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Messages - Abdul-Hadi

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1
General Issues / Questions / Re: I'm back from the dead
« on: December 03, 2016, 08:03:34 PM »
Greetings and Peace, all  :group:

@Shadowscholar:  :welcome: back and please don't try to eat my brains! <zombie joke in reference to thread title>  :) Besides:

49:12 O you who believe, you shall avoid much suspicion, for some suspicion is sinful. And do not spy on one another, nor shall you backbite. Would any of you enjoy eating the flesh of his dead brother? You certainly would hate this. You shall observe GOD. GOD is Redeemer, Merciful.

Regarding being among a minority:

6:116 And if you obey most of those on the earth they will lead you away from the path of GOD; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.

Regarding why oppose? Many don't actively oppose, but choose to not blindly follow what we found others doing. Those who take the deen for a popularity contest or who blindly follow others are welcome to all of the consequences of their actions.

31:21 And if they are told: "Follow that which GOD has sent down." They say: "No, we will follow what we found our fathers doing." What if the devil had been leading them to the agony of Hell?

Most who don't mix extra-Qur'anic hadith with the deen prefer to be polite to others, and ISA to invite others to the deen. Since the people here come from all backgrounds and all countries, it doesn't make sense to bother/annoy others; people can and do change. No person is fit to be the spiritual judge of another--that is only for ALLAH.

41:33 And who is better in saying than he who invites to GOD, and does good works, and says: "I am one of those who have submitted."

41:34 Not equal are the good and the bad response. You shall resort to the one which is better. Thus, the one who used to be your enemy, may become your best friend.


If it is difficult sometimes to not be part of a much larger community, I think that is is merely a test and an honor to be tested. After all, humanity is not the goal--ALLAH is.

29:2   Did the people think that they will be left to say: "We believe" without being put to the test?

29:3   We had tested those before them, so that GOD would distinguish those who are truthful and so that He would know the liars.


Beg pardon if the following is redundant, ISA it may demonstrate why we cling so tightly to our beliefs:

2:2   This is the Book in which there is no doubt, a guide for the righteous.

4:82   Do they not reflect on the Qur'an? If it was from any other than GOD they would have found in it many a discrepancy.

6:114 "Shall I seek other than GOD as a judge when He has sent down to you the Book fully detailed?" Those to whom We have given the Book know it is sent down from your Lord with the truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.

6:115 And the word of your Lord has been completed with truth and justice; there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.

6:126 And this is the straight path of your Lord. We have fully detailed the revelations to a people who remember.

15:9   Indeed it is We who have sent down the reminder, and indeed it is We who will preserve it.

16:89 And the Day We send to every nation a witness against them from themselves, and We have brought you as a witness against these. And We have sent down to you the Book as a clarification for all things, and a guidance and a mercy and good tidings to those who have submitted.

25:30 And the messenger said: "My Lord, my people have deserted this Qur'an."

29:51 Is it not enough for them that We have sent down to you the Book that is being recited to them? In that is a mercy and a reminder for people who believe.

31:6   And from the people, there are those who will purchase a baseless narrative with which to mislead from the path of GOD without knowledge, and to make it a mockery. These will have a humiliating retribution.

39:23 GOD has sent down the best narrative, a Book that is similar, dual. The skins of those who are concerned towards their Lord shiver from it, then their skins and their hearts soften up to the remembrance of GOD. Such is the guidance of GOD; He guides with it whoever He wills. And for whoever GOD misguides, then none can guide him.

39:27 And We have put forth for the people in this Qur'an from every example, that they may take heed.


There are many threads detailed with this reasoning. The following is one example:

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606190.msg376364#msg376364

Those that claim that we "need" extra-Qur'anic hadith to explain things are like the people of Moses (peace upon all prophets) when instructed to slaughter a heifer. Our instructions are simple, easy, and few. There are many ways to pray, for instance--not just one way.

2:67   And Moses said to his people: "GOD orders you to slaughter a heifer." They said: "Do you mock us?" He said: "I seek refuge with GOD that I not be of the ignorant ones."

