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Messages - Abdul-Hadi

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1
General Issues / Questions / Re: Some questions by a 'Sunni'
« on: May 12, 2014, 02:22:17 pm »
Greetings and Peace, all  :group:

Salam, Brother!

Thank you! May Allah bless you!

Can you please comment on this if you can:

Then follow your advice and reject
all knowledge of the Arabic language which Quran needs in order for people to understand it.
This is because language is preserved in lexicons,dictionaries,
writings,and memories all transmitted and authored by men.
Likewise you must reject the very
"history" which caused you to come to your conclusions,for it too
is "merely the sayings, interpretations, and teaching of men",-lastly you must reject all of
your own conclusions from Quran.
Since your own conclusions are merely sayings,interpretations and teaching from yourself- a fallible man".


It is understood from reading AQ that AQ contains all that is needed for the Deen. If one wants to cook, pick up a cookbook--it has nothing to do with the Deen, and there is no problem in reading the cookbook, ISA. There *are* serious issues in confusing the cookbook with the Deen. Not everything on earth pertains to the Deen.

The point about language was addressed in the first few sentences...the part mentioning that words and word roots are used in multiple places in AQ, and can be used to verify meanings. Did the Almighty promise to protect extra-Qur'anic hadith and state that there is no contradiction in them?  :hmm

I have no interest in history (as it applies to the Deen) that is not stated in AQ.

17:36 And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and heart, all these you are responsible for.

Consider what a person claims to witness in mainstream Islam. Contrast what AQ has to say about witnessing:

28:44 And you were not on the western slope when We decreed the command to Moses. You were not a witness.

How one chooses to live is an individual matter. What one earns for their choices is also an individual responsibility.

6:116 And if you obey most of those on the earth they will lead you away from the path of GOD; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.


Only the Almighty knows who did follow, who does follow, and who will follow the Guidance. For those that choose not to follow Guidance, for those that choose popularity/tradition/conformity instead: "Enjoy this life."

11:122 "And wait, for we are also waiting."

ALLAH knows best.

 :peace:

~Abdul-Hadi

2
General Issues / Questions / Re: Some questions by a 'Sunni'
« on: May 11, 2014, 01:24:07 pm »
Greetings and Peace, all  :group:

I find the Guidance to be timeless; it doesn't matter when the Qur'an was revealed...it doesn't influence the Deen one whit. The Protection of the Almighty is the best protection, and the Almighty Protects the Qur'an. Meanings of words can and do change, fortunately, most all of the words (or their roots) are found in different places in AQ. This means that AQ itself can be used to verify meanings. In terms of intent:

2:26 GOD does not shy away from putting forth the example of a mosquito, or anything above it. As for those who believe, they know that it is the truth from their Lord. As for the rejecters, they say: "What does GOD intend with this example?" He strays many by it, and He guides many by it; but He only strays by it the wicked.

6:115 And the word of your Lord has been completed with truth and justice; there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.

39:18 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom GOD has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.

44:58 We have thus made it easy in your language, perhaps they may take heed.


Having answered the above questions, I would pose a few to those who follow tradition.

If you truly take the Guidance of the Qur'an over extra-Qur'anic hadith, how do you reconcile following:

6:114  "Shall I seek other than GOD as a judge when He has sent down to you the Book fully detailed?" Those to whom We have given the Book know it is sent down from your Lord with the truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.

6:115  And the word of your Lord has been completed with truth and justice; there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.

7:185 Have they not looked at the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that GOD has created? Perhaps their time is drawing near; so in which narrative [ḥadīthin]  after this one will they believe?

16:89  And the Day We send to every nation a witness against them from themselves, and We have brought you as a witness against these. And We have sent down to you the Book as a clarification for all things, and a guidance  and a mercy and good tidings to those who have submitted.

25:30 And the messenger said: "My Lord, my people have deserted this Qur'an."

29:51 Is it not enough for them that We have sent down to you the Book that is being recited to them? In that is a mercy and a reminder for people who believe.

[/b]31:6  And from the people, there are those who will purchase a baseless narrative [lahwa l-ḥadīthi] with which to mislead from the path of GOD without knowledge, and to make it a mockery. These will have a humiliating retribution.


