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Messages - The_Chimp

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1
General Issues / Questions / Re: Alcohol/intoxicants.
« on: January 26, 2014, 05:45:08 PM »
thank you...

I am very convinced the moderate consumption of alcohol is not haram...

and that the excessive consumption of alcohol can lead someone to abomination and haram, and therefore is not advisable...

there is no commandment asking not to consume alcohol in the Quran...

the commandment is not to follow Satan's lures and machinations...

this is what I will answer someone who asks me for advice about this matter... which is the same advice I give myself...

as an exhibit, there is a commandment not to pray while being drunk, with alcohol or any other mind altering drugs, as sukara means inebriated, and you can also get inebriated with opium, heroin, marijuana, etc.

by the way I also agree with the use of marijuana for medicinal purposes, now go ahead and criticise me, LOL! ;)

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there is no commandment asking not to consume alcohol in the Quran...

And this is the disagreement.

Verse 5:90 does forbid Alcohol.

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the commandment is not to follow Satan's lures and machinations

Yes. And those "lures and machinations" [Rijs] are . . . gambling, intoxicant, arrows, etc. Hence - Alcohol is forbidden.

"O you who have believed, indeed, intoxicants, gambling, [sacrificing on] stone alters [to other than Allah ], and divining arrows are but defilement from the work of Satan, so avoid it [the defilement] that you may be successful."

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A very strong refutation to your 'Verb Grammar' argument is the following.  It shows how the meaning of 'leave / separate' in the Lexicon can apply here even if it is referring to the 4th Form Verb

Read this back to yourself . . . it is somewhat contradictory. On one hand - you admit I am right to point out that and on the other you attempt, dogmatically, to hold on to your former position. Result? The above contradictory statement.

The question regarding the verb is simple. I even gave you means to verify it by an impartial Arabic language forum.

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Undoubtedly you will now claim that your Arabic knowledge is better and that the above is incorrect.  But religious obstinancy can make a person persist in falsehood no matter how much they are proven wrong.

Such statements are disingenuous by type. Why don't you wait for my response? What it shows is that you fear my Arabic actually is better and if you do bring forth another reply, which, if like others, is proven to be incorrect - then - that will leave you in dilemma.

Are you saying by above that it does not matter what I reply . . . you are going to carry on believing whatever you fee like?

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But religious obstinancy can make a person persist in falsehood no matter how much they are proven wrong.

Could you point out in what you have proven me wrong? How deceptive! Look at the previous exchange. What is it I am wrong about?

Please do explain.

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General Issues / Questions / Re: Alcohol/intoxicants.
« on: January 26, 2014, 04:47:11 PM »
no need, I do not agree...

I believe in the Quran, and my understanding is that Alcohol consumption is not haram...

That is fine. If you can satisfy your own heart. Some of us disagree with your position. That is all.

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General Issues / Questions / Re: Alcohol/intoxicants.
« on: January 26, 2014, 04:45:57 PM »
I made my stand very clear: I drink alcohol... I am a Muslim... I do not see anything in the Quran that asks me to stop drinking alcohol... I am advised to avoid being drunk when I pray... I am advised not to use alcohol to lose control and fall prey to the machinations of Satan...

and to clarify, in case you did not know ;)

alcohol is a substance that comes as the result of different kinds of fermentations of natural vegetal substances or their by-products...

"Advised" or "commanded"? There is clear difference between the two.

And this:

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I am advised not to use alcohol to lose control and fall prey to the machinations of Satan

is completely unjustified if one takes the actual verse 5:90-91 into account.

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General Issues / Questions / Re: Alcohol/intoxicants.
« on: January 26, 2014, 04:43:46 PM »
the chimp...

you are splitting hair to be right...

you enjoy being right...

I do not...

bye...

Incorrect. This is about the Quran - I always take the matter seriously; that is not say - one can be appropriately humorous. However - there is no "splitting hair" here.

As the saying goes - "either put up or shut up".

6
General Issues / Questions / Re: Alcohol/intoxicants.
« on: January 26, 2014, 04:03:29 PM »
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why are you so fixated about the word intoxicant, it is not being used...

the word khamr is used, and it means a fermented substance...

In this case - Khamer does mean Intoxicant.

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becoming drunk using a fermented substance is such a bad thing, and Allah asks us to avoid being in such a state when we are praying to him...


And to avoid it all together.

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read the Quran using your brain and deductive capacity of reasoning, not invented reasons and objections based on emotions...

Such sentences are pretty useless. Are you that incapable of making your points? Shouldn't it be your reasoning that stands up by itself.

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avoid refers to an extreme use, not a normal use...

How? Please explain this . . . how? Evidence?

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but even then, there are special cases

losing control is not always bad, like using chemical substances to induce a coma, or anesthetics in medicine... or control of pain, psychiatric drugs... etc.

Faulty logic.

Analogy:

In UK, speed limit in built up areas is 30mph. However, under real emergency [such as rushing to hospital] you can break this law. However - using this "special case" to claim that you are generally allowed to drive over 30mph is simply illogical. If you tried that [argument] in court - it will be rejected. 

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General Issues / Questions / Re: Alcohol/intoxicants.
« on: January 26, 2014, 03:52:08 PM »
peace Abdul-Hadi

sorry but khamr translates as fermented substance, not intoxicant...

"Intoxicant - An agent that intoxicates, especially an alcoholic beverage"

 :brickwall:


8
General Issues / Questions / Re: Alcohol/intoxicants.
« on: January 26, 2014, 03:50:18 PM »
how can a substance be intoxicated? learn english please...

Now you are really getting worse. . . more trivial. Flinging another baseless accusation. Where in this quote is "substance" mentioned?

Sweetheart - you are answering to the wrong person . . .


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Khamr here means beverages that are fermented to be intoxicated.

"They ask you about "Khamr"..."

This is why most translate this to be Wine - which in Arabia was produced using the fruit of the date palm. However, all such "Khamr" beverages such as beers and spirits would be prohibited.



Tut! Tut!

9
General Issues / Questions / Re: Alcohol/intoxicants.
« on: January 26, 2014, 03:48:10 PM »
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If you translated it as a "substance" . . then it also mean that we cannot even touch "Khamr" . . or even go near to that substance

Is this interpretation valid ?

Is it logical to understand it as a "substance"?


Therefore . .

It is not clear what you are referring to. khamar cannot be translated as "Substance" - dictionary says no.

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10
General Issues / Questions / Re: Alcohol/intoxicants.
« on: January 26, 2014, 03:45:30 PM »
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the_chimp... (you seem to really be now)

Did not understand this.

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as I said in my first answer to you, avoiding Satan, his whispers, and the tools he uses to manipulate is what it to be avoided...

You said - I answered. It is not avoiding "Satan". It clearly is not - It is avoid the "Rijs". Repeating the same thing without answering objective raised - is not impressive - it does not further debate . . . and it is sign of being "stubborn".

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inebriation and consuming alcohol are two different things...

And you only become drunk BY consuming alcohol.

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and avoiding is not the same as not coming near to, you are confusing matters and contexts...

Yet - I showed you "confusing" the usage as it were.

What does avoid mean? To stay clear of something.  And what is "do not come near" - if not to stay away?

Please explain the actual difference? Do not just claim they are different.

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and I am currently enjoying a Bordeaux Superior red Wine while I am writing this ;)

And?

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I can picture you frothing at the mouth like these idiotic mullahs when they are in the middle of a heated preach...

you crack me up dude... thanks for making me laugh... :)

Petty abuse gets you nowhere. It is simply illogical to target the person rather than his arguments. Kind of shows you have run out. . .

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