Messages

1

General Issues / Questions / Re: Am I still a Muslim?

« on: December 11, 2012, 04:19:11 PM »

I have no clue who the "you" is, but if you would ask me, I would answer, yes, I need to know that I believe what I believe for a reason. That's why you have empirical, versus stated beliefs. You have Occurrent, Dispositional, Explicit, etc Beliefs.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/belief/

My beliefs are empirical indeed -- some of the things in the Qur'an are extraordinary claims, others less so. I have to ask though, what reason would be sufficient for you to believe? I refer back to my allegory earlier; it is of no difference to the man whether he convinces you or not, he decided of his own will to tell you the tale. I think what more we are looking at here, rather than types of belief, are types of analytical behaviour.

I infer that you believe things based on the truths present and work backwards from there, I believed in the Qur'an by working from the basis that this is a series of 'truths' being presented to me, and then compared them with my own experience and knowledge. As in modern science, even things that have been observed to be true remain a theory. Without the willingness to accept something alternative is the truth, it becomes impossible to progress.

I once thought I saw a UFO. Later inspection showed me it was wishful thinking combined with a trick by my brain. So I stopped believing I saw a UFO.

I don't feel this is a fair analogy, seeing something in the sky could be anything from a unique angle of an object in the sky, to indeed, a UFO. The Qur'an is either the work of man, or the work of God as it claims.

And that is precisely why there is something called faith. Which I lack. So if a person claims he has a Toyota in his garage I accept it. If the claim is there's an invisible dragon in my garage or a 747 I sort of would expect extraordinary evidence for this extraordinary claim.

Again, I don't feel this is a fair analogy. It feels a lot like the 'flying spaghetti monster' argument. If you switch God with something ridiculous and remove the basis of the belief in God -- i.e his works, then it is only logical that you wouldn't believe the claim.

What "extraordinary insight" are you talking about? I am not aware of anything extraordinary said of Muhammad. Except maybe the splitting of the moon, but that is more allegoric than factual.

Not 'of Muhammad', 'by Muhammad'. If you take away God being the author of the Qur'an, then the book must be written by Muhammad -- or Muhammad and his allies. In this case, one would consider the Qur'an to be something extraordinary Muhammad wrote, in the same way The Illiad is something extraordinary Homer wrote.

What exactly would you call "like the Qur'an"? And if someone did, who would be the judge and by what standard? Sorry, the inimitability claim fails badly in reality.

A book claiming to have knowledge 'of the Unseen' if you like. As for judges, considering humanity is subjective the only fair judge would be all of those who read it. However, this is irrelevant, as is the question posed at the end of my first post. The Qur'an itself claims it is of no difference whether you believe it or disbelieve in it, for the author is free of need.

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Introduce Yourself / Re: From sunnah hero to sunnah zero

« on: December 09, 2012, 05:13:34 PM »

Alhamdullilah, how you have changed!

Welcome back.

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General Issues / Questions / Re: Am I still a Muslim?

« on: December 09, 2012, 05:07:47 PM »

After having read the posts in this thread it seems you would not believe without concrete evidence.

I definitely see where you are coming from, before I read the Qur'an I felt the same way -- but I pose a question to you. Had there been hard evidence, would everyone not believe? Is that what God really asks of us?

From reading the Qur'an, I get the message that God wants us to put our trust in him. It is similar to a man coming to you, and narrating an extraordinary tale. It is of no difference of to him whether you believe his story or not, he knows it to be true.

And then the question arises, if the Qur'an is not from God -- how does one explain Muhammad's extraordinary insight? The greatest philosophers who have ever lived haven't managed to come close to recording something like the Qur'an, yet are held in higher esteem in the west.

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Questions/Comments on the Quran / Re: how do Quranist view this ayah?

« on: November 02, 2012, 05:07:15 AM »

well in that case, I live in a KAFIR country, how am I suppose to take guidance form the people who have authority?

Is it not written in the ayah?

...If you dispute in any matter, you shall refer it to GOD and the messenger, if you do believe in GOD and the Last Day. This is better for you, and provides you with the best solution.

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General Issues / Questions / Re: Life after death and back again.

« on: October 22, 2012, 01:40:27 AM »

Salam,

Thank you so much for the insight guys!

