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Messages - Assassino

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1
Off-Topic / Re: Any Uncircumcised Here?
« on: January 22, 2013, 09:54:40 AM »
So i'm thinking about foreskin restoration. Sounds a bit...freaky? But i'm determined to be intact.

About how long does it take to get a full restored foreskin and what are the complete benefits? How does a restored foreskin compare to a intact penis AND a circumcised penis? And is it tough/uncomfortable/risky doing this?...

Need to start researching...discreetly :-X

2
Introduce Yourself / Re: Salaam, my journey
« on: January 04, 2013, 08:17:38 PM »
Salafism is a bubble created for those who are more vulnerable. My aunt is a Salafi (a rathy hippy one if I may add). She has a rather bad life; bad kids, horrible mother etc but her salafi community is like her family. It's pretty much what's keeping her feet on the ground. On one hand it has made her not lose her head whilst on the her religious views are on a bizarre league (you can't vote being a recent debate when she came by).

Anyways, I shall stop diverting the thread xD
Welcome. I hope you gain a lot of knowledge here as the brothers and sisters are very passionate about what they say. There's usually no universal yes or no answer on nearly all topics, familiarise yourself with that and you'll be fine.

May Allah make our Journey In life smooth :)

Heh, you pretty much described my Aunt in a nutshell. Niqabi clad, jobless and she doesn't care as she lives on benefits, doesn't want to work anyway, lives with her parents with her four kids (!), married to a bearded religious man (who at the same time is extremely unorganised and lazy), does all the required Islamic rituals but however is a huge mess and an extremely unpleasant woman who shouts at the slightest thing, can never think for herself and only ever socialises with her Salafi circle online on Facebook, Gmail etc. Her kids happen to be very unmannered, courtesy of their parent's upbringing and they create a huge ruckus - she never should have had 4 kids, one would have been more than enough but hey, it's "Sunnah" to have lots of children and Allah shall provide. ::)

Not to mention of her 4 kids, she has 3 very young daughters, all of whom wear headscarfs, the youngest being 2 years old, and she intends on getting an arranged marriage to all 3 by time they hit 18 to Devout Orthodox Sunni Muslims! I really do feel sorry for them. Word of warning - do not attempt to debate my Aunty lest you stab yourself multiple times out of frustration. Thats what religion does...stops people from thinking for themselves. ...Just felt like getting that out :P

On Topic:

Salam and welcome to the forum and sorry for derailing...

3
General Issues / Questions / Re: Am I still a Muslim?
« on: December 14, 2012, 10:59:59 AM »
After having read the posts in this thread it seems you would not believe without concrete evidence.

I definitely see where you are coming from, before I read the Qur'an I felt the same way -- but I pose a question to you. Had there been hard evidence, would everyone not believe? Is that what God really asks of us?

From reading the Qur'an, I get the message that God wants us to put our trust in him. It is similar to a man coming to you, and narrating an extraordinary tale. It is of no difference of to him whether you believe his story or not, he knows it to be true.

And then the question arises, if the Qur'an is not from God -- how does one explain Muhammad's extraordinary insight? The greatest philosophers who have ever lived haven't managed to come close to recording something like the Qur'an, yet are held in higher esteem in the west.

StopS' post is good.

Yes it's come to a point where I need concrete evidence because I cannot rely on faith anymore.

My dilemma is that if God wants all of mankind to believe in his existence then why make his revelations so vague and devoid of evidence. I'm sure God asks of all of mankind to believe in him but even God knew from the beginning that this was impossible as there would always be non-believers. And like I said before I put my trust into Allah wholeheartedly for my whole life, but that never did anything for me. Anything I assumed to be beneficial was only the reaction of my emotions and now I do

I think it's interesting that the first "issue" you listed was the sex before marriage issue. 



Whats interesting about this?

I don't have a GF if thats what you're thinking.

4
General Issues / Questions / Re: Knocking on the doors of atheism
« on: December 08, 2012, 07:37:18 PM »
If God actually proved His existence I'd have no problem worshipping Him. But like every other religion that has ever existed, there is no evidence for God's existence.

It's a waste of time for me to post here any longer. Most people will never see any opposing viewpoint as valid. Everyone clings to their own beliefs regardless.

Are you sure people here always cling to the beliefs no matter what? ;)

If we found existence of a God, then I'd still find it hard to worship or "serve" that God. Because I would want to understand why God wants us to worship or "serve" him when he doesn't need worship and he obviously has given us 'free will' so I feel there can never be a satisfactory answer to this. By implying that God wants us to worship him points to God having some sort of Ego. An all knowing and merciful God would let us go on with our merry lives without interfering as he decided to give us free will in the first place.

