Messages

1

What is the nature of God? / Re: The God of the Quran is a Fact

« on: December 09, 2012, 05:22:29 PM »

Salaam Ahmed
Yes, you are correct.. everyone does have a different meaning of the word "God". So why even bother using this word? Why not stick to "Allah"?
The quran claims that "Allah is THE truth"; to me this can only mean one thing absolutely, no room for interpretation here. I find that the truth is the truth. What does "truth" mean to you?

Perhaps you are correct and Allah is not reality. This is simply my understanding from the qur'an, and although to me it is clear, I may yet be wrong.

2

What is the nature of God? / Re: The God of the Quran is a Fact

« on: November 20, 2012, 09:59:10 PM »

checkmate

3

What is the nature of God? / Re: The God of the Quran is a Fact

« on: November 20, 2012, 05:00:04 PM »

All you have done is tell me that energy and gravity as well as quantum physics have to comply with 1st law of thermodynamics. Have you been able to prove this? No, you merely assert this.
Now how can I prove that you are wrong in your perception? There is no scientist who says: "you can't apply thermodynamics to particle physics."
So I have tried to show you what really happens. I have shown you sources which do not substantiate your view, but mine. I have no other way of showing you that thermodynamics don't apply here.

So, basically what you are saying is that you have no proof to back up you claims (which are pretty ridiculous). lol, I have known this from the beginning. No amount of explaining will get you out of how absurd you sound. Energy is always conserved; this is the first LAW of thermodynamics. lol, you write one thing, but then right after you finish explaining that, you go on to say the opposite… 
I let it go the last couple of times ...but get real.

if you say Allah=reality, why not use the word reality we are used to? Why invent a new word for reality, which has no universal definition?

In English, you are free to do so. Who is stopping you?

Haha, my defence??? Now you are seriously going off the rails! If coulour is an adjective, what is red or all the other colours? If I say "Car is Speed" is speed also an adjective?

Actually, I also find this hilarious as well.
Yes the word “Color” is in fact a noun; but “red”, “green”, “yellow” are not. You said, “it not correct to assign a descriptive term or adjective as a noun.”. This is hilarious because; one, “reality” is not a so-called “descriptive terms or an adjective" …and two, the stuff I am saying is so easy to understand, but it seems like you just can’t comprehend it.

If I say: the moon is made from blue cheese. Can I verify that without actually verifying the actual composition of the moon? Yes, because we can sometimes validate what something is not, before being able to discuss what is is. Have you heard of an elimination process?

No actually. I have never heard of your “elimination process”… In science we have this thing called the “scientific method”  ...ever heard of that? When you create a hypothesis, you can’t just reject it willy nilly. There are these things called “experiments” and “results”, have you ever heard of those? You might want to read this paragraph a few times to let it sink in…
Since you like links so much, here’s a link to a flow chart designed for children:
http://i49.tinypic.com/2mq6b8y.jpg
Your method is not logical and apparently below the level of elementary school children. Again, you don’t even understand your own arguments, and keep providing contradictory statements.

Are you really in a position to give me any advice? So far you have only embarrassed yourself. But look, I am not interested in personal fights. I want to know what people think.

Yea…  :/  I never realized how embarrassing it is to use the scientific method. Oh please teach me your "reject this on a whim" method   

You are trying to tell me there is a reason why you consider a god to be real and a fact. Is thermodynamics the reason? No, I don't think so. Is grammar the deciding factor? No, I don't think so.

More assumptions… Here it is in plain English again: I don’t believe in any god; Allah is literally reality.

So why don't we handle this like adults and take a structured approach and do this one step at a time? You started off by asking me "do you think you live in the Matrix lol"

Seems like you took that seriously

Now we know a bit more about each other and maybe you can give me your strongest argument why you believe god is a fact? Try to use a factual approach and first check the validity of your claims. If that's too much for you, I also understand.

Ok, sure… I can do that, but can you? Let’s take it 1 step at a time:
I don’t believe in the western notion of “gods” or “God”… in other words, no deities exist. Zues does not exist. The jewish god does not exist. There is only existence itself. So now please explain to me what your belief is in as it pertains to god.

PS:
If you still struggle with fact, reality, truth etc, here's something which might help you: http://www.atheism-analyzed.net/Atheist%20Talking%20Points%20reality%20truth%20fact.htm

This just looks like a website you made in MS-Word by summarizing my points, lol. I wouldn’t be surprised if your name is Hugo Lake (the admin of this site). If that’s true, that is really pathetic. Perhaps if this was actually a sincere gesture I would actually have thanked you.

