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Messages - Abdul-Hadi

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1
General Issues / Questions / Re: Are Non Quranists considered Kafir/Mushriks
« on: September 20, 2014, 07:34:15 PM »
Greetings and Peace, all  :group:

Salam,

How the Quranists categorize the Non-Quranists, are they Kuffar/Mushrikoon?

I don't subscribe to the title "Quranist," but the short answer is that there are monotheists and non-monotheists...and even those that are not currently monotheists can turn to monotheism ISA.

10:109 And follow what is being inspired to you and be patient until GOD judges. And He is the best of judges.


ALLAH knows best.

 :peace:

~Abdul-Hadi

2
Greetings and Peace, all  :group:

Salamun Alaikum.

Quran clearly rules out calling others besides Allah (7:194 is an example)... but what does calling someone other than Allah mean?

A. Praying to someone other than Allah;
B. Calling someone to wish peace/blessings for him;
C. Praying to Allah for someone else;
D. ALL of the above.

I believe it is only A. If B is also unacceptable - then our everyday exchange of salam / greetings with each other becomes unacceptable. If C is unacceptable - how come Quran recommend to pray for the parents etc.

If there are contrary opinions, please discuss with logic.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

If (B) occurs in prayer (or what is intended as prayer), then it would fall under the restrictions of (A). There is also a potential issue if a person takes it to be obligatory in the Deen to do something that is *not* obligatory (such as calling for peace to another)--isn't that just another way of taking partners? It wouldn't matter if it was hopping on one foot during prayer--if a person takes it to be obligatory without authority (and there is no Authority besides the Almighty) then it is shirk.

Is it recommended that we pray for others?

60:4 There has been a good example set for you by Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people: "We are innocent from you and what you serve besides GOD. We have rejected you, and it appears that there shall be animosity and hatred between us and you until you believe in GOD alone." Except for the saying of Abraham to his father: "I will ask forgiveness for you, but I do not possess any power to protect you from GOD." "Our Lord, we have put our trust in You, and we turn to You, and to You is the final destiny."

ALLAH knows best.

 :peace:

~Abdul-Hadi

3
Introduce Yourself / Re: Hello Everyone
« on: September 10, 2014, 06:40:08 PM »
Greetings and Peace, all  :group:

@Rama:  :welcome:

All problems have solutions, ISA. Talk with your loved ones, and consider issues in the light of time--if they will be important in 5 years, 50 years, and 500 years.

May ALLAH see fit to Guide all seekers.

 :peace:

~Abdul-Hadi

4
Greetings and Peace, all  :group:

There is a simple explanation. Look at the word that is often translated as "spouse." It appears that "mate" or "pair" is a better translation, and these are gender neutral. Plants and livestock don't have spouses, and the same word root is used. The use of the word "their" in 70:30 changes azwājan into azwājihim; the meaning is unchanged. A quick example:

2:6 These are the ones guided by their Lord [rabbihim], and these are the successful ones.

Notice how the word rabbi is modified into rabbihim by the use of "their?" In this same way, azwājan is modified into azwājihim.

Also, based on 4:25, same-sex marriage is permitted because it is beyond what is prohibited; it is indeed possible for same-sex people to be married/spouses--so even ~if~ 70:30 refers solely to spouses, it does not exclude homosexuals.

Peace All.

Translate this summary from Qoran and you have your answer folks?:


70:29
وَالَّذينَ هُم لِفُروجِهِم حٰفِظونَ
70:30
إِلّا عَلىٰ أَزوٰجِهِم أَو ما مَلَكَت أَيمٰنُهُم فَإِنَّهُم غَيرُ مَلومينَ

70:31
فَمَنِ ابتَغىٰ وَراءَ ذٰلِكَ فَأُولٰئِكَ هُمُ العادونَ


GOD bless you all.
Peace.

4:25 And the independent from the women, except those maintained by your oaths; the book of GOD over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be independent, not for illicit sex. As for those whom you have already had joy with, then you shall give them their dowries as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree on after the obligation. GOD is Knowledgeable, Wise.

6:143 Eight in [azwājin]: from the lambs two, and from the goats two. Say: "Is it the two males that He forbade or the two females, or what the wombs of the two females bore? Inform me if you are truthful!"

20:53 The One who made for you the earth habitable and He made ways for you in it, and He brought down water from the sky, so We brought out with it [azwājan] of vegetation of all types.

