Messages

1

General Issues / Questions / is lying ever ok?

« on: August 19, 2005, 09:36:18 AM »

That is completely different than lieing about if you are cheating on ur wife/husband.

Salaam Jaxal,

You're right. I am not suggesting it is okay to lie in your example above. Neither is it okay to lie in general.

I am saying there exists at least one very particular circumstance that allows lying - the circumstance of 16:106.

Peace.

2

General Issues / Questions / is lying ever ok?

« on: August 18, 2005, 08:10:25 PM »

There is no justificaltion for lieing. None in the Quran.

Wakas's example can be found in the Quran in 16:106...

Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief,- except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty.

16:106 suggests that it is permissible to renounce Islam (while secretly still remaing frim in Faith) if one is forced to. This is relevant to the Spanish Inquistion that forced Muslims to renounce Islam (or be killed), for example.

In this case, as I understand 16:106, these Muslims would be allowed to lie to the Inquistion.

3

Discuss Latest News/Events / Israel Launches Gaza Pullout

« on: August 16, 2005, 09:19:56 PM »

A key adviser to the Israeli Government has said his country's unilateral disengagement plan is really about preventing a Palestinian state.

Dov Weisglass, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's bureau chief, told the Israeli newspaper Haaretz on Wednesday that relinquishing some occupied land while keeping the rest had effectively frozen international efforts to push through the road map peace plan.

"The significance of our disengagement plan is the freezing of the peace process. It supplies the formaldehyde necessary so there is no political process with the Palestinians," he said.

"And all this with ... a presidential blessing," he added, referring to President Bush's approval in April of Sharon's plan to quit tiny Gaza in 2005 while retaining swathes of the West Bank.

Weisglass told the daily that officials in Tel Aviv had privately written off the internationally sponsored road map peace plan and rejected frequent appeals to conduct negotiations.

"When you freeze the process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state ... effectively this whole package called a Palestinian state, with all it entails, has been removed indefinitely from our agenda," Weisglass said.

"What I effectively agreed to with the Americans [in talks leading to Bush's endorsement of disengagement] was that part of the settlements would not be dealt with at all, and the rest will not be dealt with until the Palestinians turn into Finns."

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=485491
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/554FAF3A-B267-427A-B9EC-54881BDE0A2E.htm?printguid={D01EC6CF-13A4-4760-8CF0-7AACF1F457CE

4

General Issues / Questions / "Halal" meat

« on: May 05, 2005, 09:43:13 AM »

I've been eating only 'halal' now because of this doubt

How is this different from eating regular meat? The same problem exists (i.e.,  not knowing first hand the method of the animal's death).

I really have no way of knowing, unless I go to the slaughterhouse and watch what they do to the animal before they slaughter it, which is impossible.

5

Questions/Comments on the Quran / How did you reach the certitude about the quran?

« on: April 16, 2005, 09:23:38 AM »

Thus I find it worthy of study and I am in an on-going verification process.

Very well put.

6

General Issues / Questions / Muhammad, his wives, and polygamy in the Quran

« on: April 11, 2005, 03:39:49 AM »

[33:50]
O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee; and daughters of thy paternal uncles and aunts, and daughters of thy maternal uncles and aunts, who migrated (from Makka) with thee; and any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her;- this only for thee, and not for the Believers (at large); We know what We have appointed for them as to their wives and the captives whom their right hands possess;- in order that there should be no difficulty for thee. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

7

General Issues / Questions / Conspiracy Theories

« on: April 11, 2005, 03:34:54 AM »

I heard Muslims make broad generalizations.

 :wink:

8

Discuss Latest News/Events / Saudi Morality Police See Red Over Valentine Roses

« on: February 14, 2005, 04:15:18 AM »

Hilarious article. I especially like how missing a prayer will land you in jail

Saudi Morality Police See Red Over Valentine Roses

RIYADH, Saudi Arabia (Reuters) - Saudi Arabia's morality police are on the scent of illicit red roses as part of a clampdown on would-be St Valentine's lovers in the strict Muslim kingdom.

