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Questions/Comments on the Quran / Re: How sex before Marriage is not haram (prohibited) according to the Quran

« on: March 12, 2013, 11:43:13 AM »

All I can say is what's the purpose...you've been socially programmed by the current state of the society...If you love someone and want to be intimate then there is no reason why you shouldn't marry, if you don't love someone enough to get married than why be intimate?

Why is it necessary for them to get married before they can have sex?
Ok let's go with the idea of sex can only happen after marriage.

Let's say a couple decide to not to have sex until after they are married. Unfortunately for the guy, the girl was just marrying him for sex and nothing more. She has sex with him and then demands a divorce breaking the guy's heart.
In reverse let's say another couple also decide not to have sex until after they are married. Unfortunately for the girl, the guy was just using her for sex. Again another heartbreak.

How are the above scenarios less damaging than the idea of having sex before marriage?

If you love someone and want to be intimate, there is no reason why you should restrain yourself from what is a clear blessing and provision for humanity, (if done correctly). Just as one needs to exercise caution with regards to choosing the right marriage partner, one also needs to exercise caution with regards to whom they choose to engage in sexual activity with. Some may not be ready for sex until after 1 day, perhaps 1 month or maybe a year or even 10 years. The point is that when they are ready, they shouldn't restrict themselves for the wrong reasons. 

Based on the above, saying something like there isn't enough love between them because they are unwilling to get married therefore they should not have sex isn't a justified position in my opinion.

You probably don't have daughter or sister and you can't see things clearly...

I don't. I'm guessing you do. How would it make a difference for you if your daughter or sister got married before they had sex? What's the difference in the eyes of a father or brother?

Peace

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Questions/Comments on the Quran / Re: How sex before Marriage is not haram (prohibited) according to the Quran

« on: February 28, 2013, 10:37:02 AM »

So we see that surely sexuality and finance exchange is identical in the eyes of God, to the point that taking the finance out of a sexual relationship is considered a grave wrong, and consequently a kind of retroactive zina.

I agree that there is a clear wrong in giving up on a fiance to be with another girl and taking back what's been given to the fiance because most likely, with a finace there is intimacy as well as a solid oath in place. But I don't think this relates to the wrong of zina. Zina is illegal sex as far as I understand it.
 

4:20 (Asad) But if you desire to give up a wife and to take another in her stead, do not take away anything of what you have given the first one, however much it may have been. [21] Would you, perchance, take it away by slandering her and thus committing a manifest sin? [22]

The verse that follows this states: "And how can you take it when you have become intimate with each other, and they have taken from you a solemn covenant."

The important question is does sex necessarily entail intimacy anda solemn covenant
It doesn't necessarily entail a solemn covenant but it does necessarily entail intimacy.
From a purely logical perspective of 4:20-21, the idea of taking back what one has given to their partner only applies if and only if they have become intimate with their partner and made a solemn covenant with their partner. If either one of these two components are missing then the idea of not being able to take back what was given does not apply because the word and logically demands that both components be in place.

I do not agree with it being to do with children as the punishment on Zina is for illicit sex with no doubts, not children

I see your point. But the Quran's outline on the punishment of zina (illegal sex) and the the Quran's outline on when one should marry are two different things. Zina is the breaking of one of the most (if not the most) serious commitments one can make to another person. This is surely a punishable act. Having kids outside of marriage appears to be advised against in the Quran but not seen as a punishable act.

24:33 says that those who don't have the means for marriage, should abstain. Abstain from what? Having kids or having sex? Given that one can have sex without having kids and one can have kids without having sex, I think it more reasonable in the context of 24:33 to say that the Quran is advising against having kids outside of marriage rather than sex because having kids requires certain resources whereas sexual activity does not need certain resources. I think this fits well with 4:3

Contraception is not available to everyone, so are these to be left out?

Sexual activity can happen without contraception. So long as sperm is not directed at the female in anyway, the odds of pregnancy are 0% (unless there's a miracle). For extra safety if there is no contraception, I don't think there should be any penetration whatsoever.

 

it as surely there are many commands of God which only apply here and there to relevant people.

I completely agree. That's why we should neither add or take away from the commands.