To recap: the Qur'an states that it is complete, fully detailed, a clarification for all things, without contradiction, without change in meaning, and enough for a believer. Any "Yes, but..." statements fall flat. Those who follow extra-Qur'anic hadith follow the ways of men instead of Guidance.

2:170 And if they are told: "Follow what GOD has sent down," they say: "No, we will follow what we found our fathers doing!" What if their fathers did not comprehend anything and were not guided?

To follow extra-Qur'anic hadith, one must first reject the Qur'an.

May ALLAH see fit to Guide all seekers.

 :peace:

~Abdul-Hadi

3
Peace Abdul-Hadi,

As you know context is very important when it comes to understanding the Quran, as I mentioned earlier,
the surah you quoted is titled "The Women" This is the context, It is not titled homosexuals.  The ayat 4/24
if read with preceding and succeeding verses becomes abundantly clear unless the reader decides for
personal reasons to alter their meaning.

God bless

   :peace:   

The problem that I have with using titles to define the content is that this is not done with all of the titles. Does "The Cow" give special meaning to the 2nd surah--or "The Bee" (which is mentioned exactly once in surah 16)?  :hmm There is much in surah 4 that does not pertain to women exclusively, look at 4:16 and 4:29 for instance. A title is NOT a context, context is better provided by the surrounding ayahs.

I find the immediate context to be of marriage and relationships, not women. Bear in mind that many same sex relationships are between women. Going along with the understanding that the context of surah 4 is women should also give the understanding that same sex relationships between women are clearly allowed.

Either same sex relationships are "what is beyond this," or they are not. It seems clear that they *are* "what is beyond this," especially if they aren't addressed.

ALLAH knows best.

 :peace:

~Abdul-Hadi

4
Introduce Yourself / Re: Hello
« on: May 05, 2014, 10:09:42 am »
Greetings and Peace, all  :group:

@Mehmet_93:  :welcome:

Have you had a chance to read any of the articles on the main page? Some of them are thought provoking. ISA we'll see you in the forums.

May the Lord bless you and keep you.
May the Lord make his face to shine upon you, and be gracious to you.
May the Lord lift up his countenance upon you, and give you peace.


 :peace:

~Abdul-Hadi



5
Introduce Yourself / Re: Salaam
« on: May 05, 2014, 10:05:52 am »
Greetings and Peace, all  :group:

@MohammedNabi:  :welcome:

I'm sure that there are some folks near you, but I'm not one of them. This site brings people from all over the world together. Edip Yuksel is on this site...shoot him a PM if you like.

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=490

Have you used sites such as Corpus Quran perchance? You can juxtapose Arabic words to verify meaning--very useful! There have been many discoveries. Islamawakened has a large number of translations, especially English, in one place. If you already have these resources, beg pardon.

http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp

http://www.islamawakened.com/index.php/qur-an


May ALLAH see fit to Guide all seekers.

 :peace:

~Abdul-Hadi

6
Greetings and Peace, all  :group:


You clearly have no knowledge of the Arabic, 4:24 is talking about Women, from the start of the verse, all the way to the end.. So the answer is Yes--a homosexual relationship is beyond this.


Thank you for clarifying. Homosexual relationships are beyond what is mentioned, and beyond what is mentioned is permitted. What do you know, the Arabic *IS* clear and easy to understand.  :)

4:24 And the independent from the women, except those maintained by your oaths; the book of GOD over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be independent, not for illicit sex. As for those whom you have already had joy with, then you shall give them their dowries as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree on after the obligation. GOD is Knowledgeable, Wise.

ALLAH knows best.

 :peace:

~Abdul-Hadi

7
Greetings and Peace, all  :group:

Peace Abdul-Hadi,

Commenting inside the box does not make your reply easier to read, please comment outside of the box
if possible.

Are you saying that 4/24 makes homosexual marriage legal?   :nope:

From you:

This applies to women, no mention is made of men. If you want to split hairs, two men or two women can't even have sex together--call it what you will, but it isn't ~really~ sex in a biological sense.

If not sex, what do you call it.

By the way, The surah you quote is "The Women".

