Topics

1

General Issues / Questions / WithOUT GOD = WithIN GOD?? True or False?

« on: September 28, 2010, 10:56:11 AM »

Peace

NO one can exists without GOD ... taking in mind, all aspects and implications of the statement... therefore, is the statement below the same as the former...

NOTHING CAN EXIST WITHOUT GOD = EVERYTHING CAN EXIST WITHIN GOD

Share your thoughts!

2

Questions/Comments on the Quran / Could this be the valley of BAKKAH?

« on: September 22, 2010, 08:15:35 AM »

Peace

Where is the Valley of Bakkah mentioned in Quran and earlier scriptures?

4 Blessed are they that dwell in thy house: they will be still praising thee. Selah.
5 Blessed is the man whose strength is in thee; in whose heart are the ways of them.
6 Who passing through the valley of Baca make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools.
—Bible, Psalm 84, verses 4 - 6

96 The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka: Full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beings:
97 In it are Signs Manifest; (for example), the Station of Abraham; whoever enters it attains security; Pilgrimage thereto is a duty men owe to Allah,- those who can afford the journey; but if any deny faith, Allah stands not in need of any of His creatures.
—Qur'an, sura 3 (Al-i-Imran), ayat 96-9

As they pass through the Valley of Baca,
—Bible, Psalm 84, verse 6

Could the region described in the link below the famous Valley of Bakkah?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beqaa_Valley

Share your thoughts.

3

Questions/Comments on the Quran / Do the FRUITS mentioned in the Quran GROW in Makkah or immediate regions?

« on: September 22, 2010, 07:55:30 AM »

Peace,

We all know that the Quran was mainly directed to the arab audience of Muhammad [pbuh], therefore most of the examples cited in the Quran should have been perceivable/observable by the audience... For example, if a particular fruit is mentioned, the people should not be looking at one another thinking what kind of fruit it is.. but they should already have the knowledge and awareness regarding the fruit in question.  Since it is believed that Muhammad[pbuh] lived in Makkah, then switched to Medina, then back to Makkah....  It is safe to assume that the fruits mentioned in Quran must grow well in these 2 regions...

Here is the list of fruits mentioned in The Quran:

1. Grapes
2. Dates
3. Pomegranate
4. Fig
5. Olive

Can anyone of you confirm that all these fruits are grown in Makkah?  Or can shed more information regarding the issue...

Thank you

4

General Issues / Questions / Why Germans?

« on: September 21, 2010, 01:52:19 PM »

Peace

I wonder why we find the most Quran research works, most of which are great, done by Germans...  What relates these Germans to the Quran/Arabs more than other nations?  As example, the latest research on the oldest Quranic manuscripts, those of Sana, were carried out by German Gerard Puinn if I am not mistaken..

I think, for research purposes, the next language to learn after arabic should be german... in order to access some of the most advanced research done on quran by German researchers.

5

Discuss Latest News/Events / Great Moon and Star alignment as seen tonight in the Mauritian sky. Have a look

« on: September 11, 2010, 07:39:09 AM »

Post your pics if you have caught this event... If you have more info.. post them as well.

6

Sunni/Shia Religion / Each of his argument goes to trash !! [Debate Resource]

« on: August 27, 2010, 01:11:05 PM »

SALAAM ALL BROTHERS AND SISTERS.  I HAD THIS DEBATE WITH A HADITHS UPHOLDER RECENTLY AND I PERSONALLY THINK IT WAS VERY INTERESTING.  IF YOU HAVE TIME YOU CAN READ THROUGH IT AND INSHA ALLAH YOU CAN USE SOME INFORMATION AS YOUR DEBATE RESOURCE.  THIS DISCUSSION OCCURRED ON FACEBOOK.  HOPE YOU WILL ENJOY AND BENEFIT FROM IT.

===================================================================

Brother 1: I hope this will be the last time I have to make myself clear of the fact that I do not spurn Ahadith literature as a whole.

Moreover, please bear in mind this specific difference when maintaining a dialogue here.
Tuesday at 3:16am · Like

Staunch Sunni Guy: Please clarify what criteria you use to maintain your position. Also, please clarify if you agree with the Quranites that the last two verses of Sura 9 ( 128 and 129) were put in by the devil only to have been thrown out by his majesty Rashad Khalifa.
Wednesday at 7:12pm · Like

WayFinder: Salaam Brother Amin

I just want to correct a misconception in your statement regarding removal of 2 verses. You have ascribed this beliefs to all the quranists in general wheareas there are only a slight percent of quran followers who ascribe to this ideology and they are those who follow Rashad Khalifa and his teachings. The belief of 2 fake verses is only for rashad khalifa whereas most of the rest of the quran alone people(the majority) believe the quran to be complete and contain no fake verses whatsoever.

Thank you
Wednesday at 7:21pm · Like ·  1 person ·

Staunch Sunni Guy: wa alaikum as salam.

Thank you. I am aware of the differences. My intention was to get Adam's position clarified. Anyhow, how do you obey the prophet as commanded by Allah, 'Obey Allah and obey the Messenger', 'Whoever obeys the Messener, obeys Allah'?
Wednesday at 8:21pm · Like

WayFinder: The same question everytime...

The fact is that, the Quran heavily stresses on following the messenger and not a single time it orders us to follow Muhammad(pbuh). Heavy stress is being laid on the messengership because of the high value of the message(hence messenger) which he delivers. The duty of the messenger is only to deliver the message. If we want to follow the messenger, we need to follow his message which he himself was the first one to follow.

Obey Allah and Obey messenger is usually regarded as 2 separate obediences that is:

Obey Allah = Quran
Obey Messenger = Hadith

The fallacy in this logic is that, not anytime in the the two (Allah/messenger) is regarded as 2 separate instances but they are regarded as one... to such an extent that, the Quran says, 'if you obey the messenger, you have obeyed God' therefore implying the God spoke to us directly through the mouth of the messenger... When the messenger was delivering the message, it was God talking through his mouth... This is why his message (word of God) is of great importance and should be followed closely as we will be directly obeying God through His Words.

There is no evidence so far to prove that Muhammad received anything else except the Quran as revelation.... And the Quran is straight and clear on this issue.... Muhammad (pbuh) even testified that he received Only the quran and nothing else... whereas hadiths quotesm Muhammad saying he received quran and something similar to it implying to hadiths... Therefore according to hadiths, Muhammad received 2 things... Now it is up for the people to make up their mind what they really want to follow... the Quran or the hadiths...

Here is the greatest testimony/shahaada which Muhammad (pbuh) ever took:

6:19 Say: "What could most weightily bear witness to the truth?" Say: "God is witness between me and you; and this Qur'an has been revealed unto me so that on the strength thereof I might warn you and all whom it may reach." Could you in truth bear witness that there are other deities side by side with God? Say: "I bear no [such] witness!" Say: "He is the One God; and, behold, far be it from me to ascribe divinity, as, you do, to aught beside Him!"

Salaamun Alaykum
Wednesday at 8:33pm · Like ·  1 person ·

WayFinder: God commands the believers to obey the prophet, but God also makes sure that the obedience to the prophet is linked to obeying the message he delivered and nothing else. Obeying the prophet does not mean that he had a Sunna to be obeyed.