2:68   They said: "Call upon your Lord for us that He may clarify which it is." He said: "He says it is a heifer neither too old nor too young, an age between that. So now do as you are commanded."

2:69   They said: "Call upon your Lord for us that He may clarify what color it is." He said: "He says it is a yellow heifer with a strong color, pleasing to those who see it."

2:70   They said: "Call upon your Lord for us that He may clarify which one it is, for the heifers all look alike to us and we will, GOD willing, be guided."

2:71   He said: "He says it is a heifer which was never subjugated to plough the land, or water the crops, free from any blemish." They said: "Now you have come with the truth." And they slaughtered it, though they had nearly not done so.


May ALLAH see fit to Guide all seekers.

 :peace:

~Abdul-Hadi

2
Discuss Latest News/Events / Re: US Jews and Christians: Our True Enemy!
« on: December 03, 2016, 01:54:42 PM »
Greetings and Peace, all  :group:

Anyone online can read what is posted and some may not detect the intention or otherwise misunderstand--or even deliberately propagate what is written out of context to further a bad agenda.  Please be very deliberate in labeling sarcasm as such.  To some people, reading what is posted without understanding could flip a switch in their already troubled mind with potentially dangerous consequences.

It's all fun and games until somebody gets hurt. I'd hate to post something that pushes an angry or insane person to violence, or furthers propoganda against the deen or those that follow it. There is nothing wrong with what is said, it is just in the presentation...surely there is a better way of saying it?

5:69 Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Sabians, and the Nazarenes, whoever of them believes in GOD and the Last Day and does good works; then they will have nothing to fear nor will they grieve.

ALLAH knows best.

 :peace:

~Abdul-Hadi

3
General Issues / Questions / Re: Homosexuality LGBTQI and the deen
« on: November 26, 2016, 08:02:33 PM »
Greetings and Peace, all  :group:

My attempts to clarify are in red. My previous posts are in purple.

Four points for Abdul Hadi:

1. Please clarify:
Lot (Peace upon all Prophets) said that the people did an evil not seen before. Since he wasn’t addressed as being wrong, and homosexual acts in organized societies existed long before the people of Lot, this indicates that homosexual acts are not the main issue here.

If Prophets are addressed when they are wrong, because the Prophet Lot was not addressed when he said the people committed an immorality such as none of the worlds have ever done before, we can take his statement at face value. Sodom and Gomorrah (the towns of the people of Lot) were destroyed somewhere between 2067-1953 BCE. Homosexuality existed in organized society in Mesopotamia since at least 3000 BCE--around a thousand years before the destruction of the people of Lot. In less organized groups, homosexual acts occurred over 12,000 years ago. This is found in existing archaeological evidence. It follows that if Lot was correct, based on the existing archaeological evidence the immorality that he was addressing could not be homosexual acts.

2. Please clarify:
If one is being absolute in linking unrelated patterns, it could be argued that any society other than the people of Lot is a unique pattern and unrelated to the statements made by the Prophet Lot. It can be one way or the other, but not both at the same time.


You had stated that one cannot link an unrelated pattern. The people of Lot are unique and linking them (and what the Prophet Lot said to them) to any other people is linking an unrelated pattern.

3. I intentionally used the word 'refuted' as the inclusion of males to "what is beyond that" cannot be linguistically proven. It would stand as a major rhetorical anomaly if we were to expand the scope of the verse to include males.

Cannot be linguistically proved is not ~quite~ the same as concretely disproved. How can a major anomaly disprove, when major anomalies exist within creation? Without discounting the major rhetorical anomaly, the inclusion or exclusion remains neither proven nor disproven.

4. The retribution incurred by Lūṭ's people was as a direct consequence of their enticing his guests. The fact that his wife was also punished is unrelated to this particular event. I should also point out that the marital status of those who enticed Lūṭ's guests is unknown. As such, we cannot rule out—linguistically—the possibility of their being blinded purely on account of their homosexual tendencies.

The possibility exists. I was referring to the following ayat, where the people of Lot were destroyed. If the guests of Lot were women would the behavior of the people have been acceptable then?  :hmm

4:24 states “beyond this category” in the same way that anything larger than a specified measurement is beyond a distance. If the specified measurement is one mile, then two miles is beyond this distance. Two million miles is beyond this distance. Two million light years is also beyond this distance. Way beyond is still beyond.

