Messages

1

North America / Re: Believers In Virginia/DC/Maryland

« on: February 20, 2011, 08:23:03 PM »

i am interested, however with the demands of my occupation, time is hard to come by as of yet. perhaps later. N' shallah.

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Submitters / Code 19 / Re: mathematical code

« on: February 20, 2011, 05:53:43 PM »

im sorry but it is ignorant to ignore all of the facts and only propagate the lie that the measurements were only made on a flat map of the world and that it was never made on a true representation of the world globe (in computer generated model to scale). it is also ignorant to state that these measurements were all based off of the prime meridian when it was never mentioned in the example i saw.

in fact i chose not to ignore the example i saw. which first pointed to the measurements around the globes circumference, absent the prime meridian being thrown in for confusion, and then showed how even on the flat map the golden mean was also present, also absent of the prime meridian as an influential measurement. how is that relying only on a flat map? how is that basing it off of the prime meridian?

again, people are citing the 1000 wrongly presented hypothesis in order to support their argument against the 1 sound argument they have not even fairly investigated.

in all fairness, equal presentation must be made for every argument before a counter proposal is given. in scientific terms if it is repeatable without flaw or variation then it becomes established fact. we are not talking about trying to fit results, but taking the same measurements and observing that the results are the same over and over.

often times we will find truth even in a poorly presented fact, and in spite of the poor presentations of it, there will undoubtedly be at least one that is presented soundly. so why do we insist on discarding the sound argument because the other arguments that did not present the hypothesis or facts correctly were unsound.

that is like saying that we should discard jihad because it has been misrepresented by misguided Muslims.

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Submitters / Code 19 / Re: mathematical code

« on: February 20, 2011, 05:13:05 PM »

Investigate before posting/propagating nonsense and thank those like Ayman who help bring you out of ignorance.

excuse me but i had no idea he was trying to bring me out of ignorance, and as far as i saw the video showed not only the flat measurements but also on the circumference of the globe. but people keep saying the only measurements were on the flat map. also the measurements i saw represented were from the magnetic poles and the measurement where that line intersects the city of mecca and goes around the girth of the globe. far from flat. and these measurements have nothing to do with the prime meridian either. it is not even mentioned.

and i dont feel right about thanking anyone but the creator for bringing me out of ignorance, i will thank someone for helping me with information, but deliverance is from the creator. almost sounds as if you want me to worship ayman.

4

General Issues / Questions / Re: the 5 pilars and what they teach

« on: February 20, 2011, 04:39:57 PM »

Joseph,

correct me if i am wrong but it seems that you are taking the '5 pillars of islam'  invented by men and you are trying to rationalize them within the context/framework of the Quran asking what is wrong with having 5 pillars as they don't contradict the quran and isn't it a way of applying core quranic principles?  

by the way, you could make head cover/burka as a pillar of islam as certainly wearing a head cover doesn't contradict the quran and if anything is a way of applying quranic principles of morality/modesty and such.   might as well make it 6 pillars of islam for a woman.  if a woman wants to convert to islam, in addition to 5 pillars she will be told it is obligatory upon her to wear a 'hijab'.  

you can take anything from growing a beard to splitting hair and state that you are not doing anything contradictory or wrong.  but just because something is not wrong, does it make it right and these practices that are not wrong, do they define Islam?  or a muslim? are they pillars or fundamentals of Islam?  

there's nothing wrong with the shahada.  it is a statement of fact.  there's nothing wrong with praying 5 times a day, fasting, charity, hajj, growing a beard, hijab, etc.   but if i don't say the shahada, say salat, fast, give zaka, or do hajj - what does that make me?   not a muslim?  or a 'practicing' muslim?  

here's where i have problems with:  
   1) stating that islam is built on these pillars.    
   2) that the 5 pillars are obligatory on every muslim adult - the way that they have been established by people.  