The confirmation that the obedience of the prophet is linked to obeying the message he delivered (the Quran) is confirmed in the following verse:

"Obey God and obey the messenger. If you shall turn away then the sole of the messenger is to deliver the message (the Quran)" 64:12

Note how the obedience to the prophet and the deliverance of the Quran are linked in the same verse.
Wednesday at 8:35pm · Like ·  1 person ·

Staunch Sunni Guy: Quote: ''Obey Allah and Obey messenger is usually regarded as 2 separate obediences that is:

Obey Allah = Quran
Obey Messenger = Hadith'' unquote.

Since we have a disagreement, the same verse commands us to refer to Allah and His Messenger. Why did Allah just not say refer it back to Allah?
Wednesday at 8:43pm · Like

WayFinder: ?[Why did Allah just not say refer it back to Allah?]

Because Allah does not speak to us directly but addresses us through a messenger... This mode has several purpose and is likely to be a test for those who will be arrogant enough to deny the fact that Allah indeed send human messengers.
Wednesday at 8:48pm · Like ·  2 people ·

Brother 1: ?@ Wayfinder. Please be patient and let br. Sunni Guy ask the same questions as many times as he requires. I was in exact same position not too long ago. I would repeat questions again and again. I learnt a new dimension for each answers. Also I thought I was defending the 'Sunnah' and was on the look out for a major flaw. Instead I found that my position was in a serious flaw only it was shrouded with a delicious tangle.

@ Sunni Guy. As far as my knowledge and acumen takes me so far, I do not subscribe to numerical miracle nor do I believe Rashad Khalifa was a Prophet. However, I have utmost respect for his endeavour to highlight the flaws of the mainstream thinking.
Wednesday at 8:49pm · Like

WayFinder: And as a note, you indeed regarded the 2 entity as 2 separate one... while the quran never put in this way..

The Quran stresses out over and over in about twenty different verses that we must obey God and obey the MESSENGER rather than mentioning a specific name for a messenger such as Muhammad or Moses........that is to emphasise that what is to be obeyed is the message of God and not the personal words of any messenger.
Wednesday at 8:51pm · Like ·

WayFinder: ?@Adam

Sure brother, it is only through these logical questioning that one can see the stability on the ground he is standing on... however, it is Only Allah who guides and He will definitely guide those who are seeking his guidance in all sincerity and truthfulness...
Wednesday at 8:53pm · Like ·  1 person ·

Staunch Sunni Guy: It is only through this logical questioning that Rashad Khalifa managed to find out 2 'false' verses of the Quran
Wednesday at 8:56pm · Like

Staunch Sunni Guy:
Brother 1: - please outline as to what methodology you use to accept some of the hadiths. Also, please state as to whether there is any room from specialisation in religious knowledge in Islam, according to your way.
Wednesday at 9:02pm · Like

WayFinder: ?[It is only through this logical questioning that Rashad Khalifa managed to find out 2 'false' verses of the Quran]

Not to forget... It is only 'through this logical questioning' that our father, Abraham found the true God. Let's try to be just at least.

God will indeed judge Rashad Khalifa as per his views but I am not talking about RK at any time here... I am talking about following the Quran as our guidance... Verily, in it there is guidance for those who have 'Albaab' ...Lets not try to do like the US or those who reject islam when they judge the whole muslim/islamic world based on the actions of a handful of people.
Wednesday at 9:11pm · Like ·  1 person ·

WayFinder: Moreover, we should be thinking what do we have in common... both party of us follow the Quran and accept it as the true word of God... do you really think that one who follow the guidance from the Quran can be misguided... why focus on our differences? In this case, it would have been much better to go and preach to people of polytheistic faiths and calling them to monotheism, the same monotheism advocated by all prophets who ever walked here. I just don't get it why we should be arguing with one another... Quran is not a closed book..
Wednesday at 9:14pm · Like ·

Staunch Sunni Guy: Yes, we have some in common whilst differnces in the fundamentals. When we say Muhammad saws was the last Messenger of Allah - we are accepting him as the best guide chosen for us. It is absurd to think that one will set aside his examples, statements and actions on the basis of mere misinterpretation. For almost all the ideologies, the founder has a prime role in the thinking process of his adherents.

The 'Quran only' notion takes away that rational basis of being a 'follower'. The Prophet saws lived and died on the basis of tawhid and would never direct us to anything other than the true worship of Allah. Following him would lead to obeying Allah. I urge to consider your position and save yourself from the destruction from which none of us is save unless Allah wills.
Yesterday at 2:44am · Like

WayFinder: ?[ It is absurd to think that one will set aside his examples, statements and actions on the basis of mere misinterpretation.]

Indeed that would be an absurd thing to do... but alhamdoulillah we are not doing it and the matter of fact is that we are indeed following his example through the ahsan al hadith (the best HADITH) - 39:23 - upon which we have total trust that it is 100% genuine and free from manmade lies.

The real absurdity would be to follow each and everything men has been ascribing to the messenger after he passed away and these were compiled into book collections centuries later and became canonized. It is no wonder for anyone who do a sound and honest research on hadiths that he will indeed found how hadiths introduces lots of false beliefs/concepts/doctrines into islam... things which are not present in the quran and sometimes even condoned by the Quran.

Moreover, since you spoke about 'misinterpretation'... then I wonder why is there even a room for interpretation if these books are suppose to explain another book(quran) ... what would be the real logic into this?

[The 'Quran only' notion takes away that rational basis of being a 'follower'.]

Infact, it re-inforces this notion of following-ship as we are trying our best to stick to the legacy of the messenger... and it is funny you are talking about rationality since there is almost no rationality in hadiths... whereas in quran... we are always instigated by Allah to be logical and closer to our reality from time to time by Almighty God himself.

[Following him would lead to obeying Allah]

As I said, we follow him through his message... not according to fabrications attributed to him centuries later. It seems that you do not read everything I write and you did not check the verses I posted properly.... You are again separating the messenger from Allah here ... And this one, Allah himself did not to that. Obeying Allah and Obeying Messenger is not 2 obediences but a single one. And the verse 'if you obeyed the Messenger, you have obeyed God'.

[I urge to consider your position and save yourself from the destruction from which none of us is save unless Allah wills.]

I will do that when there is some clear proof which shows me that i am standing in a minefield... so far, it has not been the case. Even in this discussion, I have already written quite much but there has been no proper response from your side regarding my position with the Quran as basis and reference. You are just telling me what you think or what you believe... In this sense, it would be foolish to follow you blindly like that... On the contrary, i have been constantly giving you proof from quran to back up my position with some references... which I sincerely hope you would check back and think upon it.

All these said.... May God guide us to the straight path.

Salaam
Yesterday at 6:29am · Like ·

Staunch Sunni Guy: The issue here is not whether the hadiths are authentic, but whether those have the authority. You are suggesting that only Quran has the authority and this is where we disagree.

I am, just like the Sunnis, aware of that there are fabrications in the hadith literature. However, there are scienes dealing with this matter. Hence, the classifications of hadiths.