If one accepts the Prophet Lot's statement at face value, it flies in the face of physical evidence if he was talking about homosexual acts; in other words, he wasn't about homosexual acts. If one doesn't accept the Prophet Lot's statement at face value, then it is unclear what exactly/specifically he was condemning.

If one cannot link unrelated patterns, then what the Prophet Lot said to his people applied only to those people--it has no basis for other humans in other societies or times. If, on the other hand, one can link unrelated patterns, then homosexual relationships are clearly beyond the restrictions mentioned and thusly allowed.

http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/article_attitude_wenham.html

Excerpt: From iconographic evidence dating from 3000 BC to the Christian era it is clear that homosexual practice was an accepted part of the Mesopotamian scene. This conclusion is confirmed by many literary and legal texts in which homosexual activity is mentioned.

ALLAH knows best.

 :peace:

~Abdul-Hadi

4
General Issues / Questions / Re: Homosexuality LGBTQI and the deen
« on: November 24, 2016, 08:17:23 AM »
Greetings and Peace, all

I just found an interesting article that pertains to this topic.

https://www.quora.com/Can-you-be-a-Muslim-and-gay

Excerpt from article:

***

With that said, Allah also makes it very clear in Quran 5:48 and 13:38-9 that the commandments of previous Prophets do not apply to Muslims unless Allah explicitly says so.

... Do not follow their whims, which deviate from the truth that has come to you. We have assigned a law and a path to each of you. If God had so willed, He would have made you one community, but He wanted to test you through that which He has given you, so race to do good: you will all return to God and He will make clear to you the matters you differed about. Quran 5:48

We sent messengers before you and gave them wives and offspring; no messenger was given the power to produce a miracle except with God’s permission. There was a Scripture for every age: God erases or confirms whatever He will, and the source of Scripture is with Him. Quran 13:38-39

So when Allah mentions that previous Prophets ordered fasting, he makes a special point of clarifying that the order also applies to Muslims:

You who believe, fasting is prescribed for you, as it was prescribed for those before you, so that you may be mindful of God. Quran 2:183

Allah never reinforces Lot's comment about homosexuality in this way. Instead, Allah explains that the story of Lot and other Prophets are provided to highlight how previous nations ignored their messengers as the people of Mecca were ignoring Muhammad. Allah is reassuring Muhammad that his treatment by the Meccans is not unique and part of Allah's divine plan to warn the Meccans about the Day of Judgment:

We have told you [Prophet Muhammad] the stories of those towns: messengers came to them, and clear signs, but they would not believe in what they had already rejected—in this way God seals the hearts of disbelievers. We found that most of them did not honor their commitments; We found that most of them were defiant. Quran 7:101-102

But We lead on those who reject Our messages, step by step, without them realizing it: I will give them respite, but My plan is sure. Has it not occurred to them that their companion [Prophet Muhammad] is not mad but is giving clear warning? Have they not contemplated the realm of the heavens and earth and all that God created, and that the end of their time might be near? What [other revelation] will they believe in if they do not believe in this? Quran 7:182-185

***

An interesting perspective. I'll need to carefully consider it before accepting or rejecting it. Any thoughts, especially on the excerpted part?

ALLAH knows best.

 :peace:

~Abdul-Hadi

5
General Issues / Questions / Re: Homosexuality LGBTQI and the deen
« on: November 24, 2016, 08:05:05 AM »
    Greetings and Peace, all  :group:

Fair enough, but Allah says that believers are merciful towards one another and stern against the disbelievers. We are encouraged to be firm against the disbelievers.
The believers enjoin good and forbid from the wrongdoing.

Therefore if it is clearly expressed in The Reading that homosexual acts are punishable and a prophet is repeatedly given (by Allah) dialogue condemning it and unfaced individuals on the internet oppose what reason and faith guide to, it is inevitable for those of Iman and higher interpreting/reading/ knowledge capability to oppose you with firmness and distaste.

