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Messages - Abdul-Hadi

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1
General Issues / Questions / Re: THE TRUE QURANIC SHAHADA
« on: January 16, 2016, 09:06:52 AM »
Greetings and Peace, all  :group:

http://www.free-minds.org/true-testimony

tldr version: the "popular" Shahada isn't found in AQ, mentions a Prophet (peace to them all) alongside ALLAH, bears witness to something that wasn't personally witnessed, and promotes one Prophet above other Prophets.

Possible alternative, should one desire a Shahada (not a requirement found in AQ):

2:131 When his Lord said to him: "Submit," he said: "I submit to the Lord of the worlds."

May ALLAH see fit to Guide all seekers.

 :peace:

~Abdul-Hadi

2
Greetings and Peace, all  :group:

It is intriguing so far. Once it has all been presented, it can be considered better. True gold fears no fire.

ALLAH knows best.

 :peace:

~Abdul-Hadi

3
Greetings and Peace, all  :group:

My comments are in red for easy reading.

Abdul-Hadi, whether you do not fear Allah?

My relationship with the Almighty is not in question, nor is it your place to ask of it.

Do you want to play verses of the Qur'an to defend homosexual act while it is clear that Allah does not approve it?

I pay careful attention to the Qur'an and don't knowingly take things out of context. Please explain how you have taken the leap from "I disapprove of homosexual acts" to "...it is clear that Allah does not approve it."

Even thread starter (kenybanez) does not deny that it is forbidden.

I use my own best reasoning. He could be either correct or incorrect or some mix of the above, but that is between him and ALLAH.

Kenybanez, I suggest you to be careful with the people who're trying to mask the truth.

I agree.  ;) Beware of people with base motives, preconceived notions, and especially of any who would attribute lies to ALLAH.

May Allah protect you from evil, and please learn the truth from Allah, I believe that Allah is the Best Teacher.


Proof??

Do you even have reliable source to know the correct time/age when the people of Lot existed and where they actually located?

Read Genesis 18 & 19. Using basic math, the date of the destruction of the People of Lot can be derived. It was around 1953 BCE.

Mind you that I don't accept information from wikipedia or historical books as reliable proofs.

Since the brainwashers can even spread the silly lie that the earth is a globle, then it's very possible that those evil people could also falsify many other information.

Take notice of the punishment for the people of Noah, I think most likely there were children of the unbelievers who drowned as well, and I think verse 71:27 could give a hint.

So, the women and children among the people of Lot were destroyed because they were homosexual, or because they were unbelievers?

About the adult women who were destroyed, I think that is because they were among those who did not care to correct the wrongdoings committed by their people, maybe the wife of Lot could be the example.

Maybe...maybe not. Conjecture. Better to stick to what is known, right?  :)



For those who fond to defend homosexual acts & the perpetrators, remember these:

5:79
They used not to prevent one another from wrongdoing that they did. How wretched was that which they were doing.

4:109
Here you are - those who argue on their behalf in (this) worldly life - but who will argue with ALLAH for them on the Day of Judgment, or who will (then) be their defender?

Thank you for sharing the beautiful Knowledge of the Qur'an. Please take into consideration the totality of the Knowledge.

2:256 There is no compulsion in the system; the proper way has been clarified from the wrong way. Whoever rejects evil, and believes in GOD, indeed he has taken grasp of the strongest hold that will never break. GOD is Hearer, Knower.

4:135 O you who believe, stand with justice as witnesses to GOD, even if against yourselves, or the parents or the relatives. Even if he be rich or poor, GOD is more worthy of them, so do not follow desire into being unjust. And if you twist or turn away, then GOD is Expert over what you do.

6:21 And who is more wicked than he who invents lies about GOD, or denies His revelations! The wicked will never succeed.

16:116 And do not say, as to what your tongues falsely describe: "This is lawful, and that is forbidden;" that you seek to invent lies about GOD. Those who invent lies about GOD will not succeed.

39:18 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom GOD has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.