If we are to disregard hadiths altogether because all of these are fabricated, then one can question the authenticiy of Quran itself. The very same people passed on the book of Allah to us. Why would you believe them when they pass on the Quran and not other statements of the prophet saws?

Some sect like the Rashad Khalifa's group even reject 2 verses of Al-Quran. What is your position towards them? In addition to rejecting the Sunnah, they reject the full authenticity of Quran itself using the similar argument as you.
Yesterday at 1:54pm · Like

WayFinder: ?[I am, just like the Sunnis, aware of that there are fabrications in the hadith literature.]

You are aware that hadiths is corrupted but inspite of that, you dare call it divine or unrecited revelation... This is the fallacy.

[ there are scienes dealing with this matter. Hence, the classifications of hadiths.]

Hadiths themselved were collected and compiled at least a century after the death of the messenger... Now the science you are talking about was developped even at a later time... Moreover, if you just sit and think... Bukhari was nearer to all these person and he collected 700l hadiths, then recorded only aroun 7500 (10%) of them in his collection and named his collection as SAHIH (sound)... now how on earth can we still find fabricated hadiths centuries and generations later ... while Bukhari who was nearer to the reporters classified them as sound after 'thorough' examination as we have come to learn..

[If we are to disregard hadiths altogether because all of these are fabricated, then one can question the authenticiy of Quran itself.]

This proves how the quran has gained a lowly status among our fellow brothers.. The misconception is that the same person transmitted the quran which is false... the Quran was delievered, arranged and compiled at the time of the messenger himself... when his mission was over, he left a complete book... This is what the Quran teaches us but I guess you have taken the hadith story of compilation of quran later by Uthman... this is because you have disregarded the message of the Quran... and you have come to bring it to the same status as hadiths (word of men). Hadiths were compiled centuries later and was never done by the same people... even though their names have been injected in the chains... but they were long dead by that time...

[Some sect like the Rashad Khalifa's group even reject 2 verses of Al-Quran. What is your position towards them? In addition to rejecting the Sunnah, they reject the full authenticity of Quran itself using the similar argument as you.]

I have already spoke about him above but I think I need to clarify again... RK does not represent the Quran alone ideology.. The Quran alone ideology was never introduced by him... The first Quran alone was Muhammad (pbuh) who followed nothing but the quran.. then were those who came after him... they followed only the quran... then later, the most of them broke up into sects each one happy with their own traditions and way of doings... RK does not represent Quran alone at all... he is just a sect which sprouted from the Quran as many other sects such as sunnism,shiasm,ahl al kalam,mutazilites etc etc... RK has given his mathematical calculations the upper hand on the Quran.. that was his choice... similarly, sunnis has given their hadiths the upper hand of the quran and this is also their choice... shias has given their imaams the upper hand on the quran.. and this also is their choice... So, I think I have cleared myself of RK and his ideology... I regard Quran as complete based on many undisputed reasons which proves that it is indeed the word of God.

I hope I have answered your questions.
Salam
Yesterday at 2:34pm · Like ·

Staunch Sunni Guy: Wayfinder - I have read yours posts and the verses you refer to. I believe, just like the Sunnis, that you are misinterpreting them to say the least.

Le me take the matter onto next level - that is the level of application of principles:

Do you pay Zakah? If so, how do you determine how much or what rate to pay?
Yesterday at 2:40pm · Like

WayFinder: ?[Do you pay Zakah? If so, how do you determine how much or what rate to pay?]

Are you asking this because you think the Quran lacks details or is incomplete?

If it is as you said, that is you indeed read my posts... then please do answer my very first initial accusation against your belief which is

[You are aware that hadiths is corrupted but inspite of that, you dare call it divine or unrecited revelation... This is the fallacy.]

Because I already know where this discussion will be leading... how do you do this, and how do you do that... This should not be the main topic at all.. We are dealing with the authority of the hadiths... where is it authorized? I have posed numerous questions which still remain to be answered... And I have tried my best to answer you everytime alhamdoulillah... so please do the same and we will have an enjoyable conversation insha Allah
Yesterday at 2:45pm · Like ·

Staunch Sunni Guy: Yes there are corrupted hadiths. But, we have specialits in our religion who have dealt with this matter. So, we take the authentic hadiths as part of our religion.

Now, go ahead and state as to how to go about preforming the obligation of paying Zakah.
Yesterday at 2:49pm · Like

WayFinder: ?[Yes there are corrupted hadiths]

So your divine books are corrupted? And you still claim they are divine? Are you aware that Allah says his Book will be protected and falsehood cannot enter it from any sides?
Yesterday at 2:50pm · Like ·

Staunch Sunni Guy: In the books of hadiths - there are classifications or have been classified. We do not say these are words of Allah. We say the authentic ones are part of Allah's religion.
Yesterday at 2:52pm · Like

WayFinder: ?[But, we have specialits in our religion who have dealt with this matter. So, we take the authentic hadiths as part of our religion. ]

The Specialists you are talking about just pick and choose hadiths which suit them and their ideology... There is no concensus regarding fake hadiths.. a party accept them while the other party reject them... this is how it goes.. it depends what sect you are following.
Yesterday at 2:53pm · Like ·

Staunch Sunni Guy: Nevertheless, there are common grounds on many practices especially in the orthodoxy
Yesterday at 2:54pm · Like

Staunch Sunni Guy: The orthodoxy agrees on the fundamentals of the religion - for example: the authority of Sunnah
Yesterday at 2:55pm · Like

WayFinder: ?[In the books of hadiths - there are classifications or have been classified. We do not say these are words of Allah. We say the authentic ones are part of Allah's religion.]

Obviously you are a real bad SUNNI brother... forgive me for being so direct... but you have no idea what role hadiths plays in sunnism.

Hadith is regarded as unrecited revelation (wahy)
Wahy comes from Allah (do you deny this)
Therefore it is the word of Allah

Moreover, there are the hadith Qudsi.. which are regarded to be direct word of Allah(revelation)... However, they are not found in the Quran.. and found in the books which you yourself say are corrupted!

So how can you say hadiths are not word of Allah?
Yesterday at 2:56pm · Like ·

WayFinder: ?[Nevertheless, there are common grounds on many practices especially in the orthodoxy]

None of these practices, if true, should be alien from the Quran... Because it was the Quran which brought Islam... Not the other way round
Yesterday at 2:57pm · Like ·

Staunch Sunni Guy: The principle is - 'whatever the prophet says, take it'. So, if the prophet recites Allah's words - we take it so. If he orders something, we take that too.
Yesterday at 2:59pm · Like

WayFinder: ?[ The principle is - 'whatever the prophet says, take it'. So, if the prophet recites Allah's words - we take it so. If he orders something, we take that too.]

whatever the prophet says, take it = Who says this and where please?
Yesterday at 3:00pm · Like ·

Staunch Sunni Guy: ?59: 7. That which Allah giveth as spoil unto His messenger from the people of the townships, it is for Allah and His messenger and for the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer, that it become not a commodity between the rich among you. And whatsoever the messenger giveth you, take it. And whatsoever he forbiddeth, abstain (from it). And keep your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is stern in reprisal

Pickthal's Quran Translation
Yesterday at 3:05pm · Like

WayFinder: I suggest you read it again... you have obviously disregard the true quranic context of this verse... infact, you are not the one to blame because even the so called scholars make this mistake and always misquote this verse... And then, they come and tell us that it is we who are 'MISinterpreting' the Quran...