5
General Issues / Questions / Re: Am I still a Muslim?
« on: December 08, 2012, 07:29:21 PM »
No one can tell you whether you are a believer or not. God alone knows what is in the hearts of humans. But I will try my best to respond to some of the things you've posted in the hopes of helping you ask more questions about what you believe and why or at least give my own contrasting views on them to start a discussion. It has gotten to be very long so bear with me. :P

1. I think sex before 'marriage' is ok especially if it's between a loving couple.
And is it impossible for people to have a loving relationship in a marriage? Or are you saying that marriage is not necessary if two people want to sleep together?

2. If I get married, I would be more comfortable marrying an atheist or an agnostic - or an irreligious person in general as I know they happen to be fairly open minded and tolerant (from my experience, far more so then religious people). They would be less likely to indoctrinate any future kids and/or pressure me to conform to any of their beliefs which cannot be proven. Sectarian muslims, fundamentalist Christians and Orthodox Jews would be at the bottom of my list.
I have been close to many atheists and agnostic or irreligious persons. I have never been the first to bring up religion or my beliefs with them, I only answer their questions if they ask me why I do certain things and why and what I believe. I try to respect everyone's views and not tell them that they are wrong or stupid for what they believe.  But every single one of these individuals have been intolerant of my beliefs. They have mocked it, telling me I believe in something that is "false" (astaghfurallah), and have been very rude towards my views. Some have even told me to leave Islam because they didn't believe in it.

In the uni I go to, I've taken many courses - in philosophy, sociology, biology, chemistry, politics, among other courses. In very many of these courses, the professors have often belittled religion in general and religious people. When I say they belittle them, I mean that they have said things that either explicitly or implicitly implied that religion is false and/or religious people are somehow unintelligent, non-reflective. And they never seem to say "in my opinion" or "I don't believe". It's said as if they are stating factual, objective truths. Sometimes they've engaged students in conversations mocking religion during lectures. I've walked out in those lectures.  As such individuals are so open towards their discouragement of religiousness in strangers and friends, one may reasonably think that they would teach their children that all religion is false and that religious people are weak-minded (as those individuals have said or implied that to me themselves). I've heard of people who have to hide their religion or faith from atheist parents.

So, I've learned that atheists, like all people can be close-minded and intolerant when it comes to opposing views or beliefs.
I think that if someone strongly believes in something and thus wants to raise their child in an atmosphere where their views are upheld, then it would only create conflict if they were to raise children with someone with polar opposite views. From people I know, this only seems to work if both or one are not strong in their beliefs (whether it's the belief that no god exists - astaghfurallah - or that there is a God). It works better if both share most of the most important views and beliefs. In fact, this goes for any view or belief whether it is political or social (ie. how to discipline children, etc) if these views are sensitive, personal, and strongly held.

3. I don't believe in angels.

This is curious. Why not? Is it because you find it unlikely that beings exist beyond our senses and experience, who are made of light, and who are obedient to God? Or do you carry a different image of them.

4. I dont believe that prayer is necessary, nor do I believe it actually does anything.

Studies show that meditation and prayer, for even ten minutes of this time each day has been shown to alleviate stress. Also, decreased focus on the self has been related to heightened spirituality and the brain functions related to it. I believe that prayer increases this decreased focus on the self and heightens spirituality. My own experiences with prayer have given me comfort, sense of calm, determination, focus, and contentment. I've also found that when I stop praying, I tend to eventually return to all of the bad habits that I've been trying to kick and go into a not very good state of being and mind. I've linked some related articles.
On the brain and spirituality (and decreased sense of self related to it): http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2133032/There-God-spot-new-research-claims-instead-spirituality-exists-brain.html


5. The verse about flogging fornicators puts me off greatly. Does anyone here actually agree with this punishment?

If we are to comment or discuss any subject that the Qur'an discusses, it is unreasonable to ignore relevant quotes and focus on one solitary one. This is the verse on flogging fornicators:
"The [unmarried] woman or [unmarried] man found guilty of sexual intercourse - lash each one of them with a hundred lashes, and do not be taken by pity for them in the religion of Allah , if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment." 24:2

Notice that a group of believers must have witnessed this act.

This verse also follows:
"And those who accuse chaste women and then do not produce four witnesses - lash them with eighty lashes and do not accept from them testimony ever after. And those are the defiantly disobedient" 24:4

They need 4 witnesses. When people fornicate, they don't often do it public or where this many people may witness their act. The very act of accusing people of fornication without substantial evidence (thus engaging in gossip) is almost equally as bad as the differences between the two acts is 20 lashes. These rules, if enforced, may serve to protect people from undue gossip and speculation. Whether or not you believe that fornication is wrong is your opinion. But in many nations, fornication (especially by women) is already punishable. Such a law would protect them, in my view.