4

General Issues / Questions / Re: Jinn, ghost, ghost hunting and the paranormal

« on: November 19, 2012, 09:24:31 PM »

Jinns.... I am still trying to learn about what they actually are.

5

Marriage & Divorce / Re: Qualities that I should look for in choosing a wife

« on: November 19, 2012, 09:21:35 PM »

Sonnie,  don't you think that you are being selfish

Yes, you are probably right. But I am on the track to marrying her, and not slowing down anytime soon. At this point, I am almost 90%+ convinced its what I want.

If you have been interacting for over 2 years, don't know how you are doing with controlling your sexual feelings and desires.

Self-control 

However, life is a continuous journey, and the potential for growth will never end... so what I'm saying is perhaps a but general and philosophical, though totally true. Life is also not always so regular. Sometimes things happen in up side down manners, and turn out to be for the very best.

Couldn't agree more

Yes, I too wonder about this girl and if she is like Sonnie herself and undecided about him.   

Ive already asked her multiple times and well, she really wants to marry me; she is 100% sure.

6

What is the nature of God? / Re: The God of the Quran is a Fact

« on: November 19, 2012, 08:39:11 PM »

I will just summarise a bit. As the title says, the laws re thermodynamics are applicable to thermodynamical systems. NOT the Universe. Energy can be converted. Quantum fluctuations do not obey thermodynamics. It's like saying: the sun follows Bernoulli's Law or Principle.



Look, you are doing several things simultaneously and half cocked. You can't bring in science when talking about religion. It will backfire.
You need to keep track of what you are defining or claiming. You defined Allah as not being a god without defining either of them. You then define a god as reality, which would be factual. This entire thread is about the claim that god is a fact.
Then you say you didn't say that. That doesn't work, does it?
You accuse me of lying, when I say that you said "god=fact". Only in the next sentence you say: "god=reality". What's the difference? NOT by listing 2 dictionary entries which might use different words, but explaining how your understanding of a god can be a reality without being a fact.
I explained that you can't attribute something to what does not exist or has not been proven to exist.
I explained that "Allah is Truth" is like saying "Car is Colour". It doesn't work, does it?
I explained that you try to assign meanings to words etymologically which maybe were common or in use centuries ago, but not today is meaningless. Defining "truth" or "reality" does not help when attempting to associate an attribute such as truth to a god, which is assigning a noun to a noun.


Examples of open questions:
Is your definition of a god a physical being?  If not, the "truth" can't really be physical.
Objective? That would make it real, factual, observable as in able to be seen, heard, touched, smelled, tasted, etcetcetc
If your definition makes god = Universe, why not call it Universe then? Why should we change a name everyone understand?
The same goes for existence. I exist and I'm not a god.
we see that your equation reality=god is not possible, so do you have another suggestion why your god should be considered a fact?
How can anyone measure or quantify a god?
What is the word "truth" doing in your statements? It is nonsensical.
"lie manifested" is a paradoxical... well so is "truth manifested"
I will stop with listing my unanswered questions...

Oh and it's Hawking, not hawkins of hawkings.
And it's the sum of energy which is cancelled out by gravity (total mass-energy=0) - nothing anywhere near thermal differentiation in a closed system. (Thanks to you I found a basic explanation of what I am trying to say: http://arachnoid.com/gravity)
I have given you x examples of what is nonsensical, like: "I want to know exactly what it is that you are rejecting". How many times should I explain that logically, you can't reject what does not exist or has not yet been proven to exist.
That's also why I have no idea what a god or - translating the English term god into Arabic - Allah, is.

The way I understand it is that you explicitly trust the veracity of the Koran, literally, and thus consider Allah to be a factual entity.
You gather a few attributes mentioned in the Koran and isolate those until they become meaningful to you.
Yes, this works, but only for you and based on faith.

Respectfully,

1. You keep producing conjecture and make arguments which you yourself don't even understand. I have explained to you multiple times why you are wrong while citing facts, but you keep ignoring the facts and reply by posting articles others have written . Then you say that what is written in those links is actually what you were saying all along.
2. I have answered all those question, go back and read what I wrote. In the meantime, you have basically ignored all of my questions and started new narratives.
3. I have made my self very clear and defined Allah as reality.
4. Your reasoning skill (just like your entire defense) is what is nonsensical; you say that "Allah is Truth is like saying Car is Colour". Color is an adjective not a noun. 
5. First you claim not to have knowledge of what God is, then you claim that you yourself are cannot be god. Why would you argue about something in which you have no knowledge? Is that something a logical person would do? But you do seem to have a notion of what god is, dont you (or rather what god is not).

First learn some English and study the differences between nouns and adjectives. Then learn the difference between "reality" and "fact". Next learn the difference between the your notion of god and my notion of God. Then please go back and read what I said... Here is a tip for you: refrain from conjecture and stick to facts while citing references.

I know you will probably not do any of these things, but these are in fact the prerequisites for this discussion.

Salaam

7

What is the nature of God? / Re: The God of the Quran is a Fact

« on: November 18, 2012, 09:54:02 PM »

No, I don't get it. Not at all.

What is the common factor between "classical mechanics" and "particle physics" or "quantum physics" or plain cosmology? Are you suggesting we take the Universe as a closed or isolated system?

TBH, I dont know, and I dont care. Why are you introducing new and irrelevant science questions? I am not hawkings. You are the one who subscribe to the zero energy universe not me. You should tell me these answers...

You need to make up your mind.
1. Conservation of energy (and ultimately conservation of mass) is the basis for the "sum of everything is 0" theory. Please read hawkins' work.
2. no he doesn't mention it by name
3. Why should I read about it when it is not mentioned???

He doesn't spell it out for you as the book is written for the lay. He is saying that mass energy - Gravity must be 0. What law is he talking about here? How is this possible without the law of conservation of energy?
So the claim of a “zero energy” universe is based on inflation theory, which states that the universe underwent a short, accelerated period of expansion shortly after the Big Bang. This produced both gravity as well as mass energy. You can not produce energy out of nothing, this would violate the first law of thermodynamics.

Are you sure you know what you are talking about?

I guess I don't... You CLAIM that the sum of everything is 0... you still haven't explained to me how can that be without the first law of thermodynamics. I ask again... how can the sum of everything be 0, without using the law of conservation of energy? quantum fluctuations obey thermodynamics

You said: "Allah" or "God" = "physical truth" = "objective reality" = "the universe" = "existence" = "the sum of every proton, electron, neutron, photon right now" and now you tell me that YOU get to define and decide what truth, reality and existence are?

When did I make such a claim? When did I decide what truth, reality, and existence are? Please show me where this happened...
Like i said before. Existence is not Allah. Allah is existence.
I regret using the English word "God" now. I can finally see abdun noor's point. See this thread if you want to learn the difference between God and Allah
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599046.0

Ah, bazinga, yes. That explains it. Did you watch a couple of episodes of TBBT and now think you understand quantum physics

Oh no, my secrets out!

What is the word "truth" doing in your statements? It is nonsensical. Truth is a value or status statement.

Truth is not an attribute but a qualitative statement. Truth is a fact. Testable. Verifiable. Demonstrable. Measurable. Falsifiable.

Truth is not just a statement as I explained in my last post. Please stop posting the same thing again and again. You keep making argument without any proof or evidence. Where is your proof?
In the manner I am using it to explain "Al-Huq ul-Mubeen" in today's language, it is "the body of real things, events, and facts".

Do any of these attribute apply to a god?

No, this does not apply to gods. Allah is not a god.

Please, don't lie or spread untrue rumours. Why do you claim I did not know "what Allah was"? How can you say such a thing?
Also, from a logical point you can't reject what has not yet been proven to exist.

You keep saying that "this and that are nonsensical", like you know what Allah is. You were never even able to quote a single statement which was nonsensical. Can you quote me just 1 statement which is nonsensical? I am only asking you for 1 statement, please choose the most nonsensical of the lot and reply back.

Again? Again a wrong assumption? By me? I don't recall having worked under a wrong assumption.

Yes, you though that i was making claims.

How is the definition you provide so different from mine?

I don't know what you are talking about. What are you talking about? Why do you keep asking random questions?

You don't answer my questions

Besides your rhetorical questions, which question have I left unanswered for you? Please post it and I will answer it.

...and try to push your point based on a word used many centuries ago in the Koran and assign it the meaning we have today. Is that legitimate?

Yes it is legitimate. When you translate an old Arabic document into modern English, you use the vernacular of today so people understand the translation.

I don't know what people who used the word "truth" when the Koran was written, but I know that today it not correct to assign a descriptive term or adjective as a noun.

"Truth" is a noun. "Reality" is a noun. "Allah" is a noun.
I keep telling you that Allah is reality. Which adjective did I assign to a noun??

Why are you asking me what a god is? 

I am just trying to find out what you believe.

How could I possibly know?

Why are you asking me this? Or is this another one of your rhetorical questions?

You are saying that a god is fact, so you should know what fact is and what is not fact.

When and where did I say "god is fact"? Why are you lying and spreading rumors about me?

I just try and find out why you believe what you believe and you go into science and etymology without any reason as far as I can make out.

Bottom line Allah is reality.
When did i go into etymology? Of which word's history and origin did I start the discussion about?
As far as science, I was trying to answer your question about thermodynamics. You seem to think that thermodynamics has nothing to do with conservation of energy.

P.S.
Life is one big Bazinga, and then you die...

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General Issues / Questions / Re: Jinn, ghost, ghost hunting and the paranormal

« on: November 18, 2012, 06:05:08 PM »

I don't think ghosts or monsters exist. There is no evidence...

9

Questions / Comments on previous Scriptures (Torah - Psalms -Injeel) / Re: A christian friend just pointed this out to me

« on: November 18, 2012, 04:42:14 PM »

6:146 And for the Jews We have forbidden all that have claws; and from the cattle and the sheep We forbade their fat except what is attached to the back, or entrails, or mixed with bone. That is a punishment for their rebellion, and We are truthful.

10

What is the nature of God? / Re: The God of the Quran is a Fact

« on: November 18, 2012, 03:46:14 PM »

Did you mean Stephen Hawking? Hawking does not comment much on the 1st law of thermodynamics you brought up. Black holes don't provide compelling evidence for any law. Are you referring to particle promotion, by any chance?
Now can you please show me any law that covers ""the sum of every proton, electron, neutron, photon right now" as is claimed by you to be a god.

Never even heard of "particle promotion" in my entire life... Tried a quick Google, didn't find anything.

Yes, I was talking about Steven Hawkings, and no he doesn't mention it by name (probably because its so trivial, anyone with introductory knowledge of classical mechanics would understand). He claims..."Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing ... Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist." -Stephen Hawking, The Grand Design

Basically what he is saying is that the universe is and always has been just a set of laws (truths). His theory says that initially (before the big bang) there was physically nothing, but since nothingness is very unstable it just exploded, so this is how and why we exist today. This inference, which basically implies that gravity (negative energy) + mass energy (positive energy) = 0, is indeed valid because it is backed by the law of conservation of energy (the first LAW of thermodynamics). It is very clear what he is saying for those that have knowledge.

Read this for more info:
http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2010/09/much-ado-about-ldquonothingrdquo-stephen-hawking-and-the-self-creating-universe

Having said that, "the sum of the universe = 0" is a mathematical statement and can only be true because of the 1st law of thermodynamics... get it?

Now can you please show me any law that covers "the sum of every proton, electron, neutron, photon right now" as is claimed by you to be a god.

There is no such law. Laws are not required for setting definitions. If Webster creates a new word... lets call it "Bazinga" instead of "Allah"... then it goes on to tell you that "Bazinga is the sum of every proton, electron, neutron, photon". Does it need a law?

Everything is nonsensical
Your claim: Allah = truth manifested = all physical things (that can be measured and quantified) How does that make any sense??? How can anyone measure or quantify a god?

Firstly, this is not a matter of claim, as I am not trying to prove anything. Secondly, to clarify, I am not talking about the western notions/perceptions of a “god” or the “God”. I'm talking about Allah as mentioned by the Quran. “Allah” is defined as “truth”… this is a fact. It was mentioned by the Quran 1400 years ago. I am just trying to explain to you what the Quran is saying (in english)... so then you can reject it properly. So far you didn’t even know what Allah was, and you have been rejecting Allah all this time.

The opposite of "truth manifested" is also "lie manifested". Can you demonstrate a manifested lie?
What is the word "truth" doing in your statements? It is nonsensical. Truth is a value or status statement. Just because I see a pencil, I can't say: the pencil is true. Not everything I see or think I see is true.
The opposite of manifested is "non-manifested" or surreal, ghostly, spiritual.
That's why I said there's nothing compelling in your claims.

"lie manifested" is a paradoxical...