The verse you showed me, I am already aware of it alhamdoulillah.. and this verse is specifically talking about the spoils of war and its distribution among those who participated in the battles and conquest. It has nothing nothing to do with hadiths... Please read the verses in context and you should see it as well... This also prove how satan has been playing with people so that they have some to inject concepts into verses which in truth are not found in the verses and the verses is talking about something else.
Yesterday at 3:09pm · Like ·

WayFinder: In a few words you have told me how hadiths is the word of Allah and how the word of Allah is being corrupted through them.
Yesterday at 3:10pm · Like ·

Staunch Sunni Guy: You seem to misunderstand the Quranic prnciple. The veres were revealed in particualar contexts. But, the general principles stand. Otherwise, no Quranic verse giving instructions will be applicable other than for the specific instance in which it was revealed.
Yesterday at 3:12pm · Like

WayFinder: The bog question still remains:

How can you claim the hadiths to be divine when you have accepted it to be corrupted and fabricated?

How can you regard it as the word of Allah but it is not found in the Quran?

You got only 2 options:

1. Either Quran + all hadiths = quran

2. Quran= Quran ... the rest is not quran/therefore not divine/therefore not wahy/therefore not revelation/ therefore word of Men
Yesterday at 3:12pm · Like ·

WayFinder: ?[ You seem to misunderstand the Quranic prnciple. The veres were revealed in particualar contexts. But, the general principles stand. Otherwise, no Quranic verse giving instructions will be applicable other than for the specific instance in which it was revealed.]

Hence in this case, there is a verse which tell you not to marry the wives of the prophet after his death.. tell me the general principle from it please.
Yesterday at 3:13pm · Like ·

Staunch Sunni Guy: I did not say all the hadiths are corrupted. So, your assumptin is wrong. The meaning of authentic statements are wahy, but the Quran is direct speech of Allah. That is the Sunni orthodoxy belief.
Yesterday at 3:16pm · Like

WayFinder: Direct speech/indirect speech ?? Whats the difference as long as it is 'speech of Allah'?? Do you assume that the direct speech of Allah is infaillible while the indirect one is faillible?
Yesterday at 3:17pm · Like ·

Staunch Sunni Guy: Regarding the mothers of the believers - the verse still stands in meaning. They are our mothers who pased away.
Yesterday at 3:18pm · Like

WayFinder: ?[ Regarding the mothers of the believers - the verse still stands in meaning. They are our mothers who pased away.]

But the verse says not to marry them.. do you imply that till now we can marry them?
Yesterday at 3:19pm · Like ·

Staunch Sunni Guy: Direct and indirect speech: Direct speech spoken by Allah. No such thing as indirect speech - meaning of Allah's words as the prophet passed on. We are talking about the authentic statements only.
Yesterday at 3:20pm · Like

Staunch Sunni Guy: One cannot even one wants to. God forbid, even such a supposition!
Yesterday at 3:21pm · Like

WayFinder: So you are telling me that [Allah's words as the prophet passed on] is allowed to be mixed with falsehood/fabrications? But Allah says his word never change!
Yesterday at 3:21pm · Like ·

Staunch Sunni Guy: Allah's words don't change. The meaning of Allah's revelation in the authentic sunnah is preserved.
Yesterday at 3:23pm · Like

WayFinder: ?[One cannot even one wants to. God forbid, even such a supposition!]

You are j0oking... Does the quran contain extra stuff? What is the reason behind imposing a restriction when no one would want to marry them? You already know the true answer to this question but you know what you are doing.. you are juggling around to find a solution.
Yesterday at 3:24pm · Like ·

WayFinder: ?[Allah's words don't change. The meaning of Allah's revelation in the authentic sunnah is preserved.]

You seem not to understand or you are acting as such. Let me explain:

1. You say hadiths is the words of Allah (wahy/revelation)
2. You say there are corrupted/fake hadiths

Therefore, the word of God(wahy) is being mixed with falsehood (hadiths) just like the gospels where we have the word of jesus mixed with the words of man.
Yesterday at 3:28pm · Like ·

Staunch Sunni Guy: What you quoted from me is meant to say that the mothers of the belivers passed away.
Yesterday at 3:29pm · Like

WayFinder: ?[What you quoted from me is meant to say that the mothers of the belivers passed away.]

Therefore, what about the verse telling not to marry them? Do they still apply since we cannot marry them anymore! Where is the quranic principle you spoke about regarding [what the prophet give, take it] which is contextually talking on the spoils of war.
Yesterday at 3:30pm · Like ·

Staunch Sunni Guy: ?(1. You say hadiths is the words of Allah (wahy/revelation)
...2. You say there are corrupted/fake hadiths)

Authentic hadiths are not the words of Allah. But, what is attributed to Muhammad saws bears the meaning of Allah's revealation. Do you understand the distinction? Allah has revealed the Hikmah to the prophet. Sunnah is part of Hikmah.
Yesterday at 3:32pm · Like

Staunch Sunni Guy: ?(what about the verse telling not to marry them? Do they still apply since we cannot marry them anymore! Where is the quranic principle you ...spoke about)

The specific time of revealation has passed and as it stands for the mothers of the believers - this principle does not need any more application as they passed away. As for whatever the principle, 'whatever the prophet says, take it' - it stands.
Yesterday at 3:38pm · Like

WayFinder: ?[Authentic hadiths are not the words of Allah. But, what is attributed to Muhammad saws bears the meaning of Allah's revealation. Do you understand the distinction? Allah has revealed the Hikmah to the prophet. Sunnah is part of Hikmah.]

Now we see a change in the words... no problem.. I will deal with it insha Allah.

You used a very good word up there and this word is 'attributed'... lets see what attributed means:

To attribute = To ascribe; to consider (something) as due or appropriate (to); to refer, as an effect to a cause; to impute; to assign; to consider as belonging (to).

All these actions are done by a third party. Not vouched by the individual himself.

[But, what is attributed to Muhammad saws bears the meaning of Allah's revealation.]

Not everything from Muhammad is revelation. The Quran is clear on that. What comes from Muhammad is from his own and what comes from the messenger is from Allah. Muhammad, the man, made something halal into haraam... and he made a mistake... it was not revelation... And God corrected him and asked him to stop doing that.

God commands the prophet in the Quran to say that he is infallible in the revelation he delivers, but that he may commit errors in his personal words and hadith:

"Say:If I err , I err because of my shortcomings, and if I am rightly guided it is due to the revelation I receive from my Lord" 34:50

In spite of that confirmation and also 6 incidents in the Quran when the prophet is reprimanded by God, for errors he committed, those who insist on following the Words of MAN claim that he was infallible!!!! These 6 incidents are found in (8:67-68......9:43.......9:113-114........ 33:37..........66:1.........80:1-11 )

All this to say that, not everything from Muhammad was revelation... The only revelation was the Quran... which he transmitted and made sure it was copied down and saveguarded... This is the legacy left by Muhammad (pbuh)
Yesterday at 3:40pm · Like ·

WayFinder: ?[The specific time of revealation has passed and as it stands for the mothers of the believers - this principle does not need any more application as they passed away. As for whatever the principle, 'whatever the prophet says, take it' - it stands.]