6. I don't understand why Pork is forbidden, because Allah doesn't give a specific reason. Why should it be forbidden when its perfectly safe to eat when cooked properly - just because God says so? And no, I'm not dying to try Pork, in fact I could easily live without it forever.
I'm sure many people, considering the advances in science, can explain why pork is not good for a person to consume. However, I follow this not because it is bad but because that is what God ordained for believers. The very meaning of "Muslim" is submitter to God's will and "Islam" is submission to God. That is my religion. So I follow God's Word out of submission to Him and also trust. This relate to the narration of Prophet Abraham being told to sacrifice one of his sons. He chose to submit to God and kill his son as sacrifice. He did not kill his son as God prevented this, as it was a test.  In the Qur'an, it says that the East and West belong to God, so wherever we turn, there is the Face of God (2:115). So why, then, are we to pray in the direction of Mecca? The point is not the act of eating or not eating pork itself or praying facing the sky or facing the Kabbah. The point is the act of submission to God. It may be perplexing to some but this is what Islam is entirely about. God is the Truth, the Light, and Holy. To submit to this All-Knowing Being is an act of goodness in and of itself. The more I think about this, the more my thoughts lead me to the Universe, its truths, and the non-physical or what we cannot see or measure or sense.

Maybe try reading the Qur'an, specifically its verses regarding submission to God and things relating to the non-physical. Try to explore the metaphysical and research. Who knows? Maybe such earnest mental exploration may answer some questions and create more.


7. Did 'miracles' such as Moses parting the sea, river or whatever it was (since many here don't believe these events occurred in Egypt - if they happened, including me) actually happen? Because I don't believe in miracles and if God exists then I don't believe God would intervene for us measly humans.

Yes. I do believe it happened. And an observation of the 99 Names or Attributes of God can show one the traits of God that relate to how He cares for us. Many verses show that God keeps the order of the universe. By that, I mean keeping the Universe and Heavens in place, the buoyancy of ships in seas, expanding the Universe, among very many other things. I will only quote some of the verses regarding this but there are many more. Our hearts do not beat without His willing it. We do not wake and live if He does not will it. The verse below shows this:
 
"And He is (The One) Who takes you up by night, and He knows whatever you indulge in by daytime; thereafter He makes you rise again therein that a stated term may be decreed; thereafter to Him will be your return; thereafter He will fully inform you of whatever you were doing." 6:60

This shows that God is always "intervening" in keeping us alive for a period of time, in protecting us (there are verses in the Qur'an that mention this), among other things. Similarly, God holds up the heavens:
"Have you not seen that Allah has subjected to you whatever is in the earth and the ships to run upon the sea (Literally: in the sea) at His Command, and He holds back the heaven so that it should not fall down upon the earth except by His permission? Surely Allah is indeed to mankind Ever-Compassionate, Ever-Merciful." 22:65

"Allah certainly holds together  the skies and the earth lest they get separated and if the get separated, no one other than Him can hold both of them together . He is certainly Clement, Protectively Forgiving" 35:41

The above verses, among many others in the Qur'an use God's Names/Attributes that describe Him as a Being that forgives, loves, creates, protects, and sets things into motion for our benefit and for His purpose whether we know it or not. Every surah except one in the Qur'an (so that is 113 in total) begins with "Bismillahi ar Rahman ar Raheem". This means "in the Name of God, the Most Compassionate, the Most Merciful". God's Names "the Most Compassionate" (ar Rahman) and "the Most Merciful (ar Raheem) are mentioned other times throughout the Qur'an as well. There are many other names that illuminate similar Attributes of God (ie. Most Loving, Source of Peace, the Gentle/Subtly Kind, the Preserver, among others). You can find them listed on this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/99_Names_of_God

So the above verses (among others I did not quote) refer to God as a Holy Being that sets things into motion for our benefit and for His purpose. They also mention His Attributes which describe Him as the Most Loving, Compassionate, among other things. This describes a Being that does care for us "measly humans".

Regarding miracles happening, the Qur'an states they did happen. Read 18:9-18:13. God states that the story (/miracle) of the cave dwellers is indeed true. Many other verses that describe other miracles state this as well. As for humans knowing or finding any evidence of these long-ago events: the Qur'an describes many things that were learned after the Qur'an was sent down such as the combining of the egg and sperm in the womb, among other things. And humans learned this after these revelations were sent to us. God is All-Knowing and Most Wise and as such, He knows things humans do not and may never know. That doesn't make them any less true. As a submitter, I accept the Word of God as absolute Truth so I don't doubt these things happened. In fact, that's never been a struggle for me, in my memory.

8. Virgin birth is impossible (well not exactly in the modern day where women can get pregnant via artificial insemination - for example), so I find it extremely hard to believe that Isa was born from a virgin mum.
This is a miracle. Read the response to 7.

9. I find it hard to believe in Judgement day. I also find it hard to believe in the after life - hell doesn't sound like a just punishment at all. Allah calls himself merciful but the Quran details hell in an extremely gruesome way; a place I would never wish my worst enemy upon.