41:33 And who is better in saying than he who invites to GOD, and does good works, and says: "I am one of those who have submitted."


I find no evidence that homosexual acts are disallowed. Live according to your best understanding, and let others live according to their best understanding--or attempt to bar others from the deen, compel others to live according to your understanding, and generally be unjust. Which sounds like the proper behavior?

ALLAH knows best.

 :peace:

~Abdul-Hadi

4
Greetings and Peace, all  :group:

P1. G-D does NOT approve of fahisheh

P2. A male approaching another male (sexually) is a 'fahisheh' (27:54-55, 7:80-81)

Ergo. G-D does NOT approve of homosexuality.

7:80   And Lot, he said to his people: "Do you commit immorality such as none of those of the worlds had done before?"

7:81   "You are approaching the men out of desire instead of the women! Indeed, you are a transgressing people."

27:54   And Lot, when he said to his people: "Why do you commit immorality when you can clearly see?"

27:55   "You are approaching the men out of desire instead of the women! Indeed, you are an ignorant people."


Homosexuality is the attraction, whether acted upon or not, towards the same sex. Homosexual acts are different from homosexuality.

If the immorality in 7:80 was homosexuality/homosexual acts, such things would not have existed before within a civilization. But they DID exist within civilization, more than 1,000 years before the people of Lot. In less organized society, they existed for over 10,000 years before the people of Lot. The people of Lot weren't destroyed for homosexuality or homosexual acts.

Approaching people out of desire (lust) is immorality. The fact that men were approaching men out of lust was a detail compared to the immorality of lust.

Even so, what ~else~ did the people of Lot do?

29:28   And Lot, when he said to his people: "You commit an immorality that no others in the world have done before!"
29:29   "You approach the males, and you sever the way, and you bring all vice into your place." But the only response from his people was to say: "Bring us the retribution of GOD, if you are being truthful!"


There is also the issue of women and children among the people of Lot being destroyed alongside the men. Were they likewise destroyed for homosexual activity?

6:164 Say: "Shall I seek other than GOD as a Lord when He is the Lord of everything?" And every soul earns what is for it, and none will carry the burden of another. Then to your Lord is your return and He will inform you of what you disputed in.

May ALLAH see fit to guide all seekers.

 :peace:

~Abdul-Hadi

5
Greetings and Peace, all   :group:

@kenybanez  :welcome:

Usually when people say that homosexual acts are forbidden, they point to the people of Lot. Regarding the people of Lot committing lewdness not done before...

Homosexuality has been found depicted in cave paintings that are dated to be around 12,000 years old.

Further, physical evidence remains of homosexuality in Mesopotamia around 5,000 years ago; note that this is over a thousand years before the people of Lot were destroyed (circa 1953 BCE).

Also, homosexual acts are found all throughout nature. It is interesting that such an "unnatural" act is in fact, quite natural and commonplace.

2:26 GOD does not shy away from putting forth the example of a mosquito, or anything above it. As for those who believe, they know that it is the truth from their Lord. As for the rejecters, they say: "What does GOD intend with this example?" He strays many by it, and He guides many by it; but He only strays by it the wicked.

67:3 He created seven heavens in layers. You do not see any imperfection in the creation by the Almighty. Keep looking; do you see any flaw?


Homosexuality has been found in ALL known species that reproduce sexually--and yes, this includes mosquitos.

http://www.biolbull.org/content/149/2/365.short

http://rierc.org/social/paper162.pdf

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_behavior

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals

"... No species has been found in which homosexual behaviour has not been shown to exist, with the exception of species that never have sex at all, such as sea urchins and aphis. Moreover, a part of the animal kingdom is hermaphroditic, truly bisexual. For them, homosexuality is not an issue."

source: http://www.news-medical.net/news/2006/10/23/20718.aspx

For in depth study, here is a link to a book that details many of these homosexual animals:

http://www.amazon.com/Biological-Exuberance-Homosexuality-Diversity-Stonewall/dp/031225377X

Scientific consensus is that homosexuality is normal.