35:11 And GOD created you from dust, then from a seed, then He made you into [azwājan]. And no female becomes pregnant, nor gives birth, without His knowledge. Nor does anyone have his life extended, or his life is shortened, except in a record. This is easy for GOD.

42:11 Initiator of the heavens and the earth. He created for you from among yourselves [azwājan], and also [azwājan] for the livestock so they may multiply. There is nothing that equals Him. He is the Hearer, the Seer.

70:29 And those who keep covered their private parts.
70:30 Except around [azwājihim] or those maintained by their oaths, there is no blame.
70:31 Whoever seeks anything beyond this, they are the transgressors.

78:8 And We created you in [azwājan]?


ALLAH knows best.

 :peace:

~Abdul-Hadi

5
Greetings and Peace, all  :group:

My comments are in red.

Peace Abdul-Hadi,

<snip>

Adultery is, however, by state law in the Western world not regarded as a crime, so there is no way you can legally punish someone for doing adultery. It was decriminalized many years ago in most developed countries. Thus punishing someone for adultery is literally taking the law into your own hands, which is a crime in itself. Adultery is hence an immoral action and a shame, but not on criminal level so that you can punish someone. Adultery is still considered a very foul and distasteful act and the person is often punished indirectly by being regarded a person of low standard by people who have not fallen away from God completely.

Adultery is no longer criminalized under state law, however...in some states, an aggrieved spouse can sue for alienation of affection. Also, under the UCMJ (military), adultery is still criminal.

<snip>

But please do not involve punishments for immorality and zina into this discussion. It is just that path Satan wants us to take, to bring the law into our own hands because we detest this phenomenon with homosexuality. So many women have been stoned to death already in history and now it is the gays' turn?

The actual word used means immorality (not homosexuality), but what I was trying to convey was without 4 witnesses, a "righteous"  ::) person can't apply lashes or any other punishment. There is not much chance of having 4 witnesses.

Be whole

@recite: I agree that we should not make claims that aren't true; the Qur'an does not state that homosexual acts are okay, so we should not say that the Qur'an states that. On the other hand, the Qur'an does not state the opposite. In any case, even if homosexual acts are allowed, this does not mean that promiscuity or lustful acts are encouraged.

May ALLAH see fit to Guide all seekers.

 :peace:

~Abdul-Hadi

6
Greetings and Peace, all  :group:

Here is an argument in list form. ISA it may make for easier reading.

Acknowledge that AQ is not ridiculous.

Acknowledge that physical evidence is not ridiculous.

Refute that ALLAH created people with differences, as is stated in AQ 30:22.

Refute that ALLAH gave us signs in nature, as is stated in AQ 2:26 and 2:164.

Refute that ALLAH created homosexual animals, as are found in nature.

Refute that AQ 29:29 lists reasons aside from male homosexuality that the people of Lot might have been destroyed.

Refute that there is no compulsion in the Deen, as is stated in AQ 2:256.

Refute that homosexuality is depicted in cave paintings that physically exist that have been dated to be around 12,000 years old.

Refute that homosexuality existed at least 5,000 years ago among humans in Mesopotamia, as is found among physical existing evidence.

Refute that the people of Lot were destroyed around 1953 BCE.

Refute that circa 3000 BCE is before 1953 BCE.

Refute that over a thousand years span the time between the recorded homosexual acts in Mesopotamia and the time that the people of Lot were destroyed.

Refute that AQ 7:80 refers to lewdness "such as none of the worlds had done before."

Acknowledge that no person alive was present among the people of Lot.

Refute that AQ 17:36 states not to uphold what one has no knowledge of.

Acknowledge that physical evidence can comprise knowledge.

Acknowledge that knowledge is better than conjecture.

4:24 And the independent from the women, except those maintained by your oaths; the book of GOD over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be independent, not for illicit sex. As for those whom you have already had joy with, then you shall give them their dowries as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree on after the obligation. GOD is Knowledgeable, Wise.   

Refute that a homosexual relationship is beyond this.

7:81 "You are approaching the men out of desire instead of the women! Indeed, you are a transgressing people."

Refute that approaching people lustfully (men or women) is transgression.

4:15 And those of your women who commit lewdness [l-fāḥishata], you shall bring four witnesses over them from among you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death terminates their lives, or GOD makes for them a way out.

Refute that even if l-fāḥishata means homosexual acts, no punishment is applied without four witnesses.

Acknowledge that the Qur'an is fully detailed and enough for a believer.

ALLAH knows best.

 :peace:

~Abdul-Hadi


7
Greetings and Peace, all  :group:

My understanding is that homosexuality is not against the Deen. My understanding is that homosexual acts in and of themselves are also not against the Deen.