He is Merciful and He is also Just. Justice entails the punishment of evil deeds. Regarding those who refuse to discontinue their evil actions, who do not repent, who do not feel guilt, and who do not turn to God until they face Him on the Day of Judgment - if God so wills to punish such people, why should they receive forgiveness when they did evil, did not repent, and did not turn to God? Likewise, why should a man be spared from a life in prison if he has committed a grave crime, feels no remorse and does not want to stop doing his evil actions? In short, he shouldn't. In the name of justice, he should receive punishment. This is according to my own opinion. God alone is Master of the Day of Judgement, He alone will decide upon who to bestow His Mercy and upon who to inflict the Punishment of the Hereafter. Hell is a horrible place, but do you wish instead that all evil people were to spend eternity in Paradise? I believe that God is Just so I trust in His will.

10. In my opinion, being gay is natural for some people. Even if it isn't, I don't have a problem with relationships or marriages between same sex couples, though, being a straight person, it isn't my cup of tea.
In my opinion, I believe that whether or not someone is gay is their own business. In cases like this, it is up to God what should happen to people regarding their deeds. It has nothing to do with me. But things that affect others are everyone's business such as slandering, murder, among other evil actions.

11. I don't understand why Allah had to create life, create fallible humans, communicate to the chosen people (i.e the Prophets, giving them 110% faith) in order to bring humans back to the 'right path' when he didn't need to create life in the first place.
I don't know why God willed to create. There are many things we do not understand, about our own Creation (none of use remember it), about our own fate, about why some things happen, and many other things. I accept this. I seek knowledge but I also know I will never know some things.

Humans were given free will. And as such we can choose to believe, to disbelieve, to disobey, to obey, etc. Humans are fallible and sometimes go into error. Adam and Eve both erred when they ate the forbidden fruit. Rather than punishing them by sending them and their offspring to earth for eternity, God bestowed His Mercy upon them. He allows humans to live on earth for a period of time. Then they will be gathered on Judgment Day. Those who submitted to God and did good in this life may be rewarded in the Hereafter and those who did not may be punished in the Hereafter if God wills.

It is because we have free will that there are those who chose to go astray and disbelieve and because of their disbelief, they will not listen to anyone who tries to tell them the truth. The prophets and revelations were sent down to those who were ignorant because they had no knowledge of the Truth but those who will not listen will not change. This life is a test and determines what may be our fate in the Hereafter, if God wills. As such, how can people do good and believe if they never knew the Truth? So the prophets were sent for that reason, I believe.

12. Why did Allah have to create anything? It would have been better if nothing was created at all, then we wouldn't have to put up with all the problems this world has to offer (and the after life supposedly). It would have been nice if Allah gave a justifiable reason to all of this, but I guess there is none.

God willed to inform us of some things and not others. As believers, we are told to Trust God. Part of that Trust is trusting in Him even if we do not know all that He knows, as God is All-Knowing. the answer I gave on 10 and 11 also relates to this.

13. Why does Allah get so angry when people worship idols or commit shirk, and then threaten them with severe punishment? Sure, worshipping an idol sounds pretty ridiculous but no one is getting harmed.
In Islam, I believe that there is a relation between truth and good. Upholding what is true is good. Denying the truth and turning to lies and untruth is evil. There is an ultimate Truth and that is God. To deny the Truth is therefore evil. To disobey God is evil. We damage ourselves, our souls in the process if we do this. We purify our souls and light by doing good and believing. While in this world, the idea of utilitarianism prevails at times (ie. "Actions are right in proportion as they tend to promote happiness, wrong as they tend to produce the reverse of happiness" - John Stuart Mill - reverse of happiness here includes harm, lack of security, lack of prosperity, among other things that may produce happiness). But the higher order is that of ultimate good and evil and ultimate harm and benefit (to our own souls) rather than only punishing any harm done to others.

14. I'm starting to lose faith in the existence of a higher power?

A lot of my responses came from the Qur'an. Why not take a deeper look at the Qur'an, aiming for an objective reading of it. So that would mean keeping the biases and opinions you already have on it and in general out of it and try to be as objective as possible. If something creates questions in your mind, explore it further by finding relating verses. Reflect on them. Reflect on why you have those questions and opinions, what cultural or other factors led you to have them? I've read the Qur'an before, a little, I believe but once I really sat down and focused on it, trying to keep out prior biases and beliefs, I really could explore it and reflect upon it. It's up to you to explore it or whether you can't bring yourself to do it.

These are all doubts that surfaced initially when I started losing faith in Islam (Sunnism) but at my discovery of Quran Alone Islam I was overjoyed and it seems I just brushed these issues under the carpet after receiving no satisfactory answers. But they've come back to haunt me. Does holding these views make me a non-muslim according to Muslims on this forum?

I feel quite sad that I have such doubts because I realise that I could be losing something that I've held close to me for my whole life...