i don't see anything wrong in stating the fact that muhammad is a messenger, nothing wrong in asking God to have mercy and blessing prophet muhammad and his family although doesn't make much sense to me but again nothing wrong.   you are not contradicting the quran but is it right to state that the salat as established and practiced is one of the fundamentals of islam and is obligatory on every muslim adult?  

by the way, you can say salat 10 times a day and it won't contradict the quran and saying it 10 times a day will really teach you discipline and consistency alright!  would it not?  so why don't you?  what's wrong with that?   get my point, know where i am going with this.  

does the quran lay down these pillars as fundamentals of islam?   no, the koran does not. but people have and many a books have been written about salat, fasting, zakat extolling the virtues, benefits and such.    people have taken somethings from the Koran and ran with it making it out to be something else.  this is where i have issues with.  

ok i was done with this, but i guess you too had to jump on the bandwagon and assume i was trying to rationalize something.

maybe i didn't make my self clear enough.

i saw some core principles within what i have learned are the institutionalized practices of the secularized/ ritualized version of Islam, and i was struggling with how can i fulfil my "duties" in islam and still reconcile it with work. therefore i wanted to find core principles that maybe i could somehow learn in other ways instead of being enslaved to the 5 pillars. i may not have started out the thread the way someone wants to hear, but this was my aim. nothing more nothing less. yes sometimes i cant figure out the best way to word or introduce a subject, but eventually i was guided by fellow truth seekers and the matter is solved.

there, satisfied?

thanks for beating a dead horse.

lets just drop the subject already, i was guided to the correct answer and i dont need anyone beating me over the head with imagined "rationalization"

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General Issues / Questions / Re: the 5 pilars and what they teach

« on: February 20, 2011, 02:17:25 PM »

Salaam Joseph,

you did not read the link I gave previously in this thread, it seems you want to rationalize the religion manufactured upon the Deen of Islam, you cannot justify the religion with the Qur'an, the more you truly examine the Qur'an the more this would be the case, if you want to follow the religion of Islam the best opinion you have is to ignore the Qur'an beyond reading it out as a sound bites, and enjoy your religious activities.

Worship the stone building in the desert as the religious do, follow all the pillows of Islam selected to remove action and direction from Muslims, why struggle to rationalize what you already believe, the purpose of study and investigation is not the rationalization of dogma, it is to seek the truth, no matter if that truth transforms your beliefs into something new.

i quite agree, and this was the purpose for seeking a true answer. i am sorry i missed your link. i suppose i was too caught up in the other comments complaining about the actions of others that take the Hadith and Sunnah and Sharia and make silly requirements out of them. instead i wanted to see if indeed there was clear grounding in the Qur'an or not, and if the principles i saw in the practices had any merit at all.

that question has been answered, so now i can incorporate it into my understanding of truth. (collection was a poor choice of words, since it is not to be collected by practiced and applied)

this link you shared below also is the same thing i was trying to find out, and it agrees in the basic sense with what i was trying to explain in post 1.

http://servantofthelight.com/content/view/28/48/

i did not intend to try to justify anything at all, but find the truth. since that has been shown to me, the matter is settled.

and thank you for directing me to the link, it was very informative and knowledgeable.

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General Issues / Questions / Re: the 5 pilars and what they teach

« on: February 20, 2011, 12:59:29 PM »

peace Joseph,

There is no such things as "5 pillars of Islam" according to The Quran, but I will comment on the list provided, from my own studies:

NB: AQ = al quran


Re: shahadda
There is no need to declare anything to anyone. One could so if they wish of course. The core teaching if AQ is oneness: one God. In mindset and in action.

Re: salat
I have never read any article or book that gave a credible argument for salat meaning prayer according to AQ. Nor any credible argument for 3 or 5 times. I have read many desperate attempts however.
"salat" means "bond" http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htm

Re: Sawm
Abstinence.
Not just fasting.

Re: zakat
betterment
Not just charity.