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General Issues / Questions / Life after death and back again.

« on: October 18, 2012, 12:58:38 PM »

I've noticed in the Qur'an that life is described as a repeat occurrence, I.E, you live, you are judged and from that judgment you either are reborn in the earth or continue to live in eternity (in the heavens.)

I was recently reading Surah 30 which hints at this;

30:55 - And on the day when the Hour riseth the guilty will vow that they did tarry but an hour - thus were they ever deceived.
30:56 - But those to whom knowledge and faith are given will say: The truth is, ye have tarried, by Allah's decree, until the Day of Resurrection. This is the Day of Resurrection, but ye used not to know.

This seems to imply that those 'whom knowledge and faith are given' witnessed the guilty from a different plane of existence, which suggests to me there are 3 main 'planes of existence', one being the Earth and that which is near to it? The second being the heavens, and the third being the hereafter. -- Not to say that's all that there is, just that this is all I have observed.

It would also tie into that which was mentioned in 2:38,

2:38 - We said: Go down, all of you, from hence; but verily there cometh unto you from Me a guidance; and whoso followeth My guidance, there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

'Go down, all of you, from hence' to me suggests that the heavens were our place of residence up until the time Adam was created, but if we are all sons of Adam then either my logic is faulty or we have been looking at the Qur'an slightly incorrectly. It also mentions, 'neither shall they grieve', meaning those who understand the reminder (the Qur'an) will understand the 'life cycle' and as such will have no reason to grieve knowing what happens to a soul after death.

My questions are, has anyone else noticed this? Also, can anyone show me contradictory evidence, that would be quite nice to see so I can further my research.

Peace be upon all of you.

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General Issues / Questions / Re: Do angels have free will?

« on: July 27, 2012, 08:26:34 AM »

Satan could have easily been an Angel.

Pickthall Translation
18:50 - And (remember) when We said unto the angels: Fall prostrate before Adam, and they fell prostrate, all save Iblis. He was of the jinn, so he rebelled against his Lord's command. Will ye choose him and his seed for your protecting friends instead of Me, when they are an enemy unto you? Calamitous is the exchange for evil-doers.

Sahih International
18:50 - And [mention] when We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam," and they prostrated, except for Iblees. He was of the jinn and departed from the command of his Lord. Then will you take him and his descendants as allies other than Me while they are enemies to you? Wretched it is for the wrongdoers as an exchange.

This verse seems to disagree. It also implies the free will situation -- it is mentioned he is a jinn because only a jinn could disobey a direct command. It also implies that he willingly submitted for a time, until he heard the one command he was unwilling to comply with (to prostrate to Adam.)

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General Issues / Questions / Re: Prophet Mohammed SAS

« on: July 27, 2012, 08:21:43 AM »

I will put it this way,

I have found in the Qur'an, repeatedly, the message that you do not make distinctions between the prophets.

Considering this, it is hypocritical for us to refer to Muhammad and then honour him with SAS, if we do not do the same for every other prophet who has lived. Even the distinction between SAS and AS is too much. So either we carry the respect in our heart when we refer to them (I.E, it's implied this person is of great status) or we honour them all with the exact same term. Anything in between is hypocrisy, imo.

Peace

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Salat & Zakat (The Contact & Purification) / Re: salaat=programming/conditioning

« on: July 26, 2012, 05:27:58 PM »

I think to boil down the message of salat purely to programming/conditioning, is too simple.

I hold salaat to mean the contact prayer. You can hold salaat at any time, and anywhere, and potentially without moving your lips. Your intention through salaat could be to ask for help, to thank, to ask for providence upon yourself or others, etc. The result is, inshallah, manifestation of that which you prayed for, which reinforces itself in your mind as the truth -- the truth being appealing to the mind, results in you engaging in salat.

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What is the nature of God? / Re: Why cant we scientifically prove god?

« on: July 26, 2012, 05:14:45 PM »

Depends on how much proof you want, really, doesn't it?

I mean, if you look at the Qur'an, you can instantly recall events in your life or situations and feelings you've experienced that Allah has already put forward (some 1400 years before you were even born) as an example.
Science is covered in the scripture, to an extent, but it isn't really a pillar of belief, because when the reality reciprocates the Qur'an and vice versa, is there need for flawed human 'proof'?