Is it not possible then that the unpleasantness you are receiving is a result of your wrongdoing in supporting a sin or propagating that transgression is permissible, while twisting your own logic and reasoning in search for loopholes?

Believers don't like that and they are going to be firm against wrongdoing like they are commanded.

As kindly as this can be said I advise that YOU should be more concerned with propagating ideas that are incompatible with the deen rather than the few believers responding appropriately(firmly) against those propagating wrongdoing.


PS give me a little more time I should be a little free tomorrow perhaps[/list]

@HP_TECH

IF it were expressed in the Qur'an that homosexuals are disbelievers, and-it-is-not-expressed-despite-your-desires, then believers would be expected to treat homosexuals with firmness. Even then, not without justice and not with nastiness. Those who create lies about ALLAH will not be successful! 

I am receiving no unpleasantness, except in what should be reasoned dialogue on this forum, from some of those who claim to be believers. Truly, ALLAH knows best who is a believer and who is not. Saying that I support a sin is nastiness, saying that I propogate that transgression is permissable is nastiness, claiming that I twist logic is nastiness, and calling reasoning and individual understanding a "search for loopholes" is disrespectful as well. If you are a believer, then why do you exhibit nastiness and disrespect, and why do you attribute lies to ALLAH?  :hmm

You will follow your desires, ISA. Enjoy this life!

May ALLAH see fit to Guide all seekers.

 :peace:

~Abdul-Hadi

6
General Issues / Questions / Re: Homosexuality LGBTQI and the deen
« on: November 23, 2016, 07:06:13 PM »
    Greetings and Peace, all  :group:

    Thank you for the quality of your post, uq. My comments (within quote) are in red.
...
  • Although I agree with the view that messengers were susceptible to error, whenever they do err, their error is marked out as being wrong and God addresses it; this is not the case with Lūṭ's condemnation of homosexuality.

Lot (Peace upon all Prophets) said that the people did an evil not seen before. Since he wasn’t addressed as being wrong, and homosexual acts in organized societies existed long before the people of Lot, this indicates that homosexual acts are not the main issue here.

  • The argument that "what is beyond that" in 4:24 includes in its scope males is refuted. One cannot link an unrelated pattern to the pattern found in 4:23. That is to say, the pattern found in 4:23 relates to females, and the addressees are assumed to be men, how then do we relate males to the sequence of females mentioned in the verse? If this rule didn't hold fast, then one could make the argument, using the same principles, that one's male relatives have not been prohibited in marriage based on the fact that this verse does not mention them, and this then restricts the scope of 4:23 to female incest, whereas male incest, using this logic, is permissible. So I disagree with the notion that "what is beyond that" in 4:24 includes males (related or unrelated) in its scope.

Refuted is a strong statement--maybe argued/disputed is meant? If one is being absolute in linking unrelated patterns, it could be argued that any society other than the people of Lot is a unique pattern and unrelated to the statements made by the Prophet Lot. It can be one way or the other, but not both at the same time.

Are same-sex incest among consenting adults even a common issue, or one that needs societal scrutiny? Biological defects in offspring could not be an issue, because biological offspring wouldn't be possible. Would a consenting woman of age be forbidden from marrying her widowed mother under 4:23--or would it not apply because (under some understandings) it is addressed solely to men? :hmm


  • In 54:37 we read that the people of Lūṭ were punished as a direct result of their having enticed his guests: ولقد راودوه عن ضيفه فطمسنا أعينهم فذوقوا عذابى ونذر And verily by [God], they had enticed him to turn from his guests, so we blinded them; taste My punishment and My warnings! The reader is left to ponder the consequence of this verse.

Was Lot's wife homosexual? She was of the doomed, as were other women and children. The people also challenged the Almighty in 29:29...

29:29 "You approach the males, and you sever the way, and you bring all vice into your place." But the only response from his people was to say: "Bring us the retribution of GOD, if you are being truthful!"

  • The phrase أتأتون الرجال شهوةً من دون النساء means (rough translation) Will you indeed lie with men out of lust to the exclusion of women? This is a statement attributed to Lūṭ in 7:81. I wanted to make its meaning clear as there seemed to be some confusion regarding its meaning.

