Messages

1

Science / Re: Day & Night Phenomenon described in the quran

« on: May 07, 2013, 07:09:53 AM »

Peace all,

The topic of this thread is "Day & Night Phenomenon described in the quran".

Other forum members expect to see a debate on this topic. They do not expect to waste their time trifling through banal and tedious ad hominem attacks.

Please stick to the topic of this thread and enrich the experience of other forum members by making a positive contribution.

2

General Issues / Questions / Re: Quranist combat kit

« on: May 03, 2013, 03:19:03 AM »

Peace Andantino,

As a Quran-alone community, we usually come up against the same questions from Sunni Muslims, as you correctly point out.

There are too many questions for me to recount here. Use the search function to find the topics you are interested in. You will find find that they have been discussed at great length in other threads.

3

General Issues / Questions / Re: The Qur’aan Cosmological Model - Delineation Of The Current universe.

« on: April 12, 2013, 07:03:42 AM »

Dear all,

While we would like to encourage healthy and productive debate, it seems that the current topic at hand digresses from the title of this thread, i.e., “The Qur’aan Cosmological Model - Delineation Of The Current universe” which was created by forum member al-amiyr.


Dear kylixguru,

Thank you for your participation in this thread.

Your ideas relating to the Creation Account are interesting, however, can I request that you create a new thread for the topic? This is in order to keep the forum’s organisation optimal.

Dear StopS,

We urge that you direct your efforts towards the content of debate, not the debate itself.

4

Introduce Yourself / Re: Another step forward...

« on: April 06, 2013, 07:22:19 AM »

Hello Peachy,

Your tolerance of others is a beautiful thing.

The forum is brighter for your presence.

Welcome.

5

Questions/Comments on the Quran / Re: The Forgery of Significations

« on: April 03, 2013, 04:28:53 PM »

Thank you all for your valued input and for your participation in this thread.

Peace Wakas,

I think you make a fair point. Do we define the Initials as words, or as letters? If the prior is true, then we should expect to see lexical entries for them. If the latter, then we shouldn’t understand them as forming sentences.

Peace Abdalquran,

Thank you for your reply.

I would like to reply with four points:

1. SarahY addresses this point well. Assuming all inherited lexicons have been fabricated to an extent that renders them beyond valid use, how else is one to understand the Arabic text of the Quran, with particular regard to syntactical and lexical rules?

2. Lexicons and grammars are derived from corpora. As I’m sure you will acknowledge, bodies of corpora can hardly be disregarded in linguistic analysis, and they are harder still to fabricate. This is why I can safely promote – with very little fear of corruption – the use of classical lexicons and grammars as reliable sources to become well-acquainted with Classical Arabic.

3. If one is not bound to the pre-set rules of the Classical Arabic tongue, then one can easily descend into seeing a reflection of one’s ego on every page of the Quran. That is to say, the Quran means whatever I want it to mean. Thus, if I am partial to the ideas of the Christian trinity, I can translate 112:1 as: “Say, He is God, three.” (سبحان الله أن يكون له ولد) I will then base this argument on the presumption that “أحد” used to mean “three”, that is before some twist in history conspired to supress its true meaning. There is no end to this rationale. In your view, is this defensible?

4. The inheritance of language differs dramatically from the inheritance of the narration of historical events. The narration of events can be readily fabricated, yet the language in which those fabrications are narrated is harder to invent, primarily because the fabricator wants his audience to receive his intended meaning, and to understand the fabrication. Again, languages are not forged, they naturally evolve.

Peace Mohammed/Joe,

Thank you for your detailed post. I appreciate its content and I fully acknowledge your sincerity.

You are right, we must seek knowledge from God with an open heart.

As for the Muqaṭṭa’āt, perhaps I will not agree with your understanding of them, but I will not challenge it for two reasons. The first, even though I have my own theories about the Muqaṭṭa’āt, I am in no better position than you to establish with certainty what they represent. The second, apart from the abjad, there are no rules in the Classical Arabic language that govern a list of orthographically joined letters that are phonetically disjointed.

Again I will stress, the issue at hand is not my ignorance and dubiousness of the purpose of the Muqaṭṭa’āt, but the denial of our near-certain knowledge of the Classical Arabic tongue.

Peace SarahY,

You make some good points. If one was to do away with the inherited language references, I think it is especially necessary to justify the replacement rules as those which supersede it. Not only is this, in my view, indefensible by default, but also paradoxically unattainable.

6

Questions/Comments on the Quran / Re: The Forgery of Significations

« on: April 02, 2013, 12:10:47 PM »

My confessed ignorance of the purpose of the Initials does not negate my certain knowledge of the Arabic language.

Thus, the Quran is perfectly understood without knowing what the Initials represent.

I use the words "invention" and "forgery" very intentionally for the following reason.

"Meaning is use." You will find this statement to be an axiom. The only way words acquire meanings is by their repetitive use. That is the very reason why you and I are communicating without having to invent meanings for the words that we are using in this discussion; because they already have well-established meanings. Hence, meaning is use.