Re: hajj
The hajj of AQ is vastly different to the hajj of traditional Islam.  "al hajj" is an event, most likely "symposium/conference/feast".

thank you for clarifying this and indeed the principles i was trying to point out do indeed fit with your list. that is all i wanted to discuss. so we are in agreement essentially. as far as the format, i dont really care what they are as long as it is firmly grounded in the Qur'an. finally someone seriously brought in the positive light instead of only finding fault, though rightly so, in the practices described.

thank you again.

this was especially helpful also.

http://www.astudyofquran.org/web/index.php?id=60,0,0,1,0,0

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General Issues / Questions / Re: the 5 pilars and what they teach

« on: February 20, 2011, 12:49:59 PM »

I did not negate the declaration of faith in God and I did not say there is anything wrong with it, I just have an issue with the traditional Sunni shahada that adds Muhammad.

So do you think it would be ok to just state the first part of the "shahada"? Or to use the phrase that is being used in the Qur'an whenever someone "converts" to Islam – Aslamtu lil rabb il alameen / I submit to the lord of the worlds?


I don't "magnify" any bad. I simply don't think hajj, particularly the way it is done today, is necessary and beneficial. Even if you chose to not perform all or some of the rituals, it is still a very expensive endeavour and I think the money could be better spent. Plus, your freedom of choice is somehow limited, for example, you can't escape the masses and the dangers of being in a HUGE group of people.

I know people who went and found it a great spiritual experience, and that is perfectly fine imho. Just stating my personal opinion. Anyway, there are many, many discussions about hajj on here already, so I don't think it makes much sense to go through all this in detail.

 

then we do agree, its just the definition of terms we have issue over. the common names for these things can still be used even if they are not performed in the Sunni format.

and i also agree, if one cannot afford to go to Hajj, or they dont go period, it doesnt mean they are going to hell. it is recommended to go and in Muhammads day it was even easier for him to go considering todays millions that are crowded there, but i was simply trying to find the meaning if any that can still be found in the practices, not to impose sunni tradition on anyone. i myself do not even care for most Hadith, Sunnah, or even the compilations of those into the bulk of Sharia law. i simply look into the Qur'an. everything else is confusing.

8

Introduce Yourself / Re: How i came to find the truth

« on: February 20, 2011, 12:47:02 PM »

I'm German, and while I'm far from being patriotic, I do sometimes get a bit defensive of my country.

ach du leiber!

well i have to say i did enjoy the country, especially hiking through the woods or visiting ruins.

it was a lot of fun while i was there, for the most part.

but not all of it was fun. it was the same place i was deployed to Bosnia from, and the same place i met my ex-wife, so there are sad memories too.

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Introduce Yourself / Re: How i came to find the truth

« on: February 20, 2011, 09:00:56 AM »

really its far from las vegas, but to a young stupid American, it would not really seem any different, but later i saw how different it was after we got to explore the city more and get away from the pubs and bars.

why get offended? this was neither a personal slight against you or the city.

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General Issues / Questions / Re: the 5 pilars and what they teach

« on: February 20, 2011, 08:50:16 AM »

again you are pointing out what is wrong with them as opposed to what is right. sure i dont agree with the idea of saying Muhammad is the prophet either, but to negate the declaration of faith in Allah because of it, is again throwing the baby out with the bathwater. there is nothing wrong with declaring you believe in Allah.

sure the Hajj has negative influence and goings on, but what can be done to correct that? simply not go? or rather try to fulfill the pilgrimage with no regard to the laundry list of added rituals? nobody says you have to do them all. again the Qur'anic basis is ignored and the bad is magnified. do you have no faith in Allah? if he wills it you can go in peace to Hajj and do pilgrimage in a way that pleases him and not man. Allah made a way for Muhammad to go to Hajj in his day, and he had to deal with hostile idol worshipers, so is Allah any less powerful today if we want to do the same?

so what is correct about these ideas? forget about what is wrong, we know what is wrong.

forget about Hadith, forget about what idiots have added to the Qur'anic examples of each and focus on what is right and good. what fits the principles of the Qur'an and what has Qur'anic basis. so far i still have not gotten an answer and only gripes about what is wrong with them. we know what is wrong with them. lets focus on what is right.