Is it okay to lie with (or attempt to lie with) women out of lust? Whether in lustful fornication or by excluding their spouses in adulterous lust, the men were surely in the wrong.

  • Even still, all provisions relating to marriage, dowry, divorce, children, nursing children and inheritance speak within the context of a man-woman relationship. The lack of provisions relating to homosexual marriage, dowry, divorce etc. leaves homosexuals wanting for guidance from God.

The provisions provide protections that may not be necessary within a same sex relationship--which may be two women or two men.

To sum up, although God has issued no explicit prohibition against homosexuality, the tone of the Quran, as far as I can see, towards homosexuality is certainly not one of complete impassivity, and tends to lean towards considering it a sin.

The onus would lie on each individual to disimpassion their minds and to objectively assess the verses and pass his or her judgment on the matter.
If one thinks a thing distasteful (and it is not required ;)) then avoid it for oneself. Others may not find the same thing distasteful, and we shouldn't be unpleasant or unjust because of a differing of opinion.

Avoiding being unpleasant to others isn't the same as promoting any viewpoint/understanding, and being nasty to others is incompatible with the deen.

ALLAH knows best.

~Abdul-Hadi

7
General Issues / Questions / Re: Homosexuals in your country.
« on: November 22, 2016, 09:15:47 PM »
Greetings and Peace, all  :group:

I'd be more concerned about being a dictator than about what to do with homosexuals. :&

I'd cease issuing marriage licenses by the state and make all future licences civil unions instead. Consenting adults of any sexual orientation could receive a civil union. It would be up to individual citizens (if they so desired) to marry according to their beliefs at an institution of their choice. Civil unions would be recognized at all levels of government as official and binding.

Polygamy would be legal.

Prostitution would be legal.

Fornication would be legal.

Violating a marriage or civil union would be a criminal and civil offense.

Rape or forcible sodomy would at a minimum result in permanent exile. Child molestation would be punishable by death.

Other than that, not much that I can think of at this time. I'd legalize many things that are currently illegal or restricted. Activities that threaten public safety or undermine society would be dealt with severely. It is a waste of public resources to criminalize some offenses. ALLAH is sufficient as a Judge.

ALLAH knows best.

 :peace:

~Abdul-Hadi

8
General Issues / Questions / Re: Homosexuality LGBTQI and the deen
« on: November 21, 2016, 08:06:24 PM »
Greetings and Peace, all  :group:

My comments in red.

Most of what you say isnt right. We already have rules for adultery in later chapters.

And the other rules cover adultery between heterosexual adulterers. The Qur'an, being complete, in these ayat cover adultery between homosexual adulterers.

And you didnt answer why it says "the two men". Its really about homosexuals

See above answer. It is about homosexuals--but not primarily about homosexuality. It is what the homosexuals are doing and not the homosexuality that is the bigger picture.

Then you continue to say "lustful". No, because we are told they approach men instead of women, meaning God is saying about relationships. Would God say to approach women instead of men lustfully? But we already know the rules regarding approaching women outside marriage.

Were they approaching to sell fresh produce? That it was lustful is key, that spouses are forgetting their marriage to pursue lust is the main idea and that it was towards other men is description.
Look at 2:187 and compare it with 22:165. Notice any glaring differences?

2:187 It has been made permissible for you during the night of fasting to approach [l-rafathu] your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. GOD knows that you used to betray your souls so He has accepted your repentance, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what GOD has written for you. And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in the temples. These are the boundaries of GOD, so do not transgress them. It is thus that GOD clarifies His revelations to the people that they may be righteous.

26:165 "Do you approach [atatūna] the males of the worlds?"

Also for comparison:

6:151 Say: "Come let me recite what your Lord has forbidden for you: that you should not set up anything with Him; and do good to your parents; and do not kill your children for fear of poverty, We provide for you and for them; and do not come near [taqrabū] immorality, what is public of it and private; and do not kill the life, as GOD has forbidden this, except in justice. That is what He enjoined you that you may comprehend."

ALLAH knows best.