I never said it's impossible for people to have a loving relationship when married, lol. And yes, if two people want to have sex, imo marriage is not needed.

As for me, I don't think I've come across any non-believer who mocked my previous beliefs probably because they simply never cared. Maybe it's because I've grown up mainly among muslims for my whole life, I dunno but the non-believers I know are great people. And I forgot to mention - along with religious people; a militant Atheist or someone like that would be at the bottom of my list as well.

I don't believe in angels because there is no evidence of their existence. The words of the Quran are not evidence, rather faith based evidence - something I can't really ascribe to anymore. Of course this depends on how you interpret malaika.

The requirement of 4 witnesses is bronze age mentality - likewise the flogging punishment; this sort of stuff used to happen in England 300 years ago. People should be free to fornicate a they please (should not be mistaken for me being a fan of fornication).

Again, God requires obedience to him, by ordering us not to consume pork. This is absurd. First of all, God - if he exists - does not need us to be obedient to him. Secondly, your just advocating blind belief - i.e. 'do not consume pork because god said so and because god said we have to be obedient to him.'

For these miracles to happen, the laws of physics had to be broken, yet there is no proof anywhere of such grand miracles ever occurring - just the idle talk of religion and divine scripture, whether that be Judaism, Christianity or Islam. Neither have hard proof to bring to the table and some people like me don't have faith to fall back on.

Now if Judgement day does exist, I'd suppose it'd be a good thing. But again, I don't have faith. Ideal things such as absolute peace do not exist in this world so of course humans fall back on to an afterlife in which absolute justice occurs. Of course with no evidence. If an afterlife does exist, I'm don't think it would be the one described in any holy book.
 
God would have done us a big favour if he explained to us why he decided to do anything but he didn't. He expects us to rely on faith and serve him, but I cannot.

Thanks for your reply :peace:

6
General Issues / Questions / Re: Am I still a Muslim?
« on: December 08, 2012, 07:06:46 PM »
Salam assissino

When I read this topic, it shocked me how close your views are to my own. I can say that im in exactly your position at the moment.
If im bieng honest, if listed all my views and methodology, no doubt people would consider me athiest; which  for me is the default position i.e not believing or taking true unless you have valid justification/evidence to do so. This justification/evidence is different for different people, some set the bar low and some like myself are very meticulous. So don't feel to disheartened at labels; like other posters have said labels dont really tell the whole story. One thing im grateful i learnt from quran only islam and this forum is to challenge ideas and question.

I have the same view with regards sex outside of marriage. I would however like to bring up the issue of STD's, it is obvious to state that their is a greater risk to catch std's  when one sleeps around, but however the cause of the problem is not random sex, however it lies in bieng unaware that the person carries a std. Awareness and cause of the problems are the issues and those linking them to sleeping around is abit naive.

Marriage has come up alot for me as ive got to a stage where i'd like to start a family. the worrying thing is that i myself feel incompatible with many religious people. Open-mindness and tolerence i have noticed is more prevelant amongst free thinkers, those who reflect and study tend to be alot more suitable for me atleast. This rarely occurs among devoutly religious people and that is the problem for me. Say you marry a devout sunni/christian/hindu/anti-thiest etc and you have kids, you may indeed be open minded however if you significant other is really devout they will definitely enforce there views on kids. The issue boils down how invested the person is in there beliefs and whether those beliefs allow for them think outside of box.

to reply to your views on miracles. This is what has been the pivotal for me recently. When i first started quran only islam miracles i accepted as a package included with the power of God but chose not to devout time to studying it. I only took up interest in miracles recently when sunni's were flashing around hadiths as proofs of miracles and scientific miracles in the quran. This got me curious.

First we need to define what we mean by miracle ;-
1. a highly improbable but still possible event/occurance e.g falling from a tall building and surviving.
2. an impossible event/occurance which goes against the "laws" that we know govern our reality e.g an actual headless man walking and talking with his head in his arms.

In the case of 1 there are several claims that can fall in to this category, however you need to be aware that this implies that it is able to be explained and examined using science, if not they fall to second category.

Majority of the miracle claims of a religious nature fall in to the second. This is where the problems starts for me. Depending on how one defines God (its pointless otherwise), I'd say for purposes of this, God is limitless/boundless and cannot be comprehended meaning literally God can do absolutely anything. So it is in Gods ability to do the virgin birth.
now here's the thing the quran states that in few places that God does not go against our reality i.e his decree is unchanging (feel free to correct me if im wrong, cant remember the relevant verses might be mistaken), he can but he doesn't becuase of the business of free will etc. However he also states that he shows signs to us for those who believe and these signs include the virgin birth. Jesus was concieved from literally nothing and is like occurance of Adam from nothing ( im aware this is not the only interpretation). We know this from our understanding of reality that this feat is not only impossible but cannot be tested or reproduced. If reality tells us such a thing is impossible and untestable then how is one able to attest to an event such as the virgin birth even happening. Im told its a sign of God and fair enough but thats the same as me telling someone I the hear voices in my head which gives the correct lottery numbers but i choose not to play them. this is also a circular reasoning because God then requires us to believe to believe. When i need a good evidence to believe as a basis.