The context is such:

[4:23] Prohibited for you (in marriage) are your mothers, your daughters, your sisters, the sisters of your fathers, the sisters of your mothers, the daughters of your brother, the daughters of your sister, your nursing mothers, the girls who nursed from the same woman as you, the mothers of your wives, the daughters of your wives with whom you have consummated the marriage—if the marriage has not been consummated, you may marry the daughter. Also prohibited for you are the women who were married to your genetic sons. Also, you shall not be married to two sisters at the same time—but do not break up existing marriages. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

 
[4:24] Also prohibited are the women who are already married, unless they flee their disbelieving husbands who are at war with you. These are GOD's commandments to you. All other categories are permitted for you in marriage, so long as you pay them their due dowries. You shall maintain your morality, by not committing adultery. Thus, whoever you like among them, you shall pay them the dowry decreed for them. You commit no error by mutually agreeing to any adjustments to the dowry. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.

[4:25] Those among you who cannot afford to marry free believing women, may marry believing slave women. GOD knows best about your belief, and you are equal to one another, as far as belief is concerned. You shall obtain permission from their guardians before you marry them, and pay them their due dowry equitably. They shall maintain moral behavior, by not committing adultery, or having secret lovers. Once they are freed through marriage, if they commit adultery, their punishment shall be half of that for the free women. Marrying a slave shall be a last resort for those unable to wait. To be patient is better for you. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.



God bless

   :peace:

I would call them sexual acts, but not sex.

It is REALLY reaching to claim that a title modifies the contents. In law, titles of codes are for convenience only and do not modify the codes. Look at the various titles in AQ...do they all likewise modify the contents?

http://www.quranbrowser.com/html/chapter_names.html

I find nothing in 4:23-4:25 that prevents homosexual relationships.

Anyone who prevents two people from getting married seems to be encouraging adultery. I'd recommend making sure that one is on the firmest of grounds (NOT shaky tradition) before interfering between two mates.

From the perspective of fairness, it is flat wrong for a government to prefer heterosexual mates to homosexual mates. Is there to be equality for all, or are some people created more equally than others? Should we stand for fairness, or for bias?

ALLAH knows best.

 :peace:

~Abdul-Hadi

8
Greetings and Peace, all  :group:

This also comes to mind:

60:4 There has been a good example set for you by Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people: "We are innocent from you and what you serve besides GOD. We have rejected you, and it appears that there shall be animosity and hatred between us and you until you believe in GOD alone." Except for the saying of Abraham to his father: "I will ask forgiveness for you, but I do not possess any power to protect you from GOD." "Our Lord, we have put our trust in You, and we turn to You, and to You is the final destiny."

If it is not a good example, it indicates to me an example of what NOT to do. Don't ask for forgiveness for others is my take.

ALLAH knows best.

 :peace:

~Abdul-Hadi

9
Greetings and Peace, all  :group:

My comments are in red for easy reading.




1) Lot was speaking to his people as a group & a community, not just isolated cases of homo-sexual-intimacy.

Great! This means this example is NOT a valid reason to bother individuals.

This would be the reason why Lot states "No one has ever done before"..... We do not know of a community, before Lot's people, in the Quran that practiced widespread homosexual intimacy.

Maybe not in the Qur'an, but such societies have existed. Mesopotamia comes to mind...

Your women are like a Fruit-bearing Crop. You may come to them (I.E Have sex with women), in anyway you want, so long as you maintain righteousness..." (2:223)

This applies to women, no mention is made of men. If you want to split hairs, two men or two women can't even have sex together--call it what you will, but it isn't ~really~ sex in a biological sense.

God created the anatomical penis that would produce sperm, and the only rightful place that sperm belongs is in the anatomical vagina. 

Actually, the penis does not produce sperm--you mean the testicles. The only "rightful place" is a matter of opinion. But are you arguing that men that don't produce sperm can have sexual relations with any willing participant, or that such people must cease all sexual relations? The argument that sexual acts revolve around sperm is ludicrous.

You need to be married in order to have sex, and there is no mention of Same sex marriage in the Quran

Maybe there ~is~ mention of same sex marriage in AQ. It would seem that many of the translations are skewed towards a traditional understanding rather than literally translated. For instance, the use of "spouse" instead of the more accurate "mates." I don't really see why the Qur'an would mention same-sex marriage anyway, because it has little to do with the Deen--that *is* what AQ is about, yes?