Here are the reasons why:

The people of Lot were approaching other people out of lust. It isn't permissible to approach other people out of lust regardless of sexual orientation.

7:81 "You are approaching the men out of desire instead of the women! Indeed, you are a transgressing people."

27:55 "You are approaching the men out of desire instead of the women! Indeed, you are an ignorant people."


The (men among) the people of Lot left their wives for homosexual activity. Sexual liaison with other than a spouse (for one married) is called adultery, and adultery is a gross sin.

17:32 And do not come near adultery, for it is lewdness and an evil path.

The people of Lot engaged in a practice never seen before. Some people rationalize and say that this refers to a practice not seen before in a civilization, but homosexuality in Mesopotamia predates the people of Lot by at least 1000 years based on existing physical evidence--and that was a civilized society.

http://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48931527.html

http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/lds/meridian/2003/abraham.html


The people of Lot also engaged in highway robbery and other vice.

29:29 "You sexually approach men, and you commit highway robbery, and you bring all vice to your society." But the only response from his people was to say: "Bring us the retribution of GOD, if you are being truthful!"

In all species that reproduce sexually, homosexuality has been found. It is prevalent in nature. It is a given that we aren't to emulate animals--but the fact that is found in ALL sexually producing species is telling. We are even told that the Almighty doesn't shy away from the example of a mosquito--and there are homosexual mosquitos.

"... No species has been found in which homosexual behaviour has not been shown to exist, with the exception of species that never have sex at all, such as sea urchins and aphis. Moreover, a part of the animal kingdom is hermaphroditic, truly bisexual. For them, homosexuality is not an issue."

source: http://www.news-medical.net/news/2006/10/23/20718.aspx

Additional links:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_behavior

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals

http://www.amazon.com/Biological-Exuberance-Homosexuality-Diversity-Stonewall/dp/031225377X


2:26 GOD does not shy away from putting forth the example of a mosquito, or anything above it. As for those who believe, they know that it is the truth from their Lord. As for the rejecters, they say: "What does GOD intend with this example?" He strays many by it, and He guides many by it; but He only strays by it the wicked.

http://www.biolbull.org/content/149/2/365.short

http://rierc.org/social/paper162.pdf


ALLAH has created gay animals, including gay humans.  Homosexuality has not put a spanner in the works, yet--in any known species.  It may have even created some advantages in nature.

"In some cases, homosexual alliances may even be adaptive, helping individuals defend territories, advance their social status, or get help with parental care."

-- Australian biologist Geoff MacFarlane in a new study of gay birds' behavior spanning 93 species of birds.

http://www.nature.com/news/2010/100709/full/news.2010.344.html

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003347210001855


Modern science and medicine recognize homosexuality as being normal.

17:36 And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and heart, all these you are responsible for.

39:18 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom GOD has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.


The longstanding consensus of the behavioral and social sciences and the health and mental health professions is that homosexuality per se is a normal and positive variation of human sexual orientation (Bell, Weinberg & Hammersmith, 1981; Bullough, 1976; Ford & Beach 1951 ; Kinsey, Pomeroy, & Martin, 1948; Kinsey, Pomeroy, Martin, & Gebhard, 1953 ).

http://www.apa.org/about/governance/council/policy/sexual-orientation.aspx


However, even IF homosexuality was some "deformity"...

48:17 There is no burden on the blind, nor is there any burden on the cripple, nor is there any burden on the sick. And whoever obeys GOD and His messenger, He will admit them into gardens with rivers flowing beneath them; and whoever turns away, He will punish him with a painful retribution.

ALLAH has created people with differences, and this is okay.

30:22  And from His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference of your tongues and your colors. In that are signs for the world.

53:32 They avoid major sins and lewdness, except for minor offences. Your Lord is with vast forgiveness. He has been fully aware of you since He initiated you from the earth, and while you were embryos in the wombs of your mothers. Therefore, do not ascribe purity to yourselves; He is fully aware of the righteous.


There is also the fact that we aren't to be ugly to others:

4:36 And serve GOD and do not set up anything with Him, and do good  to the parents, and the relatives, and the orphans, and the needy, and the neighbor who is a relative, and the neighbor nearby, and the friend nearby, and the wayfarer, and those maintained by your oaths. GOD does not love the arrogant, the boastful.

4:86 And if you are greeted with a greeting, then return an even better greeting or return the same. GOD is Reckoning over all things.