My view on the punishments in the quran seem to be very excessive and in particular the punishment for disbelievers in hell. The problem for me ties in with the concept of free will and it the following applies to the concept of hell in general for "sinful" acts

1. Did God create hell? according to the Quran i'd say yes.
2. Did God create the criteria by which the universe works and how souls are judged? according to the quran i'd say yes. He set the rules of reality and he set the rules of who goes to heaven and hell.
3 Does anything happen that goes against  God will or does anything occur independantly of God (something that God is NOT aware of)?
according to the quran id say no. God is omniscient etc.
4 So ultimately God is responsible for the for who he sends to hell and free will is irrelavent. And to say that we are responsible for our own fates is frankily contradicting various areas of the quran.

Their are various ways one can spin it but this just makes the whole idea of punishment for something god ultimately led us to do quite baffling. This also leads the question of how does one realise he is rightly guided? Like you said alot of question do go unanswered when going from sunni to quran only islam.

Id like to say something about faith. After years of contemplation ive realised in my own view that faith really isn't a pathway to truth. It for me gives me something to believe i have no good reasons to believe. For me in my sunni days it made me quite biased toward favorable sources and jump to conclusion. When i came to quran only i only kept faith in God but made a biased assumption that the quran was the word of God without any justification to do so. So here i am in a poition to evaluate the quran is what it say it is. and honestly its not looking very good.

Ive realised if God exists then he will exist regardless if the quran is true or not. For me my main desire is to know what is true and not what i want to be true, and that is a decision you yourself have to make.

My advise would be go first through the different arguments for GOD. Ontological and so on and also go through the oppositions to them also. then decide do you believe God exist or not. If you feel you like the idea of God then go and read up on various religions that interest you but remember be aware of the jump one can make from saying there is a god to quran is the word of God with no justification, its easy trap to fall in to.

Id also like to add that the quran itself is the claim and CANNOT be used as the proof of itself. by that i mean saying the quran is the word of god because it says it is the word of god is not proof. also contrary to what some may believe you cannot use the quran itself as a proof of GOD because you first have to prove God exists before attribute something to Him. Thats where you have to decide whether you believe god exists or not and analyse the quran to see whether it is the word of God, which i myself have doubts about

Good luck on your journey to truth.

Peace :peace:

Salam seekingtruth, I enjoyed reading your response  :peace:. Also sorry for the late reply...and to everyone else who i wont be able to reply to...have been busy.

It seems we're both on agreement on most things. I can't accept the Quran is the word of God just because God says so, nor is there any evidence of there being anything remotely divine about the Quran. In my opinion, the supernatural and the divine do not exist, since there has never been any proof of either, only conjecture over the 4000 year history or so of the Abrahamic faiths.

And I agree, that first we need evidence of the existence of God. And even if there is, I have to ask, does it matter? God could exist, but that doesn't change anything in our lives does it? Our prayers still go unanswered and people still struggle to survive.

And good luck on your quest to start a family. Me personally, I'm not ready for such a thing...until a long long time. My family obviously want me to get married to a nice sunni muslimah, though thats definitely not going to happen. I think there'll be a few heart attacks the day I come home with a non-believing westerner and then I'll have to fear the wrath of my mum and my grand parents. Should make for an interesting thread one day. :rotfl:

So, do you still identify as a muslim? In your opinion are we still 'muslims'? (of course I don't care much for labels but i'm curious what others think)

Take care and post more :peace:

7
General Issues / Questions / Re: Am I still a Muslim?
« on: November 30, 2012, 04:36:22 PM »
Hello,
Replies to questions # 1 - 9 in blue. These are my opinions and do not reflect the views of free-minds. Also, I haven't read all the other posts so what I say could be a repeat.


Peace.

Hi.

The reason why I said 'especially loving couples' is because I see absolutely nothing wrong with sex between a committed people BUT i'm not sure if I can either fault those who are mature enough to engage in casual sex? The idea of sleeping around doesn't sit comfortable with me but if there is consent among two people, im not sure if I can call this wrong. Yes, by doing so, there is greater risk of STDs, unwanted pregnancies therefore resulting in potential single mothers but by consenting, these are risks that the two people take into consideration. And if they don't, well tough if something bad happens.