Thus, if I was to use any word in a new way that no-one has used before, then I have effectively forged or invented a meaning. So, naturally, you would not receive my intended meaning.

A dictionary is a compilation of meanings.

And it behoves us to put them to use in the objective pursuit of Quranic truth.

7

General Issues / Questions / Re: Learning from modern jewish history....to go forward.

« on: April 02, 2013, 09:58:46 AM »

I think what JewishDude has set out above is a smart and perceptive strategy; one which is pragmatic and within probable reach.

I would like to make 3 points:

1. Structure. I have always associated a Quran-alone way of life with an unorganised and dispersed network of adherents. By "unorganised," I do not mean "lacking the skills of organisation," rather, I mean a lack of centralisation. This is primarily because we have no central religious figurehead. We study the Quran for ourselves, and we implement it for ourselves; hence a need for neither centralisation, nor congregation. As for propagation, I have always imagined each one of us playing their part to propagate the Quran's message; personally, this is what I have been doing for the past 10 years. I use appropriate circumstances and suitable opportunities in conversation to discuss the Quran's message with anyone. What we currently have is a sort of anarcho-Quranism, where the focus is on individual work; this form of organisation (or lack thereof) has its limits, and is inherently incapable of serving a community-level role.

2. Support. As our numbers increase, by the grace of God, we must begin to pay regard to the needs of new-comers whom will undoubtedly need support. Their needs, be it social or ideological, are, for the most part, only truly satisfied by community-level services. Not forgetting, that a pronounced and manifestly publicized community presence of a Quran-alone centre or support network, will surely arouse an investigation by curious minds about the Quran-alone way of life. Something similar has already been established by the Submitters of Tuscon, Arizona. They, along with Dr Khalifa, established United Submitters International. They currently have chapters in the States, London, Paris, Nigeria, and many others. I have attended one of their meetings and it focused solely on Quran study. I love those guys and I consider them my brethren; I felt a warm sense of belonging and brotherhood when I sat with them. But I think they lack a key element which JewishDude emphasised, alas, it is egalitarianism.

3. Scope. As JewishDude mentioned, egalitarianism is key. Inclusivity is the spirit of equality. I think most members of this forum, and Quran-alone people in general, are reasonably tolerant of even the most extreme views. We have God to thank for making us a "middle" community. In any community, being able to tolerate the disparity of beliefs, religious or otherwise, is key to the durability of co-operation and to the strength of unity, "E pluribus unum."

For the time being, our community exists in cyberspace. This website, and similar websites, offer support to new-comers and help us in our dialogue and in the exchange of our ideas. It has gone a long way to bring us all together into a sort of pseudo-community, for that I am thankful to the administrator's of this site, and I am ever thankful to God.

Perhaps we are still at the stage of infantile growth, and the flowering season has not yet come upon us, so we have found no reason to organise.

Still, perhaps in the coming years the demographics will change substantially, this thread is a heads-up for that time.

Thanks to Jewishdude for this thread, his input is greatly valued.

Usamah

8

Questions/Comments on the Quran / Re: A question regarding 6:162

« on: April 02, 2013, 05:47:17 AM »

Peace Everyone,

I can understand how frustrating it can be to find multiple renditions of the same word or sentence translated from the Quran to English. The disparity can seem curious.

My personal advice for those who are very curious: if you have the time, start a course in Arabic.

You don't have to attend any institution, and you don't have to pay a penny. All it takes is discipline.

You can simply teach yourself as I have. The process from beginner to advanced level, will take years. But it will be very gratifying in the end.

There are many free resources available online; books (as pdfs), audiobooks, podcasts, videos, etc..

Very, very worthwhile considering this.

9

Questions/Comments on the Quran / Re: Chapter 51 - Angels driving winds?

« on: April 02, 2013, 05:25:36 AM »

Yes, I think that's a fair analysis.

That would, of course, depend entirely on the perceived gender of the angels; if they are gendered at all.

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Questions/Comments on the Quran / Re: The Forgery of Significations

« on: April 02, 2013, 05:21:18 AM »

Peace uq,

So what are you saying exactly? Are you trying to say that God revealed the Q to Muhammad the nabiyy as his clear/easy personal guide, and decided to include a few sets of letters that "bear no intrinsic meaning"?

Mohammed Noh

Peace Mohammed Noh,

Yes.

Undoubtedly the prophet Muhammad would have recognized the Initials as letters belonging to his language, but did he know what function they fulfilled? That's open to debate.

lol Abang Noh...my point exactly.

No Arab can agree on the meaning of alif laam meem. Forget about alif laam ra, ha meem, ain seen qaf, noon or whatever. This FIRST aya shows us the mode of language the Quran uses. Instead of the cut and paste style meaning suitable to Western thought, it's more along the lines of zen koans which realisations are sudden and paradigm shifting.

Peace abdalquran,

Forgive me, I haven't understood, is the argument that due to our ignorance of the purpose of the Initials, we are at liberty to invent meanings for them? and indeed, for the entire text of the Quran?