful. So forgiving.

Danish · « **Reply #26 on:** August 20, 2005, 10:06:26 PM »

Salaams PRIEST_BOKMEI,

Sorry for this belated reply, friend. My computer had totally crashed and had to doll-up in its pre-installed factory condition. Anyhow:

Quote from: "PRIEST_BOKMEI"

PEACE, DANISH,

Quote from: "Danish"
Peace PRIEST_BOKMEI,

Quote from: "PRIEST_BOKMEI"
Is lying permissable as a part of strategy in war?

That woud be devastating. I believe, lying can be justified under specific umbrella and within reason. What say you, my friend?

I say you are correct, good brother. The two cardinal strategies of war, are deception and surprise. Btw, is justified and permissable equivalent concepts/terms in regard to war and lying?

I understand permissible to mean something that is allowable by/within rules, standards, instructions, etc. At times, permission can be granted or denied in order to amend or preserve a rule in a given situation (case sensitive). Whereas, justified is something that is demonstrated/declared by/within reason, validation, understanding, etc., with or without a governing rule/standard. By such validation/reason, though not necessarily, a standard or rule is set, modified and/or implemented.

In my understanding, the strategies of war are never binding/permanent rules but contribute to overall game-plans and conducts of operations. Such strategies are designed and intended to meet specific goals and changeable with times/situations and are susceptible to default. Thus, I believe the strategies of war are weighed-in to justify self-defense/victory/survival rather than permissible as an outward/written mandatory rule.

Example 1: It is not permitted to intentionally kill innocent beings but is justified in a warlike situation where innocent beings become subjected.
Example 2: There?s a surplus army reserve camp close by where I live, which surrounds commercial and residential dwellings. If a bomb was permitted and aimed at the camp, it may very well have destructive/catastrophic bearings on people and property surrounding the camp, hence justified.

All-in-all, hope I conveyed my drift through. Perhaps you can feed in your thoughts, friend.

Take care and GOD bless.

PRIEST_BOKMEI · « **Reply #27 on:** August 21, 2005, 07:24:12 PM »

PEACE, DANISH,

Quote

In my understanding, the strategies of war are never binding/permanent rules but contribute to overall game-plans and conducts of operations. Such strategies are designed and intended to meet specific goals and changeable with times/situations and are susceptible to default. Thus, I believe the strategies of war are weighed-in to justify self-defense/victory/survival rather than permissible as an outward/written mandatory rule.

Example 1: It is not permitted to intentionally kill innocent beings but is justified in a warlike situation where innocent beings become subjected.
Example 2: There?s a surplus army reserve camp close by where I live, which surrounds commercial and residential dwellings. If a bomb was permitted and aimed at the camp, it may very well have destructive/catastrophic bearings on people and property surrounding the camp, hence justified.

Although I have not yet come to a complete understanding on this issue, what you've proferred seems accurate. Also, I would like your input...pro or con, on the following threads:

http://www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=52362#52362

http://www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4013

See you soon.

jonny_k · « **Reply #28 on:** August 28, 2005, 09:28:13 AM »

Salam,
I dont find any verses in the Quran which prohibit us to lie, neither would it be logical. What we cannot do is lie to the DISadvantage of others. The Quran strictly prohibits bearing false witness even if it be against his own relatives, thats why in courts we cannot lie, for this causes other peoples' rights to be violated in one way or another and leads to injustice but that doesnt mean lying in general is prohibited. Just a few examples. I failed my exams but dont wanna hurt my parents feelings so i lie to them saying that i passed while in the mean time make arrangements for other things which would ultimately override my poor situation. I lie to the robbers who want to loot my family. An examples from the Quran would be the case where Joseph in order to protect him from his brothers and keep him by himself hides a cup in his bag so that he gets accused of robbery and then he as king could order him to be his slave, thus keeping him near himself. That wasnt wrong at all. GOD Bless!

Jafar · « **Reply #29 on:** August 28, 2005, 09:55:07 AM »

Well lying and deceit is okay if it will abound to the glory of God.
But that is according to St Paul a.k.a Saul Of Tarsus.. which the Xtians believed to be writting 'lies' by inspiration from the "Holy Spirit"..

Rom 3:7
For if the truth of God by my lie [or, deceitfulness] abounded to His glory, why am I still also judged as a sinner?

Anyone can give an answer for St. Paul's question?
Lying is okay as it will bring out the 'truth of God'... :roll: