Messages

1201

Archeology & History / Who was Zul-Qarnain?

« on: December 06, 2003, 09:52:09 AM »

Peace Layth and Beyazid,

Since the discussion in this thread has moved away from Dhul Qarnain and is  to do with Gog and Magog can I suggest that you move these posts to a new thread entitled "Who are the Gog and Magog?".

No discussion has occurred with DoctorNo regarding this anyhow. If he wishes to contribute he may do so on the new thread.

DoctorNo seems to take a break during the weekend indicating he uses (abuses?) the internet connection of his employer or institution.

Regards

1202

Archeology & History / Who was Zul-Qarnain?

« on: December 06, 2003, 09:37:28 AM »

Peace,
"So they could not come over it, and they could not make a hole in it. " (18:97)

If they were 'humans' they would have simply 'gone around it'...But if you imagine them as lava or even water/liquid then that they could not go over it or penetrate it makes sence.  

The geography of mountain passes is quite unique. The famous Khyber pass and others are unique structures which are natural tracts for easy passage of humans. The fact that Dhul Qarnain physically came between the mountains in question ie. this pass would indicate that it had nothing to do with a river. Much labour was required to make this gate/wall; to stem off a river capable of flooding millions with ancient technology to make a dam seems rather far fetched.

Water simply follows the law of gravity and forms into rivers and streams. The path of least resistance is what both natural phenomena and humans choose to get from A to B. A pass (passage) between mountains while possible to go around may not be feasible given the natural geography. The Khyber pass gives a good example of why such passes are legendary and infamous for the passage of armies:


"The Khyber Pass is a 53-kilometer (33-miles) passage through the Hindu Kush mountain range. It connects the northern frontier of Pakistan with Afghanistan. At its narrowest point, the pass is only 3 meters wide. On the north side of the Khyber Pass rise the towering, snow-covered mountains of the Hindu Kush. The Khyber Pass is one of the most famous mountain passes in the World. It is one of the most important passes between Afghanistan and Pakistan. It is the best land route between India and Pakistan and has had a long and often violent history. Conquering armies have used the Khyber as an entry point for their invasions. It was also been a major trade route for centuries"

"He said: ?This is a mercy from my Lord. But when the promise of my Lord comes, He will make it rubble. And the promise of my Lord is truth.?  

(18:98)

The dam is still holding, but we have no idea where it is located...

I've already indicated why a dam is unlikely to be the structure Dhul Qarnain constructed. To say that it is not known where it is located but it exists is quite unusual. If technology to build a dam to control large rivers was possible surely we would have seen more such ancient dams and instead of not knowing where "it" is located we'd have a whole flood of them built over the ages (excuse the pun).

I don't think the place Dhul Qarnain came to was a river as surely it indicates in the previous verses how he came to a body of water translated as "a murky spring". Had he come to another body of water; namely a river as you suggest, surely it would have been mentioned. Remember that God does not run out of words especially when He has mentioned it in verses preceding it.

99: On that day We shall leave them to surge like waves on one another: the trumpet will be blown, and We shall collect them all together.


It depends how you read the verse. If you put a full stop after the word 'another', then it becomes the people who will be gathered for j-day...If you do not, then it sounds like Gog & Maggog are people and they are the only ones to be gathered.

I think the concept of a full stop is alien to Arabic but I understand your idea. My understanding is when it says "collect them all together" it means more than Gog and Magog being collected as the next verse talks about Unbelievers as a whole being shown Hell. So that the Gog and Magog are collected together with all the other Unbelievers. The fact that they are grouped with people is another subtle indication that it is humans being collected not physical water or lava that would represent Gog and Magog as in your eyes.

"Surging in waves" may also leave the idea of water in your eyes however the literal translation is:


18:99
Watarakna baAAdahum yawma-ithin yamooju fee baAAdin wanufikha fee alssoori fajamaAAnahum jamAAan

And We left some/part of them (on) that day (to) trouble/agitate (interlock) in some/part, and the horn/bugle/instrument was blown in, so We gathered/collected them all together


As you can see trouble/agitate is different from the derived surge in waves.

I would argue that you must provide evidence of any two volcanoes or two rivers that support your view (choose your region) and justify your thoughts. Otherwise it becomes conjecture rather than any testable/falsifiable theory. Remember the mountain sides between which the gate/wall was constructed in your analysis.. think about how you explain that in your theory of volcanoes and rivers coming to a point between mountain sides. Also when the wall is commisioned the verse mentions that it is constructed between "us and them". Is the "them" in dual Arabic form or in plural? Gog and Magog according to your theory is about two entities only. Surely you should take this into account.

I would chose the 'east' (18:90) and be looking for a place between two mountains/cliffs...A river being controlled is more feasible than a volcano and this could be an area in China where the population is dense and a flooding may kill millions...The use of 'us & them' (plural) could be a merging point between the two rivers where they become as one.

Plausibility is paramount when trying to relate the events in the Quran to real history. Unless one accepts them as merely allegorical then we have to do more than speculate. To merely suggest the east is somehow not satisfying; one may as well say it's all in SOuth America somewhere. I don't want to antagonise your idea as I can see where you are coming from but it is has no historical plausibility.

To reject hadith doesn't mean we have to reject the work of scholars done on this topic for centuries. No major scholar I know of has ever interpreted Gog & Magog as anything other than a group of humans.

This indicates a wider problem of many Quran only groups in my opinion (note that I am Quran only also). They see the rejection of hadith as a license to start afresh with a clean slate. This is tantamount to re-inventing the wheel every time and I can only say that this should not be the approach to take. It's good to discuss novel ideas and our understanding shouldn't be limited to the older findings regarding the Quran by historical scholars. While I understand that they may take their ideas based on their own biases it doesn not make their interpretations invalid. The door of Ijtihad is open but it doesn't mean we ought to throw out the entire body of research done over the centuries. We are at risk of new-ageism otherwise.

In the end, I think the theory of them being the peoples who became the Khazars and then the Ashkenazi Jews is plausible given the history of the region in question and the strong likelihood that the iron gates in the Daryal Pass point to this region for us.

Your version of Gog and Magog moreover makes the identification of Dhul Qarnain even more problematic.

Actually, I am now thinking he may be the one who accompanied Moses and who was given authority from God...That would be how the Arabs knew to ask about him because they heard of his story with Moses.

Layth

The problem with attributing "the one" who Moses accompanies as Dhul Qarnain is that they occur in the same surah at different points and as the subject of different events. Remember again that God does not run out of words and wouldn't Moses' adviser (Khidr in muslim literature) been named as Dhul Qarnain if they were one and the same? Maybe the clustering in the same surah is significant for your view however Dhul Qarnain is introduced as the subject of a question towards the end of the surah. Would not the answer then have been the earlier story of Moses coming across this stranger given in response to this question?

Muslim literature gives many roles to this mysterious figure (called Khidr) to the point of making him an immortal being travelling the Earth. Everyone must make up their own mind but I think these legends from the muslim literature should not be allowed to pollute our understanding of the Quran's verses.



Finally there is the other mention of Gog and Magog in the Quran. Verse 21:96. I include below 21:95-96

Quran 21:95
Waharamun AAala qaryatin ahlaknaha annahum la yarjiAAoona

But there is a ban on any population which We have destroyed: that they shall not return,

Literal: And forbidden on a village/urban city We made it die/destroyed it , that they do not return.

Quran 21:96
Hatta itha futihat ya/jooju wama/jooju wahum min kulli hadabin yansiloona

Until when Gog and Magog are let loose and they shall break forth from every elevated place.

Literal: Until when Yagog and Magog was opened , and they are for every/each hard/elevated ground, they rush down/separate.


The verse preceding 21:96 mentions populations and is then followed immediately after by the mention of Gog and Magog. So this is indicating that there would be a spreading of a population called Gog and Magog; in my opinion it's the news about who they are being let loose that is important. A destroyed community that returns. The Khazar empire was destroyed and it's with the discovery that the Ashkenazi Jews are the 'returned' people ie. the Gog and Magog that their significance/presence returns.


What about elevated place? Well this doesn't necessarily have to be a hill or mound like the view has been. An elevated place can refer to positions of power in human affairs. These are often referred to in English as top positions. If one thinks about the influence of the Ashkenazi Jews in world affairs and how many high places they hold (in finance, politics, music, film etc. the list stretches to all human endeavours) then it is not so much of a stretch of the imagination to see that this also supports the finding that it is the Ashkenazi Jews who are the Gog and Magog.

This view is not about racial persecution. It is simply the one that fits best according to the available evidence.

1203

Archeology & History / Who was Zul-Qarnain?

« on: December 06, 2003, 05:31:30 AM »

Peace Layth,

97: Thus were they made powerless to scale it or to dig through it.

Now other translations may say pierce or make a hole in it.  It sounds like something deliberate and a human action.

98: He said: "This is a mercy from my Lord: But when the promise of my Lord comes to pass, He will level it to the ground; and the promise of my Lord is true."

The gates in question are in fact according to the articles still extant but obviously breached. The verse mentions a levelling to the ground or making into dust.

99: On that day We shall leave them to surge like waves on one another: the trumpet will be blown, and We shall collect them all together.


Collect what? The lava or the water? Unless I am missing something as far as what is being referred to as the thing being collected it seems to be people. Whether the thing collected and the surging have anything to do with each other I will leave to you to make a judgment on.

I would argue that you must provide evidence of any two volcanoes or two rivers that support your view (choose your region) and justify your thoughts. Otherwise it becomes conjecture rather than any testable/falsifiable theory. Remember the mountain sides between which the gate/wall was constructed in your analysis.. think about how you explain that in your theory of volcanoes and rivers coming to a point between mountain sides. Also when the wall is commisioned the verse mentions that it is constructed between "us and them". Is the "them" in dual Arabic form or in plural? Gog and Magog according to your theory is about two entities only. Surely you should take this into account.


Your version of Gog and Magog moreover makes the identification of Dhul Qarnain even more problematic.

I think if you examine the evidence carefully you might see that at the bare minimum my theory is historically plausible and fits with events.

1204

Archeology & History / Who was Zul-Qarnain?

« on: December 06, 2003, 04:58:22 AM »

I think you will find people have made arguments for him being Cyrus the Great , a Persian king who was friendly to the Jews, and is mentioned in the bible and would therefore have been known to the Jews and Christians.


I think what is more interesting is not so much to pinpoint who Dhul Qarnain was (which is a historical thing after all) but to identify who Gog and Magog refers to as they are part of a Quranic prophecy.


Now the first step in this regard must be to identify where the wall of Dhul Qarnain might be. There are two reasonable candidates as far as I am concerned. The one I believe it probably is the gates located in the Daryal Pass:

(d?ryl?, Rus. dry?l?) (KEY)  or Dariel (drl?) (KEY) , pass, c.3,950 ft (1,204 m) high, N Georgia, in the central Greater Caucasus Mts. below Mt. Kazbek. Situated above the Terek River, it is noted for its wild grandeur. The Georgian Military Road crosses the pass, which has long been significant as an invasion route. In ancient times Daryal was called the Gates of Alan or the Caucasian or Iberian Gates.

The following links have an article about Cyrus the Great (who lived around 530 BC) and his claims to being Dhul Qarnain of the Quran.

http://home.btconnect.com/CAIS/Cyrus-the-Great/cyrus-the-great.htm
http://www.iranchamber.com/history/articles/zolqarnain_cyrus_quran.php


Now having established the most likely location of the gates we come to the conclusion that the Gog and Magog were war like people living to the North of these gates in modern day Georgia.

It so happens that the Caucasus has been a major highway for Hunnish and Turkic tribes migrating from Central Asia to the Middle East and Europe as far back as the first millenium BC. The region was therefore settled by various waves of tribes that have travelled through the region. The Turkic tribes were very mobile horsemen that have the 'mischeivous' warlike trait that the Gog and Magog possess and required a gate to be constructed.

The Magyars and Bulgars that settled in Europe in later times are also part of the migratory Turkic tribes that moved through this region.

It so happens that the area immediately North of the Daryal Pass was inhabited by a people known as the Khazars (another of the Turkic tribes) who in the time of Islam's birth were a great military people and established a nation in the third to fifth century AD - the Kingdom of Khazaria. The Khazar empire ended in the 10th to 11th Century AD when most of their lands were conquered by the Russian tribes. See more about these people at www.kazaria.com. Knowledge about the Khazars is only being researched now, they had been a forgotten nation for almost a millenium!

Now what makes the story truly fascinating is that the Khazars adopted Judaism somewhere in the 8th to 9th century AD. The time, it must be remembered is when the Eastern Roman empire Byzantium is the dominant force in world Christianity and the rapidly growing Muslim empire is to the South of the Khazars. The Khazars at the time believed in a Shamanist religion of paganism. The King of Khazaria it is said invited envoys from the Christian, Muslim, and Jewish religions and asked each of the envoys in turn to explain why he should adopt their religion. The argument that favoured Judaism for him was that when the Christians and the Muslims were asked what religion they would favour if not their own both indicated they would choose Judaism.

Therefore the Khazars adopted Judaism and became the greatest Jewish nation ever to have existed on the Earth (the largest in population and size). It is stunning that this empire hardly rates a mention in any history books given its size and importance in the region. The answer to this  lies in the fact that the victor's version of history is what is propagated and the Khazars became forgotten after their loss to the Russians in subsequent centuries.

What became of the Khazar Jews then? They can't have just vanished off the face of the Earth.  New research is addressing this question however an important seminal work in this regard was the work of Arthur Koestler (a Jew) in "The Thirteenth Tribe" who argued that the Khazar Jews migrated en masse into Europe and became the origins of the Ashkenazi Jews.

A link to an online copy of The Thirteenth Tribe:
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/13trindx.htm#The%20Thirteenth%20Tribe

This is a controversial area but even the nay-sayers do admit that these Jewish people did migrate to Europe to mingle with the populations there.

It might be pertinent to note that:

A ?Daryal Pass? valley route sometimes called, ?the Pass of Israel,? is clearly marked out in red in the Cambridge History Of Iran, (vol. 3:1:522); it was a favourite passage-way to Europe from the Mid-East.


A favorite passage way to Europe as well as being called "the Pass of Israel" are some of the many small evidences that these Khazar Jews moved into Europe to become the Ashkenazi Jews who appear from apparently nowhere in the Middle Ages immediately after the collapse of the Khazar Empire. Surely there is much presumptive evidence for this migration and origin for the Ashkenazi Jews.

The Ashkenazi Jews are important as far as Judaism goes because they form the majority (approximately 90%) of the present day Jews and the vast majoriity of American Jews. These Jewish people have nothing whatsoever from the original biblical Jewish people and have their ancestors in the warlike Turkic peoples of the North Caucasus.

From Khazaria to America these Jewish people in my opinion represent the Gog and Magog people described in the Quran. The corruption and mischief spread by this group over the latter part of history; the fact that they are spread all over the world and that for the large part they are liberalist humanists (atheists) or followers of fabricated traditions and not their original law fits the description of the Gog and Magog. The Ashkenazim are heavily involved in the world's problems. America's domination in world affairs militarily in alliance with Israel (an Ashkenazi nation) should demonstrate without doubt that these people fit the description better than any other people.

In conclusion; the Ashkenazi Jews who are originated from the North Caucasus Turkic warlike tribes (whom Dhul Qarnain built a wall against) and have spread out to all regions of the Earth causing mischief throughout the land are none other than the Gog and Magog people.

A sign of the coming of the Day of Judgment for you all to witness.

1205

General Issues / Questions / Daddy its not working, they now the truth!!

« on: December 06, 2003, 02:51:57 AM »

Being a "Junior" and given the level of conversation ability I would go so far as to say:

Have a nappy life also !


PS: His "Daddy" allusions come from the childish and purulent 'humour' from Austin Powers films.

1206

Archeology & History / Who was Zul-Qarnain?

« on: December 05, 2003, 04:14:55 PM »

Let's make this short and sweet.

1. Go to Google.
2. Type Zul-Qarnain (also try variant spellings)
3. Read

4. Make up your own mind on who you think he was.

Don't forget that disbelievers were the source of this question and I think it's enlightening that the following, ends the verses on Dhul-Qarnain. For your information I don't think it's a co-incidence that these verses are here for people who questioned regarding Dhul-Qarnain.

99: On that day We shall leave them to surge like waves on one another: the trumpet will be blown, and We shall collect them all together.

100: And We shall present Hell that day for Unbelievers to see, all spread out,-

101: (Unbelievers) whose eyes had been under a veil from remembrance of Me, and who had been unable even to hear.

102: Do the Unbelievers think that they can take My servants as protectors besides Me? Verily We have prepared Hell for the Unbelievers for (their) entertainment.

103: Say: "Shall we tell you of those who lose most in respect of their deeds?-

104: "Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life, while they thought that they were acquiring good by their works?"

105: They are those who deny the Signs of their Lord and the fact of their having to meet Him (in the Hereafter): vain will be their works, nor shall We, on the Day of Judgment, give them any weight.

106: That is their reward, Hell, because they rejected Faith, and took My Signs and My Messengers by way of mockery.

I hope you will satisfy yourself about who he was and whether it is important to you and whether these last verses may apply to your questioning.

Peace.

1207

General Issues / Questions / Why Expose Islam?

« on: December 05, 2003, 01:59:13 PM »

I still strive to keep an open mind. If I lose on a debate I acknowledge it. If someone here can prove that the quran is the word of God then count on it i'd be a muslim in a twinkling of an eye.

I think you are expecting a little too much from a forum. I don't think anyone here would be brave enough to say that it is possible to convince someone (let alone yourself) of the fact that the Quran is the word of God. If it were provable then there wouldn't be an issue of faith at all. It's my belief that if one is sincere, and reads the Quran and if God has decided that the person will be guided then nothing will get in the way of that person's guidance. The Quran is only a reminder to sincere believers.

It's true that many muslims can become self righteous at having attained some guidance. But I think this is ultimately a brake on their spiritual guidance. By becoming proud of it they commit the sin of Satan and are prevented from progressing any further.

God will guide you if you are sincere and ask for His guidance. Ask God sincerely for guidance. If you don't even believe in God's existence then you have only your intellect to use to arrive at an answer. And if that fails you then you only have yourself to blame. See it's firstly a struggle with yourself. Define what you believe to yourself.

Agnosticism is your choice but the irony of what you are attempting to do is that you are trying to convince others to change away from Islam to what? To agnosticism? To attempt to change us is as fruitful for you as it is for anyone here to convince you to change.

Actually I do that once in a while. But since christianity has been reformed it is practically harmless and its tolerance allow christians to discover the truth and leave the religion in peace.

You can't fill a spiritual need in humans with emptiness or doubt. These Christians may discover like you that the bible is not the lamp they believe it is but you are an example of someone who has renounced and left Christianity (God and we are your witness for having said this publicly). But where has it brought you? Look at where you are and what you are discussing.

Abandon the divisive religion of Islam. Find God through something else.

I think you must show us what you have gained by abandoning your faith. Have you found God through something else? Tell us your experiences since you have taken that step and share with us your discovery(ies). I think you will find that your life is emptier now than ever.

So empty that you have to fill it with vain debates here. Instead of filling the void with blank debates don't you feel that you might fill it with true spirituality. You see the earnest and sincere debate that goes on amongst the believers here. Does it really irk you that we are all striving for guidance and searching for truth?

I only know my personal experiences, and you know yours. Only you can decide whether you might not be so different from anyone here afterall.

Only an incompetent God would allow that to happen. And if he exists then only he and the corruptors are to be blamed for the millions of people who were misled by the existence of corrupted scriptures.

I think only God who is rejected by those who make a covenant with Him would allow that to happen. The people who believed in Moses and Jesus allowed themselves to be diverted from the truth and bought their own corruption and misguidance. Why blame God for the actions of humans and satans?

You have been sincere enough to see the error of Christians. We have been sincere enough to see the error and fabrication of hadith. Even if you don't accept the Quran as the word of God I suspect you believe in God at heart (or want to). If you are sincere enough to reject corruption then perhaps you will find truth if you sincerely ask for it.

And how can you say that the Quran remain pure? Has it gone through textual criticisms the way the bible did? The you have the original pieces of parchments, wood, cloth and camel hides where the surahs were originally written?

The Quran has passed the test for me as a result of years of reading it. It's true I was born into the Sunni muslim faith but at one stage in my life I found it to be very ritualistic and full of contradictions and superstitions. I remember saying at one point that I wanted to believe in the religion of Abraham. Many years later events led me back to belief in the Quran's Straight Path but together with rejection of hadith.

The Quran has undergone much study by friends and foes. One thing that is remarkable for me is the symmetries in the Quran. The fact that so many little things are present and so many new things emerge with every reading.  I could give you many examples of what impresses me but here are some at random from my thoughts now:

1. The word day is mentioned 365 times in the singular form. Why not some other number? Surely if the lunar calendar was extant it should have been 354 if it was a word game planned in the text. Is this a coincidence?

2.  The conciseness of the text and yet its important lessons that come through if one contemplates. When describing the story of the Youths in the Cave the story mentions in passing that the youths feel hungry and instruct one of their members to buy food from the 'purest source'. A human story would not include this small but very important detail.

3. When the hoopoe is mentioned in the surah 27 the bird glorifies God by stating: "Who brings to light what is hidden in the heavens and the earth, and knows what ye hide and what ye reveal". Now think about how a bird behaves naturally from day to day. It flies in the heaves and therefore sees from a bird's eye view what  is not normally seen and it scratches at the earth to reveal what is not normally seen. See how the Quran's description of the birds glorification of God is very specially related to us from the bird's point of view - that God brings to light what is hidden in the heavens and the earth.  

Maybe none of this is especially exciting for you but its the small things put together that make complete sense and have beautiful concordance with nature and the way things are created that support my faith.



However, I think the most illuminating thing you have done in this thread is to change the topic from "Who was Zul-Qarnain?" to "Why expose Islam". You started with a question that you said was about sincere curiosity and changed it to one that was your actual chosen agenda in the first place.

Don't you see? Nothing has to be done on my part for the truth to emerge.

Sincerity is the key. Sincerity will set you free.

Peace

1208

General Issues / Questions / Why Expose Islam?

« on: December 05, 2003, 11:47:00 AM »

Hello DoctorNo,

I was too busy elsewhere to take that question seriously. Anyway the answer is this....I finally learned to acknowledge the errors in the bible and that it doesnt make sense that a perfect, all-loving, all-caring, all-powerful God would just let his revelations get corrupted and be the cause of so many disputes, wars and divisions.  I hope you muslims who believe in the idea of a corrupted Torah & Injeel would realize that too.

It is hard for me to give you any useful advice since you seem to have chosen your path and have your intentions already. But I must confess it's interesting that you have moved away from the bible for these reasons. I think this fact shows honesty and sincerity in this matter at least.

I think this might even guide you towards a new goal. If you could convice other Christians of your findings about the bible  then you might go a step towards doing something which you have direct experience of. And that is the important thing. One is always more sincere when they talk from their own experience and deal with things they know intimately.

Your efforts to move people away from the Quran is therefore mistargeted as you have no experience of being on this side of it. We are not Christians and we do not have the bible. The Quran is very unlike the bible no matter how you try to squeeze them in the same basket.

The bible is more like the hadith that people here have trashed long ago. So yes we have seen the light also. By removing the soot and dirt that is the hadith from the lamp of the Quran we have allowed it to shine in our lives and God willing we strive (that's the important word) to make it a source of guidance for us.

Therefore you are right to criticise corruption of divine revelation by humans. The religion of Sunni, Shia, traditional Islam has been corrupted by a book called the hadiths. But see how the Quran itself has remained pure and protected despite this onslaught by innovation and fabrication. The majority of todays traditional muslims prefer the hadith over the Quran just as the Christians prefer Paul's doctrine over Jesus' teachings and the Jews prefer the talmud (their hadiths) over the Law (Torah).

You have an opportunity to see and accept this truth. I think your criticisms really are misdirected here. I think you might gain more by sharing your experiences of discovery of corruption in the bible with other Christians. When you try to merely convey other sites messages to us it sounds hollow and pretencious. I know that's not what you intend but that's how it comes across.

As you state.. you may even "finally learn to acknowledge" that there might be errors in the way you are approaching life right now also.

As for us, you don't have to try to save us, from the Quran or ourselves. We would rather submit and obey God for He alone is the one who saves.

1209

General Issues / Questions / Why Expose Islam?

« on: December 05, 2003, 09:32:24 AM »

DoctorNo wrote:

Half a year ago I was a christian who was actually a "closet-agnostic". Several months ago I came out of my closet and renounced Christianity. And so I became a full pledged AGNOSTIC to the dissappointment of many people. Check the dates of my post.

Is that very hard to understand?

Someone asked what aspects made you change your mind about Christianity but you never really answered. I think the fact that you moved away from Christianity is a sign that your heart is in search of the truth more than ever. I don't think there's any problem with that.. however I think you are buying error at the price of guidance.

As far as your initial question goes.. your arguments are well known to be taken from anti-Islamic sites (answering islam and faithfreedom) and are well sorted in our minds. Think about why you have embraced those arguments. You had embraced Christianity and found it to give you nothing. What makes you believe that you are getting anything from your agnosticism?

You are obviously not freed by your agnosticism. You are still unsure and full of doubt. If you were sure about your allegations of the falseness of Islam then you could easily walk away from this site and be happy with your decision. Live life instead of living online (you have posted a huge number of times on all those sites so it indicates either no life or extreme boredom). But you are not walking away. You have an aim in mind. Is that aim constructive or mischeivous? You will have to answer that question, but everyone here has their opinion I'm sure. Be sure though that something is keeping you here in contact with believers in the Quran. I don't know what it is but that's the question you must answer before asking us questions which you feel will 'crush' any opposition to your doubtful premises.

So, in the end it's your own conscience that you must win the battle over before you can try to argue with anyone here. Agnosticism is by definition a doubt about issues. I'm sure that in some ways you have a sincerity lurking within you but its covered up by the hatred and brainformatting of your earlier life.

I'm being sincere when I say there are people here who are quite intelligent and quite aware of their decision to have faith in and follow the teaching of the Quran. It's hard to describe to you why but each person has that truth emerge within them through God's guidance. I think it requires a step on the part of the individual.

If you are able to overcome the struggle within your own heart first then I think you'll be a lot more comfortable with who you are and what you stand for. Doubt will get you nowhere and earn you nothing.

DoctorNo wrote:

My dear brother in humanity, look at how Islam destroys your soul. I feel so sorry for you. There is so much goodness and truth in life, my friend. If only you can see them.

Unfortunately its hard for you to see that these shoes fit you better than anyone here. Agnosticism is doubt in Gods existence.. what about doubt in the premise of agnosticism itself.. do you want to try and name that particular condition?

As long as you stand for agnosticism you stand for doubt, and doubt will eat your soul away.


My thoughts and may you have the courage to face your own demons.
Peace

1210

Salat & Zakat (The Contact & Purification) / Whether breaking wind nullifies wudu.

« on: December 04, 2003, 12:40:36 PM »

I have read many opinions on whether breaking wind / passing gas nullifies ones wudu (state of readiness and intent to perform Salat).

My view is that it doesn't based on similar analysis to those above.

However my view is that this point is largely irrelevant in normal practice. I will explain why a little later.

I know that attempting to "keep" wudu at all times is practiced by many oblivious muslims. This is as far as I understand it an attempt to remain "pure" at all times. (No matter that they are sweating, probably excessively due to their clamping down of various body sphincters.)  

The problem begins with this presumptive interpretation that the state of wudu keeps one "pure" or "clean".  It does not. God decrees wudu only for Salat and not as a pre-requisite for daily living. It is unhealthy and can cause hydronephrosis ( a condition of the kidneys secondary to urine retention) and bowel diseases (diverticulosis and carcinoma) to hold one's urine or gas/excreta.

Many other traditionalists attempt to keep their wudu state purely for convenience as the time between some prayers is short enough that they attempt to reduce the burden/inconvenience of performing wudu (taking off shoes, drying them etc.) for each prayer. It is a great tool of satan to increase the burden of religious observance in order to wither away the individual's resolve and faith.

With Quran only we know that there is not the 5 times a day requirement of traditionalist Islam, but 3 separate named prayers. The first being at dawn and the next being at dusk there is at least an 8 to 12 hour separation between these on many parts of the Earth. Now leaving the issue of breaking wind/ passinggas aside who does not at least urinate in this time period. If one is drinking the correct amount of fluid for healthy life then I would suggest a visit to the kidney specialists if you aren't producing urine in this amount of time.

What I am trying to say is that no one ought to be able to keep their wudu for 8 to 12 hours based on urine alone let alone gas. And no one ought to believe that wudu is for anything other than preparing for prayer (any other reason is human fabrication as God only requires it for Salat.)

When one takes wudu it is normally followed by Salat shortly after so that breaking wind in this short period of time is not usually an issue. I guess the question is related more to this short time between taking the wudu and the act of Salat.  Otherwise I cannot see how the issue of breaking wind nullifying wudu is relevant as I certainly see no benefit in "keeping" wudu after Salat or for any other human reason.

Take your wudu shortly before your Salat and it won't be an issue; if you do break wind however it is fairly certain from the Quran as far as I understand it that you are still in a state of wudu.

Peace be upon you.