You say:

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Marriage historically served a purpose, binding men and women to a contractual promise that if otherwise didn't exist, they could leave without a financial mess at their hands, and social stigma (motives for staying and working on the marriage - that's the reality). It is more pleasing to think that "a real loving couple" would not break up on a whim but they can and do, easily. Speaking as a female, I do not like the thought of a man leaving me after have relations with him. Some women can accomplish it, but in general, it is trickier for women to separate emotion from sex even those who have adapted to Western dating life. Marriage is a testament of commitment to the couple involved, the public, and to God. Maybe that stopped a while ago, but it ought to be that way. 

Your'e right. But times change and people also change. You obviously wont like a man leaving you after having 'relations', but who's to say a marriage or some 'contract' won't prevent him from leaving you anyway? And is marriage really a testament to commitment? We often find marriages breaking up between people who've been married for years, or decades, while on the other hand, some couples live together forever without getting married or signing a 'contract', and I expect this to increase as less people get married due to people beginning to find it unimportant. Who's to say what the world will be like in 1000 years time, the concept of marriage may all but be forgotten. It wasn't that way before, due to a more conservative society, with people finding it necessary to conform to society and their family, and no doubt the will of the Abrahamic faiths shaping the majority of the World - and it still is this way in many areas; the country in which I have my roots for example.

It depends on what you teach your child. If you teach your child that God exists, and everyones destiny is heaven and hell depending on your actions, then you could class that as indoctrination. Neither of these things can be proven but a naive child would take it as fact if taught as such from an early age - children are efficient learners. Personally I think its not a good idea to teach young children about God, or religion in general but in the end the parents have control over their kids, and no one has the right to interfere unless there is physical abuse involved.

Usuary is often a bad thing but then again, society wouldn't be able to work properly without involving interest. If you plan on taking a loan, then your'e accepting the risks that come along with it, and if you find you cannot pay the debt, then you only have yourself to blame imo. However, not all are on agreement here. Some argue that context is required when looking at Quranic verses forbidding usury. Others say that if your financially stable then usury isn't a problem. This does need to be looked into more in depth. Besides, in the modern world, you can only buy a house without mortgage if you come from a wealthy family, or if you rise up from the ashes and become incredibly successful in life. The majority however, cannot.

On the instance of Pork, if you cook it properly then all bacteria and microscopic worms die and the meat is good to eat. This applies to most other meat, as most meat contains dangerous bacteria, especially red meat. You could probably capture a wild skunk from your backyard, kill it, skin it, and cook it with it being safe to eat in the end, though I highly recommend you do not try this.

If God did indeed send the Quran and Prophets, and performed magnificent miracles such as parting the sea/river, then we need to ask why God decides not to answer prayers, or at least most prayers. Because there are millions of unanswered prayers out there, and I can't remember if any single prayer of mine had been answered.

I find Judgement day hard to believe in simply because there no evidence to support it. Sure it sounds ideal, but things that sound ideal are often brought about by our own emotions rather than logic or evidence. The idea of God that always existed is ideal because we don't know what kick started the Universe. I guess we'll only find out for sure once we die, right now we can only speculate.

8
General Issues / Questions / Re: Am I still a Muslim?
« on: November 30, 2012, 03:17:55 PM »
The verse says "believer for the believer and unbeliever for the unbeliever" so what's important is the state of mind. Many people will verbally say that they deny the existence of God, but their mentality and their hearts say otherwise.

What do you mean? How can one's mentality and 'heart' go against what they're thinking? Do righteous actions mean people are somehow believers in God even if they deny this?

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I would argue that the important part of that video was about how pigs process food and where the toxins go and how fast they digest things. If a beaver's digestive system is 4 hours, then I'll agree with you but until then... :elektro:

Well tbh, i'm no scientist. So the physics behind a pig, a kangaroo or a cockroach's digestive system gets a bit long winded for me and I have to ask, does it really matter? As long as you cook Pork properly, the meat will almost certainly be good to eat and this applies to every other animal out there. In short, I don't think a Pig's (or any other animal's) digestive system matters if you cook the meat well and enjoy the food. :eat:

Regardless, Allah forbids Pig meat without giving any reason whatsoever, so we're just speculating here on why Allah in his infinite wisdom forbids pork. HOWEVER, if you're a fan of raw meat, I'd agree, stay away from pork at all costs. :yes

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I would argue that the body functions because of God. He also gave us brains to understand in which situations we'd stay alive.

But then it's our brains keeping us alive. :P

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Perhaps from your perspective it wasn't needed. God's perspective might be different. But that's only something He can answer.

It is indeed something God can only answer. And yet he didn't answer this in the Quran. Hopefully we find out one day why everything exists, though I doubt it.

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Since when did God want blind faith? And why don't you think objective truth exists?

Did a quick search of "objective truth" and found this article: http://atheism.about.com/od/philosophyepistemology/a/ObjectiveTruth.htm

So I kind of see what you're saying, I think.