So I assume the prophet is still alive then... what do you say?
Yesterday at 3:41pm · Like ·

Staunch Sunni Guy: Allah revealed Hikmah to Muhammad saws. The fact that Quran points out 'mistakes' of the prophet is a proof that this book is not authored by the prophet and the prophet has been taken care of in his mission. As for the 'attribute' word - this is meant to say witnesses testifying just like the Quran was passed down to us from the companions.
Yesterday at 3:44pm · Like

Staunch Sunni Guy: ?(So I assume the prophet is still alive then... what do you say?)

No of course. But, whatever he said is part of our religion. You know the obvious.
Yesterday at 3:46pm · Like

Staunch Sunni Guy: So, using you logic what do you say about other Quranic injunctions - on what basis do we practice those?
Yesterday at 3:49pm · Like

WayFinder: ?[No of course. But, whatever he said is part of our religion. You know the obvious.]

If he is not alive, then the verse does not stand. This is your own principle and should not be broken. If it applies, it should only be for his message. His legacy.. the quran.. Not words attributed to him in books full of lies and corruption.

The fact is that, the quran has time bound verses which are not applicable anymore and you cannot apply them in our time after the passing away of the messenger.

There is still another verse which tell you when you visit the house of the messenger, hurry up and do not seek vain discourse. How can this be applied? Should we do it to hadith sellers?
Yesterday at 3:50pm · Like ·

WayFinder: Moreover, a slight correction.. it is not whatever the prophet 'says' but whatever the prophet 'gives'... and in the proper context of the verse, it is about giving physical things like money and belongings from fallen cities.
Yesterday at 3:51pm · Like ·

Staunch Sunni Guy: ?'whatever the prophet has forbidden' - so should the prophet forbid when 'Quran alone' forbids?
Yesterday at 3:53pm · Like

WayFinder: ?['whatever the prophet has forbidden' - so should the prophet forbid when 'Quran alone' forbids?]

Again more misinterpretation since you ardently want to inject your concept which does not fit here. The verse is clearly putting 2 opposites side by side here... Like many many other places in the quran... such as light/darkness, believe/reject etc etc

In the proper quranic context of the verse.. The prophets 'gives' (part of the booty) and do not give(part of the booty).. it is the opposed action of the first.

Here is Nahaa

Nun-ha-Waw/Ya = to prevent, forbid, chide away, prohibit, make one to stop from, restrain, interdict, hinder, desist, refrain.

Prevent from taking/stop from taking.
Yesterday at 3:58pm · Like ·

WayFinder: I have not talked about the famous 'hikmah' yet since we are already dealing with several issue and would not want the discussion to turn into confusion. I will insha Allah deal with it at later time when we finish with these. There is also one which you have not yet responded to:

----------------------------------

[No of course. But, whatever he said is part of our religion. You know the obvious.]

If he is not alive, then the verse does not stand. This is your own principle and should not be broken. If it applies, it should only be for his message. His legacy.. the quran.. Not words attributed to him in books full of lies and corruption.

The fact is that, the quran has time bound verses which are not applicable anymore and you cannot apply them in our time after the passing away of the messenger.

There is still another verse which tell you when you visit the house of the messenger, hurry up and do not seek vain discourse. How can this be applied? Should we do it to hadith sellers?
Yesterday at 4:07pm · Like ·

Staunch Sunni Guy: Ok - talking about the time bound verses: let us talk about Zakah. How do you implement it? Set aside the issue of the authority of Sunnah this day.
Yesterday at 4:15pm · Like

WayFinder: We have not finished yet on the authority of the sunnah brother... there are still left for you to answer.. unless you can prove that hadiths is the absolute necessity for the implementation of the quranic teachings, we would not be moving from the topic yet.

Because I have clearly shown you how 'whatever the prophet GIVES' is misinterpreted. I have also shown you that there are timebound verses in the quran. Unless we come to a conlusion on what we are currently discussing, we would not be discussing any other topic yet because they comes later in the chain.
Yesterday at 4:21pm · Like ·

WayFinder: So, you told me that verse on wives of prophet does not apply because they have passed away but strangely, the commands to obey/follow/take from a dead prophet still applies.
Yesterday at 4:22pm · Like ·

WayFinder: What about giving donation to the prophet, not seeking vain discourse with him, not annoying him, not raising voice in his presence, not embarass him... what about all these?? These are ALL in the quran..
Yesterday at 4:23pm · Like ·

WayFinder: Its futile to speak on hundreds of topics when we cannot finish even one and conclude it... and believe me brother, if i start talking about zakah... it will be another long topic... Today I have been able to address u for long because I am off from work... I will need to find the time later on for the days to come as i will be at work.. except the weekends
Yesterday at 4:27pm · Like ·

WayFinder: I have look into the references and here they are for your convenience:

1. Consult Messenger privately - 58:12
2. Make a donation to the messenger - 58:12
3: Do not marry his wives - 33:53
4. Do not annoy/embarass him - 33:53/33:57
5. Not raise loud voice in front of the prophet - 49:2

All these actions are as practical as obey/follow/give/take ... So, why are we neglecting them?

The fact is that all these are time-bound verses and they cannot be denied, no matter how hard one would try. They applied only at the time the messenger was walking as a live man among his people. Quran alone is not a game... Quran alone cannot be dismissed.
Yesterday at 4:55pm · Like ·

Staunch Sunni Guy: Wayfinder - when I mentioned the Quranic principle being for all time - I stated it as a general principle. What you are talking about are the exceptions as above.

Since you seem to be want call the shots - let us talk about the issue of the authority of Sunnah itself, rather than how this authority manifests.

Quran 7:157 - 158:

follow the messenger,
the gentile prophet (Muhammad),
whom they find written in their
Torah and Gospel.* He exhorts
them to be righteous, enjoins
them from evil, allows for them all
good food, and prohibits that which
is bad, and unloads the burdens and
the shackles imposed upon them.
Those who believe in him, respect
him, support him, and follow
the light that came with him
are the successful ones."

Say, "O people, I am GOD's
messenger to all of you.
To Him belongs the sovereignty
of the heavens and the earth.
There is no god except He.
He controls life and death."
Therefore, you shall believe in
GOD and His messenger, the
gentile prophet, who believes in
GOD and His words. Follow him,
that you may be guided.

So, in the above verses - Allah allowed the prophet to make lawful and unlawful. He commanded us to 'follow' the prophet.
If the job of the prophet saws was to deliver the Quran only, why would Allah allow him to legislate as His Messenger and why would Allah command us to follow him? How will we follow his lawful and unlawful aspects?
Yesterday at 8:09pm · Like

Staunch Sunni Guy: In fact, the issue of the prophet legislating has been mentioned as a separate category in the following verse:

Quran 9:29

You shall fight back against
those who do not believe in GOD,
nor in the Last Day, nor do they
prohibit what GOD and His
messenger have prohibited, nor do
they abide by the religion
of truth among those who
received the scripture, until
they pay the due tax, willingly
or unwillingly.