I state again,
3) God has specifically commanded us Laws about whom we can and whom we cannot marry, these laws cannot be understood without having a hetero-sex couple. If we superimpose 2 people from the same sex, these laws would be invalid, (e.g you cannot marry your mother or two sisters, but what about marrying your father or marrying two brothers  :! ) Same Sex Marriage would thus not work if we superimpose the Quranic Marriage laws on top, because the standard was always between men and women, and, anything beyond that standard is a transgress.

There is no mention of many things in AQ. We are told that we would hate to eat the flesh of our dead brother, but cannibalism is not specifically forbidden. I care little for traditional standards, that is like saying that one will follow what a father followed. We *are* told to avoid sin, what is evident and what is subtle, and that covers many extremes. I'm not sure that same sex incestuous marriage is/was/is likely to ever even be an issue, ISA! I call strawman on the same sex incest marriage argument.

Show me one piece of evidence of Marriage Contract (Nikaah, Zawaaj) is between two men or two women from the Quran.... can two brothers marry each other, or a brother and a father? what about two men from the same nursing mother, explain the mariage laws & prohibitions in 4:23

No need. Take a look at the connected 4:24...

Sincerely,
A concerned, chaste Individual.

Concerned?  :confused: Why be concerned about something very unlikely?

4:24 And the independent from the women, except those maintained by your oaths; the book of GOD over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be independent, not for illicit sex. As for those whom you have already had joy with, then you shall give them their dowries as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree on after the obligation. GOD is Knowledgeable, Wise. 

So, is a homosexual relationship beyond this, or not?  Yes or no, please.

23:5 And they keep covered their private parts.
23:6 Except around their mates, or those who are maintained by their oaths, they are free from blame.


http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341097#msg341097

May ALLAH see fit to Guide all seekers.

 :peace:

~Abdul-Hadi

10
Greetings and Peace, all  :group:

My comments are in red.

Peace Abdul-Hadi,

The people of lot rejected the messenger, as did those societies that were destroyed before and after him!
Sodomy was but one of the entrenched crimes committed by the people Lot.  Remember that there were
very few believers in the town.

Why do you choose to ignore this ayat?  Is it a mistranslation? If so please let us know.

[7:80-81] Lot said to his people, "You commit such an indecency; no one in the world has done it before!
"You practice sex with the men, instead of the women. Indeed, you are a transgressing people."


How can I ignore it and address it at the same time?  It is a glaring contradiction as translated. If it isn't a mistranslation, it is at least a poor one.

"No one in the world has done it before!" No one = NOT ONE. Existing physical evidence shows that homosexual acts long predate the people of Lot. Cave paintings over 10,000 years old depict it. There is also evidence that it was common in Mesopotamia circa 3000 BCE--over a thousand years before the people of Lot were destroyed (1953 BCE). Mesopotamia was a society, or "people." Also, a more accurate translation is probably:


'Will you commit lewdness such as no people in creation ever committed before you? For you come in lust to men in preference to women. No, you are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds'

To which I would comment that approaching anyone for lust is indecent. It is the approaching for lust that is a transgression, and the fact that it is men approaching men makes it incredulous.

Clue to what? no need being cryptic, please explain.

Did the women and children practice sex with the men instead of the women? Why were the women and children among the people of Lot destroyed along with the men? It is beyond reason to suppose that they were ALL transgressing in homosexual acts--something else was going on. Benefitting from highway robbery, perhaps?

29:29 "You sexually approach men, and you commit highway robbery, and you bring all vice to your society." But the only response from his people was to say: "Bring us the retribution of GOD, if you are being truthful!"

53:38 None can carry the burdens of another.

God bless

   :peace:

 

Let me put a few questions in sequence to the reader. For the sake of discussion, suppose that the people of Lot are being destroyed solely for homosexual acts:

Was the transgression of the people of Lot individual or communal?
If communal, how does this in any way impact individual acts, especially in the here and now?  :)
If individual, how is this reconciled with existing physical evidences that the same acts had taken place long before?  :hmm

If the questions aren't valid, it is hard to get good answers. Look at the evidences and then make an informed decision.

39:18 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom GOD has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.

I find nothing in the Qur'an that tells me that either homosexuality or homosexual acts in themselves are despised--and certainly nothing that tells me to treat other people differently based on their sexual preferences/orientation.

68:36 What is wrong with you, how do you judge?
68:37 Or do you have a book which you study?
68:38 In it, you can find what you wish?


ALLAH knows best.

 :peace:

~Abdul-Hadi

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