Messages

11

Pilgrimage (Hajj) / Re: Baytil Ma'muur

« on: December 17, 2010, 12:18:17 PM »

Thank you, Wakas. I appreciation when those of you who know Arabic well expound on possible meanings for the rest of us.

In chapter 52, the verses seem to imply God has gave new energy/life to His House

Then, could not this meaning be why the physical location Mamre, once cleansed of idolatry by Prophet Muhammad, was called a place revivified?

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Pilgrimage (Hajj) / Baytil Ma'muur

« on: December 16, 2010, 07:31:08 PM »

Surah 52:4 - Wal-Baytil Ma'muur

Some say that Bayt al Ma'mur is the corresponding house in the 7th heaven directly above the Kaaba.

That there was a place called Mamre in the area of Hebron where Arabs worshipped pagan idols seems interesting.

What do the members here take Baytil Ma'mur to indicate?

Bismillaahir Rahmaanir Rahiim
Wat-Tuur
Wa Kitaabim mastuur
Fii Raqqim manshuur
Wal Baytil ma'muur
Was Saqfil marfuu
Wal Bahril masjuur

13

General Issues / Questions / Re: Where Was Mohammed?

« on: December 16, 2010, 01:58:52 PM »

Uh-oh! What does that hungry little creature mean?

Hebron and Mamre are not the same site but are close to one another. The picture shown above is the The Tomb of the Patriarchs where Ibrahim is said to be buried. It is not the cultic shrine of Mamre. Are you trying to make the uncultivated valley point?

If so, the area of Mamre was used for pasturing flocks, such as sheep but to my knowledge was not a cultivated valley.

Mamre was known also as Botnah. Due to the pagan idolatrous nature of the rituals at the fair, Jews were forbidden to participate by their rabbis. Now since Muslims had Jewish converts among their community, this also gives a clue why the cultic shrine of Mamre/Botnah may have been referred to as 'the restricted house."  Just sayin'  

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Introduce Yourself / Re: Salaam Alaikum Everyone.

« on: December 16, 2010, 11:53:32 AM »

Thank you, Duke! 

15

Salat & Zakat (The Contact & Purification) / Re: In depth study on Salaat in Quran

« on: December 15, 2010, 09:19:09 PM »

Dear loxbox

I do think you have misinterpreted my intentions and maybe those of some others.
We would not be here if we did not value the Qur'an deeply.

It may just be though that the genuine uncorrupted Qur'an needs to be differentiated from additions added to the text by those with a political or power agenda. Rulers are notoriously corrupt.

It is only because I have observed the deceit within some sects and been lied to by fellow Muslims that I feel strongly about attempting to discover what is true. There was a time when i was naive and believed the traditionalists, but they are not interested in discovering what is true. They have an investment in protecting a mythologized version of events.
It is because we do value the Qur'an and take its message to heart that we seek to discover the authentic history of early Islam.

Peace to you loxbox. I did not mean to hurt or offend.

16

General Issues / Questions / Re: Kaaba at Jerusalem and not at Mecca

« on: December 15, 2010, 09:01:27 PM »

I'm three and a half years too late it seems.    Bummer!

What a loss...all those missing articles.

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General Issues / Questions / Re: Where Was Mohammed?

« on: December 15, 2010, 08:26:46 PM »

I would like to mention that the site of the pagan temple at Mamre near Hebron should be a point of interest in regard to the "Where was Muhammad" question. It may also be the qibla turned to after Jerusalem. The pilgrimage to Jerusalem was well known but to my knowledge was not associated with pagan idolatry.

The cultic shrine at Mamre was known as a site of pagan worship, annual pilgrimage and as a caravan station with a busy marketplace. It was also known as the predominant pilgrimage site of the Arabs in that region. Had Muhammad cleansed a temple of idols, it would likely have been the temple at Mamre. Ibrahim is closely affiliated with this area and the Qur'an makes it clear that Ibrahim's example and Ibrahim's religion set the foundation for Muhammad.