The command is to fight them for a number of reasons. Amongst these reasons are:

They do not forbid what Allah has forbidden
They do not forbid what the Messneger has forbidden.

Hence, the authority of the holy prophet to legislate as Allah's Messenger.
Yesterday at 8:15pm · Like

WayFinder: ?[So, in the above verses - Allah allowed the prophet to make lawful and unlawful.]

Again... total failure in understanding the clear language of the Quran and its message... I already showed you that Muhammad (pbuh) was NEVER allowed to make anything lawful or unlawful by himself as he did once and God reprimanded him! The fact is that all lawful and unlawful are revealed in the Quran, therefore when the messenger delivered the message, that is the quran, he also delivered the lawful and the unlawful... You are coming to a conclusion without giving a look over the entire message in the quran... you are coming to a conclusion based on a single verse which is absolutely the wrong way to study the quran... I am telling you all this because ALLAH has clearly stated that ALL halal and haraam are in the Quran... This is from where the messenger took it and transmitted it.

Even prophet cannot forbid anything lawful of Allah on his own

O Prophet! why holdest thou to be forbidden that which Allah has made lawful to thee? Thou seekest to please thy consorts. But Allah is Oft- Forgiving Most Merciful. 66:1

This verse proves the Allah never allowed to make any law on his own as you wanted to imply above.

Moreover, here is a beautiful verse which might enlighten you and disrupt your dream.

Say: "I find not in THE MESSAGE received by me by inspiration any forbidden to be eaten by one who wishes to eat it unless it be dead meat or blood poured forth or the flesh of swine for it is an abomination or what is impious (meat) on which a name has been invoked other than Allah's." But (even so) if a person is forced by necessity without wilful disobedience nor transgressing due limits thy Lord is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful. 6:145

Read this verse several times until you can implant the right knowledge into your mind. The verse explicitly makes it clear that all lawful/unlawful are only found in the Book of Allah... The messenger himself takes it from there and transmitted it.

What do you have to say on this?
Yesterday at 8:21pm · Like ·

WayFinder: ?[They do not forbid what Allah has forbidden
They do not forbid what the Messneger has forbidden.]

You indeed persists in your false concept of separating the entity of messengership and God... When Allah himself has regarded them as one. Check you verse you posted yourself 9:29, it says Allah wa rasoolahou... always together as one. I have already shown you in the reply above how the prophet legislated according to revelations.
Yesterday at 8:24pm · Like ·

WayFinder: Allah speaks through the mouth of the messenger. When Muhammad the messenger spoke, it was Allah speaking through his mouth. Only when he was in messengership state, that is when he was delivering the divine writ

He who obeys the Messenger has obeyed Allah ; but those who turn away - We have not sent you over them as a guardian. [4:90]
Yesterday at 8:26pm · Like ·

WayFinder: ?[Wayfinder- when I mentioned the Quranic principle being for all time - I stated it as a general principle. What you are talking about are the exceptions as above. ]

Why are they exceptions? Why is not follow the prophet/obey the prophet exception then? Whats the logic in this?
Yesterday at 8:27pm · Like ·

WayFinder: Infact the general principle you are talking about is nothing but 'pick and choose' for there is no general principle at all which you are sticking you.

How is giving prophet donation and taking something from what he gives different?
Yesterday at 8:28pm · Like ·

Staunch Sunni Guy: ?'How is giving prophet donation and taking something from what he gives different?'

Because he is not with us to receive it.
Yesterday at 8:30pm · Like

WayFinder: ?[Because he is not with us to receive it.]

This the key.. he is not with us... you cannot obey/follow/raise voice/donate/marry his wives etc etc... you cannot do anything in regards to him. So, the messenger is out of the formula.. But God is still here... Follow the message the messenger delivered and you will be following God. I know you have already seen what I intended to show you... However, it is up to you to choose you path since we all got free-will.. May Allah guide us to the straight path.
Yesterday at 8:33pm · Like ·

Staunch Sunni Guy: ?66: 3. And when the prophet secretly communicated a piece of information to one of his wives-- but when she informed (others) of it, and Allah made him to know it, he made known part of it and avoided part; so when he informed her of it, she said: Who informed you of this? He said: The Knowing, the one Aware, informed me.

Wayfinder - this verse is a demonstration that there are revelations other than the Quran. Where does Quran say what was revealed to the prophet about his incident?
Yesterday at 8:36pm · Like

WayFinder: Good point... i guess you are finally reading some article on the authority of the sunnah... Anyways, where in the verses does it say that Allah REVEALED(wahy) this information to the messenger, can you show me please, where is the evidence of wahy?
Yesterday at 8:39pm · Like ·

Staunch Sunni Guy: Quote.
This the key.. he is not with us... you cannot obey/follow/raise voice/donate/marry his wives etc etc... you cannot do anything in regards to him. So, the messenger is out of the formula..
Unquote.

The prophet's guidance is for all time. Hence, we must follow and obey his teachings.
Yesterday at 8:40pm · Like

WayFinder: ?[The prophet's guidance is for all time. Hence, we must follow and obey his teachings.]

The guidance is only Al-Quran... Another name for Quran is guidance... in the very first surah... it says.. hudan lin naas... Take heed
Yesterday at 8:42pm · Like ·

Staunch Sunni Guy: ?''where in the verses does it say that Allah REVEALED(wahy) this information to the messenger''

Reply: ''Allah made him to know it,''
Yesterday at 8:42pm · Like

Staunch Sunni Guy: ?''The guidance is only Al-Quran... Another name for Quran is guidance... in the very first surah... it says.. hudan lin naas... Take heed''

In the first sura it says,' hudallil muttaqin''
Yesterday at 8:44pm · Like

WayFinder: ?[Reply: ''Allah made him to know it,'']

There are many communications between Allah and His messengers that are designed to be private (such as the inspirations given to Jacob, or the dream given to Abraham, or the inspiration given Joseph, etc.) and even some communication between God and some regular humans (such as the mother of Moses being inspired to place him in the river). This does not mean that such communication is meant for the public, nor does it mean that such communication is law. The only communication that we regard as law is the Qur’an which has been defined by Allah as such (see 5:48).

Moreover, the verb anzala/awhaa(reveal) does not appear at all in the the verse, meaning that revelation of the quran is not concerned with this.
Yesterday at 8:45pm · Like ·  1 person ·

WayFinder: ?[In the first sura it says,' hudallil muttaqin'']

Thanks for the correction.
Yesterday at 8:46pm · Like ·

Staunch Sunni Guy: To correct further, Quran is a guide for the pious ones (2:2) because they want to follow the guidance. It is a guide for mankind (2:185).
Yesterday at 8:51pm · Like

WayFinder: ?[To correct further, Quran is a guide for the pious ones (2:2) because they want to follow the guidance. It is a guide for mankind (2:185).]

Yes it is, alhamdoulillah... there is no better guidance than the guidance of Allah almighty through his words delivered by his blessed messengers to the world.
Yesterday at 8:52pm · Like ·

Staunch Sunni Guy: And the messenger explained the guidance to us?
Yesterday at 8:53pm · Like

WayFinder: ?[And the messenger explained the guidance to us?]