Yes, but I'm also talking from a religious viewpoint. The 'fact' that God exists 100%, the after life exists 100% and our purpose is to attain jannah or heaven. Many people can't relate to this; for example, a muslim may pray to Allah 5 times a day, but not be able to feel his existence. The religion tells him to do it, but he doesn't feel anything. In short he's doing something he otherwise wouldn't simply because of fear of rejecting his/her God's demands and you could apply this to any religion/creed. On the other hand, with subjective truth, people believing what they feel is truth based on their own experiences and likes - in short thing we relate to. I'm not sure if i'm making sense here because this is a bit hard to explain.

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Aww. Lol. I am very similar.

Good to know. :laugh:

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Thanks, bro. I'm glad I could help a little.

Peace and blessings!  :yay:

Keep up the long posts, I like them. ;)

And yes, you like everyone else are proving to be good help even if I don't agree on certain things. :)

9
General Issues / Questions / Re: Am I still a Muslim?
« on: November 30, 2012, 02:37:47 PM »
my answer is based solely on my understanding. which isn't much to begin with. bear with me.
1.(Sex before marriage?)
I don't think sex before marriage is ok based on the verses you've quoted about lashing the fornicators/adulterer.in google translate  the word  وَالزَّانِي  is translated as Adulterer not fornicator but this need to be study more in depth.


Why don't you think sex before marriage is ok? Just because Allah says so in the Quran? Needless to say, there is difference of opinion on whether extramarital sex is permissible among Quran Only muslims.

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2.marriage with atheist? agnostic? muslim? in the end it all depends who that person is. for example you could marry an Atheist that doesn't like your beliefs and would prevent you from further teaching the child your views. being an atheist doesn't make a person open minded. nor does being in a muslim society makes a person muslim. Allah knows who and what we are.

I never said being an Atheist makes one more open minded. Thats why I specifically stated 'in my experience'. However, Irreligious people aren't bound by religious laws, so this may explain why Atheists etc, tend to be more open minded from my experience. It may also explain why some of the most successful countries have large Irreligious populations such as Sweden, Canada, Australia, Norway etc.

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3. angels? as in Gabriel?(Jibreel) I think any person that believes the Quran was sent down from Allah/Creator need to recognise the character Jibreel.

I'd be more inclined to believe in this if there was some sort of evidence pointing to the existence of angels/invisible beings. People here may disagree on what the word Jibraeel actually means, so I think this needs to be looked into further.

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4.Prayer is for our own well being. Contact Allah. so he might reply.

I have, numerous times. But I never got a reply.

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5. see my answer above regarding this issue. if it is the command of Allah then we must hear and obey. (this verse needs more reading maybe it does mean "fornicator" rather then "adulterer")

Some people aren't sheep.

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6.I think there is a verse in the Quran that forbids Jews from eating a certain kind of food because it was a punishment from Allah for what they used to do. similarly Allah has a reason to forbid  us the eating of pork(maybe it is a test I don't know.. if a thing as simple as not eating a certain kind of animal should hinder a person from his or her deen then... :(  )

Interesting that you brought this up. Yes the Quran does mention certain foods being forbidden for Jews, but then this begs the question: Why? Why are Jews being punished for the sins of Jews a few (many?) thousand years ago? Original sin much?

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7.Allah intervene?
it is easy for Allah,  the splitting of the sea is as unbelievable to me as there is a giant floating ball of fire outside beaming energy rays to us. yes,I'm talking about the Sun. surely ONE that could create the universe and us humans.. the splitting of the sea would be nothing to Allah the Lord of the worlds.

OK. Sure it should be easy for God to do these things. But then this creates a paradox - Why doesn't God intervene in the modern world and answer people's prayers when he decided to intervene a few thousand years ago and do something as magnificent as parting the sea/river in half? God isn't being fair in this regard OR we could say that God doesn't answer prayers, and he didn't intervene in the past to perform miracles, if he is to be consistent. The Quran being revealed to Muhammad is itself a miracle. I think we need to investigate this further as well.

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10.
homosexuality?
Allah condemns homosexual relationships in the Quran. maybe a man could be attracted to another man but according to my understanding Allah has forbidden the relationship.

Maybe you think so but then we have to ask why Allah created Gay people in the first place, making life unfair for them. But again, there is a difference of opinion among Quran Only muslims, with quite a few who think Gay relationships are OK.

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11. (why create humans in the first place?)
All knowledge is with Allah.
verse from chapter 2 verse 30 of the Quran:
Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not."

Allah effectively decided not to answer the angel's questions. Like I said, probably because there may not be an answer?

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12.why did Allah have to create anything? it's a bit hard to answer this question.. even the angels probably don't know. Allah is free of needs. let's study the Quran more. you, me, and the whole of man. let's read.

Sure.

10
General Issues / Questions / Re: Am I still a Muslim?
« on: November 29, 2012, 07:29:42 PM »
I reserve my right to remain silent on that particular topic.

Goodnight!

Ok, fine!

Goodnight, 2:30 am here, need some sleep...

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