"The longstanding consensus of the behavioral and social sciences and the health and mental health professions is that homosexuality per se is a normal and positive variation of human sexual orientation" (Bell, Weinberg & Hammersmith, 1981; Bullough, 1976; Ford & Beach 1951 ; Kinsey, Pomeroy, & Martin, 1948; Kinsey, Pomeroy, Martin, & Gebhard, 1953 ).

http://www.apa.org/about/governance/council/policy/sexual-orientation.aspx

39:18 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom GOD has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.

Homosexuality is either natural (the fact that it is prevalent in ALL sexual species supports this argument), or it is some form of disorder.  If it is natural, there is no problem.  If it is some form of disorder (peer reviewed citation please?), please consider 48:17.

48:17 There is no burden on the blind, nor is there any burden on the cripple, nor is there any burden on the sick. And whoever obeys GOD and His messenger, He will admit them into gardens with rivers flowing beneath them; and whoever turns away, He will punish him with a painful retribution.

Homosexuality is either allowed or not allowed. If it is not allowed, it is clearly and directly stated. If it is allowed (that is to say, not prohibited), it is up to individual judgment. Unless homosexuality can be shown to be clearly prohibited, individual judgment should not be substituted for the instructions of ALLAH.

Where does the Qur'an state that homosexuality is a sin? Where is anything else forbidden indirectly? AQ is fully detailed, and ALLAH is direct with instructions, including prohibitions and restrictions.

If a person feels that it is approaching lewdness, then that person, being responsible for themself, should avoid it.  That's it--there is no decree against homosexuality.


4:22 And do not marry who your fathers had married from the women, except what has already been done. It is a lewdness, and an abhorrence, and an evil path.

4:23 Forbidden for you are your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and the sisters of your father, and the sisters of your mother, and the daughters of your brother, and the daughters of your sister, and your foster mothers who suckled you, and your sisters from suckling, and the mothers of your women, and your step-daughters who are in your lodgings from your women with whom you have already consummated the marriage; if you have not consummated the marriage then there is no sin upon you; and those who were in wedlock with your sons who are from your seed, and that you join between two sisters except what has already been done. GOD is Forgiving, Merciful.

4:24 And the independent from the women, except those maintained by your oaths; the book of GOD over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be independent, not for illicit sex. As for those whom you have already had joy with, then you shall give them their dowries as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree on after the obligation. GOD is Knowledgeable, Wise.

4:25 And whoever of you cannot afford to marry the independent female believers, then from those maintained by your oaths of the believing young women. And GOD is more aware of your faith, some of you to each other. You shall marry them with the permission of their parents and give them their dowries in kindness; to be independent, not for illicit sex or taking lovers. When they become independent, then any of them who come with lewdness shall have half of what is the punishment for those independent. This is for those who are concerned about deviating from among you. But if you are patient it is better for you, and GOD is Forgiver, Merciful.


I'll (re)post an argument below:

Acknowledge that AQ is not ridiculous.

Acknowledge that physical evidence is not ridiculous.

Refute that ALLAH created people differently, as is stated in AQ 30:22.

Refute that ALLAH gave us signs in nature, as is stated in AQ 2:26 and 2:164.

Refute that ALLAH created homosexual animals, as are found in nature.

Refute that AQ 29:29 lists reasons aside from male homosexuality that the people of Lot might have been destroyed.

Refute that the women among the people of Lot were innocent of male-male sex.

Refute that women and children among the people of Lot were destroyed alongside the men among the people of Lot.

Refute that there is no compulsion in the Deen, as is stated in AQ 2:256.

Refute that homosexuality is depicted in cave paintings that physically exist that have been dated to be around 12,000 years old.

Refute that homosexuality existed at least 5,000 years ago among humans in Mesopotamia, as is found among physical existing evidence.

Refute that the people of Lot were destroyed around 1953 BCE.

Refute that circa 3000 BCE is before 1953 BCE.

Refute that over a thousand years span the time between the recorded homosexual acts in Mesopotamia and the time that the people of Lot were destroyed.

Refute that AQ 7:80 refers to lewdness "such as none of the worlds had done before."

Acknowledge that no person alive was present among the people of Lot.

Refute that AQ 17:36 states not to uphold what one has no knowledge of.

Acknowledge that physical evidence can comprise knowledge.

Acknowledge that knowledge is better than conjecture.

Refute that AQ 10:59 and 16:116 state that it is wrong to forbid what ALLAH has not forbidden, that doing so is a lie, and that those who invent lies about ALLAH will not succeed.

In any case, I'm pretty sure that all can agree that promiscuity and acting on unbridled lust fall within the understanding of what is prohibited--homosexuality/bisexuality is not a "blank check" to indulge in what is prohibited.

However, dislike of homosexuality/homosexual acts is not a blank check to be ugly to other people, either.

It could be that homosexual acts are a minor offence--but I can't make this claim.  Even so:

23:62 And We do not burden a soul except with what it can bear. And We have a record that speaks with the truth, they will not be wronged.

53:32 They avoid major sins and lewdness, except for minor offences. Your Lord is with vast forgiveness. He has been fully aware of you since He initiated you from the earth, and while you were embryos in the wombs of your mothers. Therefore, do not ascribe purity to yourselves; He is fully aware of the righteous.


I hope this information is helpful to others.

ALLAH knows best.

 :peace:

~Abdul-Hadi

6
General Issues / Questions / Re: Are Non Quranists considered Kafir/Mushriks
« on: September 20, 2014, 07:34:15 PM »
Greetings and Peace, all  :group:

Salam,

How the Quranists categorize the Non-Quranists, are they Kuffar/Mushrikoon?

I don't subscribe to the title "Quranist," but the short answer is that there are monotheists and non-monotheists...and even those that are not currently monotheists can turn to monotheism ISA.

10:109 And follow what is being inspired to you and be patient until GOD judges. And He is the best of judges.


ALLAH knows best.

 :peace:

~Abdul-Hadi

7
Greetings and Peace, all  :group:

Salamun Alaikum.

Quran clearly rules out calling others besides Allah (7:194 is an example)... but what does calling someone other than Allah mean?

A. Praying to someone other than Allah;
B. Calling someone to wish peace/blessings for him;
C. Praying to Allah for someone else;
D. ALL of the above.

I believe it is only A. If B is also unacceptable - then our everyday exchange of salam / greetings with each other becomes unacceptable. If C is unacceptable - how come Quran recommend to pray for the parents etc.

If there are contrary opinions, please discuss with logic.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

If (B) occurs in prayer (or what is intended as prayer), then it would fall under the restrictions of (A). There is also a potential issue if a person takes it to be obligatory in the Deen to do something that is *not* obligatory (such as calling for peace to another)--isn't that just another way of taking partners? It wouldn't matter if it was hopping on one foot during prayer--if a person takes it to be obligatory without authority (and there is no Authority besides the Almighty) then it is shirk.

Is it recommended that we pray for others?

60:4 There has been a good example set for you by Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people: "We are innocent from you and what you serve besides GOD. We have rejected you, and it appears that there shall be animosity and hatred between us and you until you believe in GOD alone." Except for the saying of Abraham to his father: "I will ask forgiveness for you, but I do not possess any power to protect you from GOD." "Our Lord, we have put our trust in You, and we turn to You, and to You is the final destiny."

ALLAH knows best.

 :peace:

~Abdul-Hadi

8
Introduce Yourself / Re: Hello Everyone
« on: September 10, 2014, 06:40:08 PM »
Greetings and Peace, all  :group:

@Rama:  :welcome:

All problems have solutions, ISA. Talk with your loved ones, and consider issues in the light of time--if they will be important in 5 years, 50 years, and 500 years.

May ALLAH see fit to Guide all seekers.