Anyways... these last set of points you are making under an incorrect assumption.  You are under the assumption that I am trying to prove to you what Allah is. I am not making any claims… just trying to explain to you the closest translation of the word “Allah” in English is. Throw away any per-exisiting notions of "God" you might have. But perhaps, I am still being unclear. Here are some people who have translated the Quran into English.

Also, in regards to your attempt at incorrectly defining "Truth", here what it actually means.
Wikipedia:


Webster:


This is Ch 24, Verse 25:
--by Muhammad Asad: On that day God will pay them in full their just due, and they will come to know that God alone is the Ultimate Truth, manifest, and manifesting [the true nature of all that has ever been done].
--by M. M. Pickthall: On that day Allah will pay them their just due, and they will know that Allah, He is the Manifest Truth.
--by Shakir: On that day Allah will pay back to them in full their just reward, and they shall know that Allah is the evident Truth.
--by Yusuf Ali: On that Day Allah will pay them back (all) their just dues, and they will realise that Allah is the (very) Truth, that makes all things manifest.
--by Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar: On that Day God will pay them their account in full, what is their just due. And they will know that God, He is The Clear Truth.
--by Wahiduddin Khan: on that Day God will justly requite themand they will realize that God is the truth, that makes all things manifest.
--by T.B.Irving: On that day God will repay them with their rightful due; they will realize that God means obvious Truth.
--by Al-Muntakhab: There and then shall Allah requite them with what is commensurate with their deeds and what is owed to Him of acts and rites, wherefore they shall realize that Allah is indeed the truth personified.
--by Progressive Muslims: On that Day, God will pay them what they are owed in full, and they will know that God is the Truth Manifested.
--by Abdel Haleem: on that Day, God will pay them their just due in full- and they will realize that God is the Truth that makes everything clear.
--by Abdul Majid Daryabadi: On that Day Allah shall pay them in full their recompense, and they shall know that Allah! He is the True, the Manifest.
--by Ahmed Ali: God will pay them on that day their just due in full, and they will come to know that God is the tangible Reality.
--by Aisha Bewley: On that Day Allah will pay them in full what is due to them, and they will know that Allah is the Clear Truth.
--by Ali Ünal: On that Day God will pay them in full their just due, and they will come to know that God is the Absolute Truth (from Whom nothing is hidden and Who makes all truth manifest).
--by Ali Quli Qara'i: On that day Allah will pay them in full their due recompense, and they shall know that Allah is the Manifest Reality.
--by Amatul Rahman Omar: On that Day Allah will pay them in full their just dues and they shall know that Allah alone is the Absolute Truth, (and as well makes the Truth) manifest.
--by Hamid S. Aziz: On that day Allah will pay them their just due; and they shall know that Allah, He is the Manifest Truth.
--by Muhammad Mahmoud Ghali: Upon that Day Allah will pay them in full their true Doom, (Literally: their true Religion, i.e., their true Judgment) and they will know that Allah, Ever He, is The Supremely Evident Truth.
--by Muhammad Taqi Usmani: On that day Allah will give them their rightful recompense in full, and they will know that Allah is the Very Truth who makes all things manifest.
--by Shabbir Ahmed: On that Day Allah will pay them their just due, and they will come to know that Allah! He is the Manifest Truth.
--by Syed Vickar Ahamed: On that Day, Allah will pay them back (all) their dues in full, and they will realize that Allah is the (Very) Clearest Truth (Al-Haq-ul-Mubeen).
--by Farook Malik: On that Day, Allah will give them the full reward they deserve, then they will realize that Allah is the One Who manifests the Truth.
--by Dr. Munir Munshey: That day, Allah will grant them to the full extent their rightful compensation; and they will know that Allah is the self-evident truth!
--by Tahir-ul-Qadri Mohammad: On that Day Allah will pay them full recompense that they truly deserve (for their deeds). And they will come to know that Allah is (Himself) the Truth (and also) the Revealer (of the Truth).
--by Dr. Kamal Omar: The Day when Allah will pay them their just due, and they will know that Allah, He (Alone) is the Manifest Truth.
--by Bilal Muhammad: On that day, God will pay them back all that is due, and they will realize that God is the Truth, Who makes all things manifest.
--by Maududi: On that Day Allah will give them the full recompense they deserve, and they will realize that Allah is the very Truth, Who makes the Truth manifest.
--by Rashad Khalifa: On that day, GOD will requite them fully for their works, and they will find out that GOD is the Truth.




What you think Allah is exactly???... I want to know exactly what it is that you are rejecting.
Salaam