This also fits reports that in the early 8th century (around 705 CE) the qibla direction was near or slightly south of the 32 degree parallel. It does then seem possible that Jerusalem was the first qibla and Mamre the second.

18

Pilgrimage (Hajj) / Could the original Mecca be in the region of Jerusalem?

« on: December 15, 2010, 02:17:12 PM »

The following note in the thread about revisions to the 2nd edition of 'The Message," struck a cord with me as I have been trying to discover which locations Safa and Marwa, in the Qur'an, refer.

Ayman writes to Layth  - 

You have left important words such as "safa" and "marwah" untranslated as proper names. This means that you are accepting that they are proper names and you might as well throw away your whole Jerusalem idea since as proper names, they refer to the two hills in Mecca.

The Qur'an asserts: Behold! Safa and Marwa are among the Symbols of Allah. So if those who visit the House in the Season or at other times, should compass them round, it is no sin in them. And if any one obeyeth his own impulse to good,- be sure that Allah is He Who recogniseth and knoweth. — Qur'an 2:158

I find it interesting that the Qur'an does not connect Safa and Marwa to the story of Hagar searching for water AT ALL. Safa and Marwa appear to be locations passed on the way to pilgrimage.

I don't think the Qur'anic mention of Safa and Marwa is contrary to the "Jerusalem as Mecca" concept.
Ancient maps show no Safa and Marwa in Arabia.

But if one where traveling on pilgrimage to Jerusalem from the north, one would pass Mt. Meron which is considered a sacred mount by Christians, Jews and Druzes. The path around Meron is perfectly circular as though circumambulation of the mount has been an aspect of pilgrimage to Mt. Meron in the past. Could Marwa refer to Mt. Meron. Could Safa refer to Safed?

Could Qur'an 2:158 imply that there is no harm in circumambulating Mt. Meron with the worshippers of other faiths on your way to Jerusalem/Mamre/Hebron for pilgrimage?

It is interesting that part of the Jewish celebration of Lag B'Omer in that region is walking with Torah scrolls from Safed to Meron. That is a 19th century tradition but the connection between the two mounts may have a more ancient history.

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Salat & Zakat (The Contact & Purification) / Re: In depth study on Salaat in Quran

« on: December 15, 2010, 11:42:10 AM »

In regard to verses that may not belong originally to the Qur'an. I think the possibility must be considered. Corruption is an aspect of humanity. Ritual is a means that rulers use to control the masses. [Read "The Crowd" by Gustave LeBon]

Imagine for a minute that Prophet Muhammad's original message was lenient...think: "it is a middle way...religion is easy." But after his death, the ruling elites decided that greater ritual and codification were necessary to keep the sprawling empire from revolution. Had the surahs not yet been collected, it would have been easy for the message to be altered. This does not mean that Prophet Muhammad's genuine message is not buried within. I think it may be and therefore it is important to seek to extract it.

Thomas Jefferson felt this way about the bible and sought to find the true teachings of Jesus/Isa within. He said the true words of Jesus shine out as diamonds in a dung hill. He scanned and studied to extract the authentic out of the inauthentic corruption. The result is known as 'The Jefferson Bible," and can be purchased online for those interested.

I have wondered if this has happened to the Qur'an, as abrogation does not make sense to me. If the compassionate message is abrogated by the sword verse than why include the verses claimed abrogated in the final compilation at all.

If you were a ruler seeking to bend the Qur'an to your own agenda you would naturally insert surahs that claim the text is guarded. That would keep those suspicious of your corruption from challenging you.

And getting back to the original point in regard to Salaat, I find the similarity with Zoroastrian ritual interesting and would like to ask other members here who acknowledge that reality, where they think the influence came from. What geographic areas could account for this or do you suppose that Arab Lakhmids who became Hanifs like Muhammad may have contributed to elaborating basic supplications to conform with their former and more formal manner of prayer?

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Introduce Yourself / Re: Salaam Alaikum Everyone.

« on: December 15, 2010, 03:03:34 AM »

Why, thanks Al Fajr.