Now you are coming with something else... each time i am overriding your arguments, you are coming with a new argument... I just really hope you are learning from it insha Allah. Now, if I will debunk this one, you will move to another one, will this go like this forever? Won't you like start researching and studying the Book for yourself in utmost sincerity and honesty in the belief that truly, this book has guidance in it...
Yesterday at 8:55pm · Like ·  1 person ·

WayFinder: The Quran confirms that the only duty of Muhammad (or of any messenger) is to deliver God's message, and not to teach any other teachings.

"The only duty of the messenger is to deliver God's message" 5:99 (also in 5:92.... 16:35.......16:82.....24:54.......29:18.....42:48.......64:12)

God commands the believers to obey the prophet, but God also makes sure that the obedience to the prophet is linked to obeying the message he delivered and nothing else. Obeying the prophet does not mean that he had a Sunna to be obeyed.

The confirmation that the obedience of the prophet is linked to obeying the message he delivered (the Quran) is confirmed in the following verse:

"Obey God and obey the messenger. If you shall turn away then the sole of the messenger is to deliver the message (the Quran)" 64:12

Note how the obedience to the prophet and the deliverance of the Quran are linked in the same verse.
Yesterday at 8:57pm · Like ·  1 person ·

Staunch Sunni Guy: Surah 16:64

And WE have not sent down to thee the Book except that thou mayest explain to them that concerning which they have created differences and as a guidance, and a mercy for a people who believe.

So, deliverying as well as explaining was the job of the prophet and this is where the authority of the prophet comes.
Yesterday at 9:07pm · Like

Staunch Sunni Guy: ?"Obey God and obey the messenger. If you shall turn away then the sole of the messenger is to deliver the message (the Quran)" 64:12

This verse is a proof against your position. If someone does not oby Allah and His Messenger - we are to convey the Message only, rather than forcing them to obey. This is the understanding.
Yesterday at 9:11pm · Like

Staunch Sunni Guy: In any case, where are the records of the prophet's explanation? Are we not in need of that to sort out our differences?
Yesterday at 9:13pm · Like

WayFinder: First of all, let me remind you again about the posts above regarding the legislation of the prophet and how he was NOT allowed to make anything lawful/unlawful on his own... First, this has to be in the Book of Allah, then the messenger delivers it to the people... SO it is Allah making the laws, and the messenger delivering it... Not the other way round... and the law must be in the Book... I have given you clear references as well... but sadly enough, I think man is too arrogant to acknowledge and comply.. so you remained silent on it and you just push forward another void argument to support your case.

Now when it comes to the explanation of the Quran.. you are making the same mistake thinking that the prophet can explain everything from his own.. which is false... totally false.. just like the laws, the explanation is first revealed in the Book, then transmitted to the audience... for the audience, the perception is as if it was the messenger teaching/explaining/detailing the quran when he was transmitting the explanation given by God Almighty himself. He is the verse which tell us that it is Allah who explains... not the other way round.

2:218 - We have explained/explained...
3:118 - We have made clear/explained...
57:17 - We have made clear/explained...
2:221 - We have explained/made clear...
24:18 - Allah explains/made it clear...
etc etc

These are just a bunch of verses, I cannot bring all of them here for there are really a lot of them which teach us that all explanation are made by Allah... And when the messenger delivers these verses, they are the explanations he is giving to the audience... Same as the law... Everything from the Book of Allah... Allah is doing everything...
Yesterday at 9:19pm · Like ·

Staunch Sunni Guy: If everything is clear to everyone, why the command on the prophet to explain?
Yesterday at 9:23pm · Like

WayFinder: ?[This verse is a proof against your position. If someone does not oby Allah and His Messenger - we are to convey the Message only, rather than forcing them to obey. This is the understanding.]

How is it against my position? I dont see any problem with it... there is no forcing in this system... there is no compulsion in the deen... I have no idea what you are talking about... please clarify
Yesterday at 9:23pm · Like ·

Staunch Sunni Guy: You only deliver the message when someone does not obey Allah and His Messenger to make yourself innocent.
Yesterday at 9:24pm · Like

WayFinder: ?[If everything is clear to everyone, why the command on the prophet to explain?]

Read my reply again... I have showed you it is Allah who explains... not the messenger... the messenger only delivers the explanation... therefore, to the people, explaining them with the new revelations.
Yesterday at 9:25pm · Like ·

WayFinder: ?[ You only deliver the message when someone does not obey Allah and His Messenger to make yourself innocent.]

Yes... this is the way taught by the Quran... this is valid on the general population/nation... except on those who crossed the limits set by Allah by indulging in oppression.
Yesterday at 9:26pm · Like ·

WayFinder: Simple logic learned from the Quran:

1. One who obeyed the messenger has indeed obey Allah

Lesson learnt, messenger speaks, but it is as if Allah speaking through his mouth. So, from the perception of the audience, it is the messenger speaking.

2. Messenger makes lawful and unlawful things

Lesson learnt: From the audience perception, it is the messenger creating laws, but the fact is, he cannot do that and its a crime if he do it, he is only delivering the law through the verses revealed to him

3. The messenger explains the Quran

Lesson learn: The messenger cannot explain the Quran since it escapes his own intellect. It is always Allah doing the explanation and revealing it to the messenger through the verses... the messenger delivers the explanation... but from the audience perception, it is the messenger explaining to them.

Everything is done by Allah, revealed through his words... Recorded and preserved in his book... there is nothing fancy or mystery about it.

Alhamdoulillahi Rabbil Aaalameen
Yesterday at 9:45pm · Like ·

Staunch Sunni Guy: Let us look at one aspect of the law:

Quote: 'The only communication that we regard as law is the Qur’an which has been defined by Allah as such (see 5:48).'

In the above verse, Allah requres His propeht to judge by what Allah has revealed. But, we come to know that Allah has also revealed Hikmah to His prophet. That Hikmah is found in the Sunnah or what you seem to acknowledge as revelation outside the Quran.
20 hours ago · Like

WayFinder: Salaam,

Seems you went for a hunt for a new argument brother... now you are back on hikmah. Again, the same erronous view that Hikmah is sunnah or hadiths. You traditionalists, you are so keen in following your desires, you believe in it so hard, so deep that you prepared to do any kind of ramifications to achieve your goals... That is, injecting the wicked concepts not present in the verse... and doing this even though Allah mentioned that his Book is clear and free from any kind of crookedness.

Traditionalists are fond of separating what Allah has joined together.

Lets see about hekmah:

Due to the fact that the Quran did not contain any mention of the words ‘Sunna’t Muhammad’, the ardent Sunni’s found it necessary to manipulate the meaning of some Quranic words so as to create a Quranic reference to their cherished ‘hadith’ and ‘Sunna’. The word on which they base their claim is that of (Al-Hekmah) as found in a number of verses as:

"Remember God’s blessings upon you, and what He sent down to you of the ‘Al-Ketab’ and ‘Al-Hekmah’ to enlighten you with it." 2:231

Literally speaking, the meaning of ‘Al-Ketab’ is the book (the Quran), and ‘Al-Hekmah’ is wisdom. Nevertheless they interpret ‘Al-Hekmah’ here to mean the Sunna of Muhammad. However, with a close inspection of the Quranic verses, it can be shown that this interpretation is a total corruption. This is due to the following reasons:

1. The word ‘bihee’ (with it) that appear at the end of the verse, is in the singular mode, in other words it describes one thing and not two. For that reason the words ‘Al-Hekmah’ and ‘Al-Ketab’ must denote one thing and not two, unless of course God is making grammatical mistakes!