4:94 O you who believe, if you go forth in the cause of GOD, you shall investigate carefully. And do not say to those who greet you with peace: "You are not a believer!"  You are seeking the vanity of this world; but with GOD are many riches. That is how you were before, but GOD graced you, so investigate carefully. GOD is expert over what you do.

2:44 Do you exhort the people to do good, but forget yourselves, while you are reciting the Book? Do you not comprehend?

49:11 O you who believe, let not any people ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names; miserable indeed is the name of wickedness after attaining faith. And anyone who does not repent, then these are the transgressors.

10:109 And follow what is being inspired to you and be patient until GOD judges. And He is the best of judges.

5:8 O you who believe, stand for GOD and be witnesses for justice, and let not the hatred towards a people make you avoid being just. Be just, for it is closer to righteousness, and be aware of GOD. GOD is expert over what you do.

2:256 There is no compulsion in the system; the proper way has been clarified from the wrong way. Whoever rejects evil, and believes in GOD, indeed he has taken grasp of the strongest hold that will never break. GOD is Hearer, Knower.


There is even Qur'anic evidence that same sex marriage is allowed.

4:24 Forbidden for you are your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and the sisters of your father, and the sisters of your mother, and the daughters of your brother, and the daughters of your sister, and your foster mothers who suckled you, and your sisters from suckling, and the mothers of your women, and your step-daughters who are in your lodgings from your women with whom you have already consummated the marriage; if you have not consummated the marriage then there is no sin upon you; and those who were in wedlock with your sons who are from your seed, and that you join between two sisters except what has already been done. GOD is Forgiving, Merciful.

4:25 And the independent from the women, except those maintained by your oaths; the book of GOD over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be independent, not for illicit sex. As for those whom you have already had joy with, then you shall give them their dowries as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree on after the obligation. GOD is Knowledgeable, Wise.

4:26 And whoever of you cannot afford to marry the independent female believers, then from those maintained by your oaths of the believing young women. And GOD is more aware of your faith, some of you to each other. You shall marry them with the permission of their parents, and give them their dowries in kindness - to be independent - not for illicit sex or taking lovers. Until they become independent, any of them who comes with an immorality shall have half of what is the punishment for those who are independent. This is for those who fear hardship from among you. But if you are patient it is better for you, and GOD is Forgiver, Merciful. 


A strong argument can be made that those who deter same sex marriages are encouraging fornication and adultery. :&

23:5 And they keep covered their private parts.

23:6 Except around their mates, or those who are maintained by their oaths, they are free from blame.


The word mates is gender neutral, by the way.

My position is one of inclusion.  Homosexuals are welcome in the Deen.  If a person wants to exclude others from the Deen, they'd better be VERY sure about their reasons and grounds for doing so--sure enough to risk damnation on the Day of Judgment.  Choose wisely.  We are not to oppress anybody, not even those that clearly fall outside of the Deen.

6:116 And if you obey most of those on the earth they will lead you away from the path of GOD; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.

42:42 The error is upon those who oppress the people, and they aggress in the land without cause. For these will be a painful retribution.


ALLAH knows best.

 :peace:

~Abdul-Hadi





8
General Issues / Questions / Re: Some questions by a 'Sunni'
« on: May 12, 2014, 02:22:17 PM »
Greetings and Peace, all  :group:

Salam, Brother!

Thank you! May Allah bless you!

Can you please comment on this if you can:

Then follow your advice and reject
all knowledge of the Arabic language which Quran needs in order for people to understand it.
This is because language is preserved in lexicons,dictionaries,
writings,and memories all transmitted and authored by men.
Likewise you must reject the very
"history" which caused you to come to your conclusions,for it too
is "merely the sayings, interpretations, and teaching of men",-lastly you must reject all of
your own conclusions from Quran.
Since your own conclusions are merely sayings,interpretations and teaching from yourself- a fallible man".


It is understood from reading AQ that AQ contains all that is needed for the Deen. If one wants to cook, pick up a cookbook--it has nothing to do with the Deen, and there is no problem in reading the cookbook, ISA. There *are* serious issues in confusing the cookbook with the Deen. Not everything on earth pertains to the Deen.

The point about language was addressed in the first few sentences...the part mentioning that words and word roots are used in multiple places in AQ, and can be used to verify meanings. Did the Almighty promise to protect extra-Qur'anic hadith and state that there is no contradiction in them?  :hmm

I have no interest in history (as it applies to the Deen) that is not stated in AQ.

17:36 And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and heart, all these you are responsible for.