 :peace:

~Abdul-Hadi

9
General Issues / Questions / Re: Homosexuality LGBTQI and the deen
« on: November 20, 2016, 08:37:18 PM »
Greetings and Peace, all  :group:

If homosexual acts are allowed Abdul Hadi, then can you explain what the verses below mean and why God chose "the two men who commit it from among you" instead of like previous verse "tohse of your women who commit lewdness"?

4:15 
And those of your women who commit lewdness, you shall bring
four witnesses over them from among you; if they bear witness,
then you shall restrict them in the homes until death terminates
their lives, or God makes for them a way out.
4:16 
And  the  two  men  who  commit  it  from  among  you,  you  shall 
trouble them. If they repent and reform, then leave them alone.
God is Redeemer, Merciful.


Then can you also explain why in the story of Lot, we are told the men approach the men instead of women (clearly this is relationship and not rape as God forbids approaching a woman sexually if not married)

It's VERY clear that God isn't saying rape women instead of men with verses below, but He's saying about men having relationship with other men instead of women. You are clearly astray to promote homosexual acts!

26:165  “Do you approach the males of the worlds?”
26:166  “And you leave what your Lord has created for you of mates? You
are an intrusive people!”
26:167  They said: “If you do not cease O Lot, you will be among those
driven out.”
26:168  He said: “I am in severe opposition to your acts!”

Regarding 4:15-16...
If a person violates a marriage (adultery) in order to pursue sex outside the marriage with a man or a woman, then they are wrong. The Qur'an is complete, and notes that whether with the same sex or a different sex, adultery is wrong. If the adultery can be proven with witnesses, the adultery is also a crime. That's the simple explanation. Consider what can and can't, ISA, be reformed.

26:165 talks about approaching people, and the context is a lustful approach. People aren't approaching each other to extend greetings or shake hands here! :) It isn't right for a man to approach a woman or a man lustfully.

26:166 talks about leaving spouses (adultery).

While the word homosexual is never used in the Qur'an, the word translated as lewdness/immorality is used--usually for adultery.

http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=fH$#(4:15:3)

I don't promote sexual acts of any type--that's private business between two consenting spouses...and most people don't seem to need my help anyway! ;) I will state that I find no evidence that homosexual acts are forbidden between consenting married-to-each-other adults.

ALLAH knows best.

 :peace:

~Abdul-Hadi

10
General Issues / Questions / Re: Homosexuality LGBTQI and the deen
« on: November 19, 2016, 11:15:42 PM »
Greetings and Peace, all  :group:

you can sing with you brother /sister /uncle /wife
you can dance with your brother sister/uncle /wife                  (infront of everybody)
you can use computer with your brother/sister/uncle/wife

can you also do sex with your uncle /brother /sister /wife...?    only exception you have is with your wife .. and even with your wife you cannot do it openly like dancing singing and typing...


now come to to the basic part

you can sing/dance/type computer with your friend and there is nobody who will say you anything ...
if you do sex with your friend , how would his father /brother or everybody else feel?
will they stop you guys for doing it?


your examples are showing the stage of ultimate weakness of your claim ... very poor kinda example i have ever seen...

peace
god bless you towards right path
If the logic and evidences presented seem to weigh heavier on one side of an issue than another, it may be that way because it is true.
Are you saying that a thing is allowed only if expressly mentioned in matters dealing with sex, but in all other cases a thing is allowed if not disallowed? :rotfl: Apply the same standard to all things. Why the emphasis on sex, and who told you to do this?

A person can sing with a friend, dance with a friend, use a computer with a friend, and marry a friend. And once married, sexual relations are okay with that friend. Since homosexual acts can't produce offspring, homosexual incest between consenting adults is a (pardon the pun) nonissue.

How others might feel is unimportant when it comes to the deen. If two consenting adults want to form a permanent bond, any haters can step aside and hate--they aren't part of the relationship anyway. Life isn't a popularity contest, and following what the majority think is not necessarily a great plan.

6:116 And if you obey most of those on the earth they will lead you away from the path of GOD; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.

ALLAH knows best.

 :peace:

~Abdul-Hadi


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