If the words ‘Al-Hekmah’ and ‘Al-Ketab’ really referred to the Quran and the Sunna, then the verse should grammatically end with the word ‘bihima’ (with them), which is the plural mode of ‘bihee’.

2: The word ‘Al-Hekmah’ is used throughout the Quran as an adjective of the ‘Al-Ketab’ (the Quran). This is made evident in the following verses :

"Y.S., and the Quran Al-Hakim" 36:1-2

"This is what We recite to you of the ‘Ayat’ and the ‘Zekr Al-Hakim" 3:58

"A.L.R., these are the signs of the ‘Ketab Al-Hakim" 10:1 also 31:2

3: The same word ‘Al-Hekmah’ is used in the Quran in connection with prophets and messengers who lived before the time of Muhammad. Obviously before Muhammad lived his Sunna did not exist. Thus to say that ‘Al-Hekmah’ means Sunna’t Muhammad is incorrect. Consider the following verses:

a- The following are God’s words to Jesus:

"And I taught you the ‘Ketab’ (Scripture) and ‘Al-Hekmah’(wisdom)." 5:110

Clearly the word ‘Al-Hekmah’ here does not mean the Sunna of Muhammad.

b- The following were the words of Abraham as he implored his Lord :

"Our Lord, and send for them a messenger from among them to recite to them your ‘Ayat’ and teach them the ‘Ketab’ (Scripture) and ‘Al-Hekmah’ (wisdom)." 2:129

Again the word ‘Al-Hekmah’ here could not mean anything but wisdom. Abraham had no knowledge of the ‘Sunna’ of Muhammad.

4: A further evidence that the word ‘Al-Hekmah’ as used in the Quran means wisdom and not Sunna is found in the following verse:

"He bestows ‘Al-Hekmah’ upon whoever He pleases, and whoever attains ‘Al-Hekmah’ has indeed attained a great blessing." 2:269

The words "whoever He pleases" in this verse indicate that God bestows ‘Al-Hekmah’ upon any of the believers and not just His messengers. If we assume that ‘Al-Hekmah’ means the Sunna we would have to believe that any ordinary believer may also have his own personal Sunna that has to be followed by other believers! This of course is not the case. The verse would instead make full sense if we think of ‘Al-Hekmah’ in its proper meaning as wisdom.

5: In Sura 17, we are given a clear demonstration of the word ‘Al-Hekmah’ as being the ability to differentiate between right and wrong and the wisdom to choose what is right. If we read the verses from 22 to 39, we find God commanding us not to worship except Him, to honor our parents, to give due alms to our relatives, the needy, the poor, and the traveling alien but without being extravagant or stingy, not to kill our children for fear of poverty, not to commit adultery, nor to abuse the orphan’s money, to trade equitably and fairly, to verify everything before following it blindly and not to act vainly. After such valuable advice God informs us that these virtues are indeed what wisdom is all about.

In that sense ‘Al-Hekmah’ is not a book of ‘hadith’ (sayings) of one single person but instead a blessing that God may bestow on any of His servants.

6: Perhaps the simplest and most convincing reason for discarding the corrupted meaning of ‘Al-Hekmah’ so as to mean the Sunna, is the fact that God is neither vague nor fond of providing us with puzzles. God asserts that the Quran is straightforward, it contains no crookedness:

"An Arabic Quran, without any crookedness, that they may take heed." 39:28

Surely, had God willed that we should follow the teachings of the Quran plus the Sunna He would have mentioned the words ‘Sunna’t Muhammad’ explicitly in the Quran. Needless to say, the only Sunna that is mentioned in the Quran is the Sunna of Allah.

"This is the Sunna of God for those of the past, and

7

Sunni/Shia Religion / Abu Hurayrah memory VERY GOOD for hadith but NOT SO GOOD for the Quran :D

« on: November 20, 2009, 04:19:10 AM »

Salaamun Alaykum

I encountered the hadith which relates a funny story on judgement day and the last man to enter paradise.  The hadith has nothing important apart from the fact that it says, hypocrites also will enter Jannah while the Quran state it otherwise.  However I noticed a part at the end of the hadith which intrigued me and I quote:

Bukhari - 008.076.577

Abu Huraira added: That man will be the last of the people of Paradiseto enter (Paradise).

Narrated 'Ata (while Abu Huraira was narrating): Abu Said was sitting in the company of Abu Huraira and he did not deny anything of his narration till he reached his saying: "All this and as much again therewith are for you." Then Abu Sa'id said, "I heard Allah's Apostle saying, 'This is for you and ten times as much.' " Abu Huraira said, "In my memory it is 'as much again therewith.' "

In this quote above, Abu Hurayrah does not seem to remember that each good deed will be rewarded by 10x (ten times) from Allah and even though his friend reminded him, he did not change his mind and still rely on his memory.  He had such a good memory for hadith and he related so much of them.  However, it seems that he totally missed this verse from the Quran

6:160 Whoever shall come [before God] with a good deed will gain ten times the like thereof; but whoever shall come with an evil deed will be requited with no more than the like thereof; and none shall be wronged.

The Quran is clear on this issue... So, the question is, did Abu Hurayrah memorized/know the Quran??

8

Christianity/Judaism/Others / What is OT and NT?

« on: September 11, 2009, 10:17:17 AM »

Salaam brothers and sisters,

I have just started to read the bible and I find it to be very interesting.  Infact my uncle had a bible he got from a Jehovah witness but my uncle moved to another country and left all his stuff at home.  I just found this bible last week and have decided to read it.  I am having difficulty situating myself as there are many chapter names and so on... Also many divisions and sub-divisions... I know the OT means Old Testament and NT means New Testament... From what I read... OT is the first 5 chapters from the bible from genesis to deuteronomy... please correct me if am wrong... OT also is before Jesus and is from Moses... And the chapters after these 5 chapters are the NT and are written after Jesus... 

To anyone who can help, please let me know if there is a proper way I can follow in order to avoid confusion.  Please explain me regarding the OT and NT ... Also, is the OT same as Torah?  I read somewhere the OT is the Tanak... is the OT used by Jews or Christians only?

Hope you bros and sis will help me fill these gaps...

Thank you

9

Quranic Divinity / The Divine Book [videos]

« on: August 27, 2009, 01:43:40 AM »

Salaam

If you got some spare time, you better watch these videos... very interesting

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=7F101E9D874EEE66&search_query=The+Divine+Book

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Questions/Comments on the Quran / Regarding FIDYA

« on: August 26, 2009, 02:11:57 AM »

Salaam Alaykum

Straight forward question...

What if the person in question is himself a MISKEEN and is also SICK... what should he do to cover the missed number of days? Let's consider he cannot fast due to his health for the whole month...