The Committee for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice, Saudi Arabia's powerful religious vigilantes, have banned shops from selling any red flowers in the run-up to February 14.

Florists say the move is part of an annual campaign by the committee -- whose members are known as "mutawwaeen" or volunteers -- to prevent Saudis marking a festival they believe flouts their austere doctrine of "Wahhabi" Islam.

"They pass by two or three times a day to check we don't have any red flowers," said a Pakistani florist in Riyadh's smart Sulaimaniya district. "Look, no red. I've taken them all out," he said pointing to a dazzling floral collection covering every color of the rainbow except one.

Saudi Arabia's purist version of Islam recognizes only two religious occasions a year -- the Muslim feasts after the fasting month of Ramadan and the Haj pilgrimage.

Celebration of the Islamic New Year or the Prophet Mohammad's birthday, common in other Muslim countries, is frowned upon in Saudi Arabia.

Valentine's Day (news - web sites), or the "Feast of Love" in Arabic, is beyond the pale in a country where women must cover themselves from head to toe in public and be accompanied by a male guardian.

"For the last week, we've had no red in the shop," said Ahmed, a flower shop manager. "You can't even have red cards."

Despite the prohibition, demand for the banned roses has been strong and unofficial business was booming, Ahmed said.

"Wait 10 minutes," he told one customer as an assistant slipped into the shadows to collect a bouquet of crimson flowers. At 10 riyals ($2.70) each they were double the usual price. "They would put us in prison for this," he smiled.

Another customer asked if he could deliver 30 red roses to Riyadh's diplomatic quarter, a potentially tricky mission which meant crossing a tight police security cordon. "No problem," Ahmed said. "That's the regular police, not the mutawwaeen."

The government-funded mutawwaeen patrol the streets of Saudi Arabia, particularly Riyadh in the Wahhabi heartland, ensuring women are covered and five daily Muslim prayers are observed.

Shopkeepers who fail to shut down for half an hour during each prayer risk a night in jail if they are discovered.

Despite government calls for them to show greater leniency, and some recent efforts to improve their own image, the bearded volunteers are not universally popular.

"The mutawwaeen are just backward," Ahmed complained. "It's the Saudi women who want these roses anyway."

9

General Issues / Questions / Abortion

« on: January 29, 2005, 10:05:51 AM »

Peace Zenje,

I have no problem with that translation.

My arabic is close to non-existent. Is there any grammatical/linguistic reason to modify "children" with "unborn"?:?:

And you are correct:

Now, how people choose to interpret it, i.e. discourage contraception, etc... is another story altogether.

So, even if there is grammatical/linguistic evidence for saying "unborn children" (instead of just children), it still doesn't apply to contraception.

10

General Issues / Questions / Abortion

« on: January 29, 2005, 05:12:12 AM »

I can't imagine killing born children of varying ages for fear of poverty was ever a real issue

Tay, this was an actual issue in pagan Arabia. People buried  their children alive.

IMO, the PM translation, "and do not kill your unborn children for fear of poverty" does not seem correct. In fact, such an interperation of this verse is rooted in orthodox/traditional/sunni thought.

This verse is constantly cited to discourage the use of contraception. The result is massive overpopulation (the effects of which are exacerbated in 3rd world countries, which lack the infrastucture for a large population).

Quick example from Pakistan, a country feeling the pressures of overpopulation. I was being driven in a taxi,  the streets were with filled poor people and their children. I mentioned to the driver that Pakistan is severly overpopulated and he agreed. I said that perhaps they should start educating people to have less children, especially since most of these families that have high number of children are very poor.  He did not agree with this, and implicitly cited this verse (echoing the PM interepertaion). He said that people shouldn't stop having children just because they can't support them, they are god's gifts and God will take care of them.