Consider what a person claims to witness in mainstream Islam. Contrast what AQ has to say about witnessing:

28:44 And you were not on the western slope when We decreed the command to Moses. You were not a witness.

How one chooses to live is an individual matter. What one earns for their choices is also an individual responsibility.

6:116 And if you obey most of those on the earth they will lead you away from the path of GOD; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.


Only the Almighty knows who did follow, who does follow, and who will follow the Guidance. For those that choose not to follow Guidance, for those that choose popularity/tradition/conformity instead: "Enjoy this life."

11:122 "And wait, for we are also waiting."

ALLAH knows best.

 :peace:

~Abdul-Hadi

9
General Issues / Questions / Re: Some questions by a 'Sunni'
« on: May 11, 2014, 01:24:07 PM »
Greetings and Peace, all  :group:

I find the Guidance to be timeless; it doesn't matter when the Qur'an was revealed...it doesn't influence the Deen one whit. The Protection of the Almighty is the best protection, and the Almighty Protects the Qur'an. Meanings of words can and do change, fortunately, most all of the words (or their roots) are found in different places in AQ. This means that AQ itself can be used to verify meanings. In terms of intent:

2:26 GOD does not shy away from putting forth the example of a mosquito, or anything above it. As for those who believe, they know that it is the truth from their Lord. As for the rejecters, they say: "What does GOD intend with this example?" He strays many by it, and He guides many by it; but He only strays by it the wicked.

6:115 And the word of your Lord has been completed with truth and justice; there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.

39:18 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom GOD has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.

44:58 We have thus made it easy in your language, perhaps they may take heed.


Having answered the above questions, I would pose a few to those who follow tradition.

If you truly take the Guidance of the Qur'an over extra-Qur'anic hadith, how do you reconcile following:

6:114  "Shall I seek other than GOD as a judge when He has sent down to you the Book fully detailed?" Those to whom We have given the Book know it is sent down from your Lord with the truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.

6:115  And the word of your Lord has been completed with truth and justice; there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.

7:185 Have they not looked at the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that GOD has created? Perhaps their time is drawing near; so in which narrative [ḥadīthin]  after this one will they believe?

16:89  And the Day We send to every nation a witness against them from themselves, and We have brought you as a witness against these. And We have sent down to you the Book as a clarification for all things, and a guidance  and a mercy and good tidings to those who have submitted.

25:30 And the messenger said: "My Lord, my people have deserted this Qur'an."

29:51 Is it not enough for them that We have sent down to you the Book that is being recited to them? In that is a mercy and a reminder for people who believe.

[/b]31:6  And from the people, there are those who will purchase a baseless narrative [lahwa l-ḥadīthi] with which to mislead from the path of GOD without knowledge, and to make it a mockery. These will have a humiliating retribution.


To recap: the Qur'an states that it is complete, fully detailed, a clarification for all things, without contradiction, without change in meaning, and enough for a believer. Any "Yes, but..." statements fall flat. Those who follow extra-Qur'anic hadith follow the ways of men instead of Guidance.

2:170 And if they are told: "Follow what GOD has sent down," they say: "No, we will follow what we found our fathers doing!" What if their fathers did not comprehend anything and were not guided?

To follow extra-Qur'anic hadith, one must first reject the Qur'an.

May ALLAH see fit to Guide all seekers.

 :peace:

~Abdul-Hadi

10
Peace Abdul-Hadi,

As you know context is very important when it comes to understanding the Quran, as I mentioned earlier,
the surah you quoted is titled "The Women" This is the context, It is not titled homosexuals.  The ayat 4/24
if read with preceding and succeeding verses becomes abundantly clear unless the reader decides for
personal reasons to alter their meaning.

God bless

   :peace:   

The problem that I have with using titles to define the content is that this is not done with all of the titles. Does "The Cow" give special meaning to the 2nd surah--or "The Bee" (which is mentioned exactly once in surah 16)?  :hmm There is much in surah 4 that does not pertain to women exclusively, look at 4:16 and 4:29 for instance. A title is NOT a context, context is better provided by the surrounding ayahs.

I find the immediate context to be of marriage and relationships, not women. Bear in mind that many same sex relationships are between women. Going along with the understanding that the context of surah 4 is women should also give the understanding that same sex relationships between women are clearly allowed.

Either same sex relationships are "what is beyond this," or they are not. It seems clear that they *are* "what is beyond this," especially if they aren't addressed.

ALLAH knows best.

 :peace:

~Abdul-Hadi

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