 :peace:

~Abdul-Hadi

9
Greetings and Peace, all  :group:

There is a simple explanation. Look at the word that is often translated as "spouse." It appears that "mate" or "pair" is a better translation, and these are gender neutral. Plants and livestock don't have spouses, and the same word root is used. The use of the word "their" in 70:30 changes azwājan into azwājihim; the meaning is unchanged. A quick example:

2:6 These are the ones guided by their Lord [rabbihim], and these are the successful ones.

Notice how the word rabbi is modified into rabbihim by the use of "their?" In this same way, azwājan is modified into azwājihim.

Also, based on 4:25, same-sex marriage is permitted because it is beyond what is prohibited; it is indeed possible for same-sex people to be married/spouses--so even ~if~ 70:30 refers solely to spouses, it does not exclude homosexuals.

Peace All.

Translate this summary from Qoran and you have your answer folks?:


70:29
وَالَّذينَ هُم لِفُروجِهِم حٰفِظونَ
70:30
إِلّا عَلىٰ أَزوٰجِهِم أَو ما مَلَكَت أَيمٰنُهُم فَإِنَّهُم غَيرُ مَلومينَ

70:31
فَمَنِ ابتَغىٰ وَراءَ ذٰلِكَ فَأُولٰئِكَ هُمُ العادونَ


GOD bless you all.
Peace.

4:25 And the independent from the women, except those maintained by your oaths; the book of GOD over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be independent, not for illicit sex. As for those whom you have already had joy with, then you shall give them their dowries as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree on after the obligation. GOD is Knowledgeable, Wise.

6:143 Eight in [azwājin]: from the lambs two, and from the goats two. Say: "Is it the two males that He forbade or the two females, or what the wombs of the two females bore? Inform me if you are truthful!"

20:53 The One who made for you the earth habitable and He made ways for you in it, and He brought down water from the sky, so We brought out with it [azwājan] of vegetation of all types.

35:11 And GOD created you from dust, then from a seed, then He made you into [azwājan]. And no female becomes pregnant, nor gives birth, without His knowledge. Nor does anyone have his life extended, or his life is shortened, except in a record. This is easy for GOD.

42:11 Initiator of the heavens and the earth. He created for you from among yourselves [azwājan], and also [azwājan] for the livestock so they may multiply. There is nothing that equals Him. He is the Hearer, the Seer.

70:29 And those who keep covered their private parts.
70:30 Except around [azwājihim] or those maintained by their oaths, there is no blame.
70:31 Whoever seeks anything beyond this, they are the transgressors.

78:8 And We created you in [azwājan]?


ALLAH knows best.

 :peace:

~Abdul-Hadi

10
Greetings and Peace, all  :group:

My comments are in red.

Peace Abdul-Hadi,

<snip>

Adultery is, however, by state law in the Western world not regarded as a crime, so there is no way you can legally punish someone for doing adultery. It was decriminalized many years ago in most developed countries. Thus punishing someone for adultery is literally taking the law into your own hands, which is a crime in itself. Adultery is hence an immoral action and a shame, but not on criminal level so that you can punish someone. Adultery is still considered a very foul and distasteful act and the person is often punished indirectly by being regarded a person of low standard by people who have not fallen away from God completely.

Adultery is no longer criminalized under state law, however...in some states, an aggrieved spouse can sue for alienation of affection. Also, under the UCMJ (military), adultery is still criminal.

<snip>

But please do not involve punishments for immorality and zina into this discussion. It is just that path Satan wants us to take, to bring the law into our own hands because we detest this phenomenon with homosexuality. So many women have been stoned to death already in history and now it is the gays' turn?

The actual word used means immorality (not homosexuality), but what I was trying to convey was without 4 witnesses, a "righteous"  ::) person can't apply lashes or any other punishment. There is not much chance of having 4 witnesses.

Be whole

@recite: I agree that we should not make claims that aren't true; the Qur'an does not state that homosexual acts are okay, so we should not say that the Qur'an states that. On the other hand, the Qur'an does not state the opposite. In any case, even if homosexual acts are allowed, this does not mean that promiscuity or lustful acts are encouraged.

May ALLAH see fit to Guide all seekers.

 :peace:

~Abdul-Hadi

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