Whatever is the case, we maintain that:

1.) Relationship must entirely be in the open
2.) Wealth must change hands from male to female
3.) Contract/witnesses is necessary, to prevent accusations of zina

1) I think I agree based on the notion of not meeting the women secretly.
2) Only in marriages this must become the case. I have not seen this be demanded outside of marriage. Even in a marriage it's not a must. It depends on the bride as far as I know.
3) Contract and witnesses is demanded in the case of when someone wants to get married. As far as I know, he demand of contract doesn't apply to other types of intimate relationships. Witnesses might be necessary in the sense that the relationship is not kept in secret. I think zina can only apply to a person who is already married or to someone who engages in sex with under-aged kids or other illegalities such as bestiality. If there are witnesses to those things, then there can be conviction of zina.

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Questions/Comments on the Quran / Re: How sex before Marriage is not haram (prohibited) according to the Quran

« on: February 26, 2013, 01:26:49 PM »

Ma malekat aymunkum can translated "posses their right hand"

Posses their right hand is allogarical setence and its reffering to "slave/maid" if you read the whole ayah in Quran
Word "hand" means employee, this means  another "hand" of the boss to accomplish some works.

Quran itself contains some allogarical words/sentences, like verse 2:188 "... takulu (eat) your property..." this not means literally you eat your property.

In verse 23:6, if you look on entire ayah in the Quran again this slave means slaves who was liberated and already married with you

Quran never mentioned of any girlfriend-boyfriends things.
Slave in the Quran actually was slavery tradition in Arab in the past time and no courtship tradition in Arab in that time too.

We also ordered to meet non mahram woman with hijab/barrier : 33:53-5, also ordered to protect our wild gaze 24:30-1 37:48

I don't think slave/maid makes sense with regards to Quran's overall usage of the phrase Ma Malekat aymunkum. I also don't think it to morally make sense for us to understand MMA as slave/maid. Why would it be ok to have sex with our maids/slaves but not our girlfriend with whom there is mutual consent?

33:53-55 is about the prophet and his wives only. It doesn't make a distinction between mahram and non-mahram women as far as I can see.

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Questions/Comments on the Quran / Re: How sex before Marriage is not haram (prohibited) according to the Quran

« on: February 26, 2013, 01:16:06 PM »

I still do not agree with 'sex outside of marriage' esp. promiscuity. On the other hand I do have reason to believe that MMA could refer to fiances/"girlfriends".

If you take MMA to encompass finances or girlfriends, where is the prohibition on sexual activity with the MMA?
More importantly if you were to pin it down from A Quranic perspective, what constitutes sex? As in at what point could it be said that a couple have gone too far with regards to their physical interactions with each other?

In trying to answer the second question I came to the realisation that there is nothing in the Quran that conveys this sort of guideline. The only implication I got from the Quran is don't have kids until after marriage. Don't have illegal sex (zina) don't engage in lewdness (fahisha) such as sexual acts that involve degradation, fetishism and so on.

Given that you can have kids without having sex (sperm donors for example) I thought it necessary that the Quran's message regarding the purpose of marriage is for the sake of having kids rather than for the sake of sex.

So in my opinion, this answers how far one can go in terms of physical interactions with one's legitimate unmarried partner:

So long as the odds of having a child is 0%, and so long as the physical interaction involved is not lewd or illegal (for example someone who under the legal age to have sex) then the Quran's guidelines have been met.

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Questions/Comments on the Quran / Re: How sex before Marriage is not haram (prohibited) according to the Quran

« on: February 26, 2013, 12:38:12 PM »

To whomever posted this topic:
If you weren't socially programmed to think that getting married is long process and you need dozens of years to get to know someone before you marry them (if at all) and you should get married in your late 20 or 30, you would probably already be married and wouldn't be looking for justification for immorality.
My personal opinion is get married young and there would be no need for many kinds of question regarding dating or any other similar topic I see posted on this forum.

It's not a question of whether marriage is a short or long process. It's a question of whether marriage is necessary for engaging in sexual activity. From the thread I concluded that marriage is primarily for the sake of starting a family. Sex isn't for the sake of starting a family. So I don't see the need for marriage if all that was sought was sex.

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Questions/Comments on the Quran / Re: How sex before Marriage is not haram (prohibited) according to the Quran

« on: February 24, 2013, 03:08:46 PM »

@nimnimak_11 you must re-read verse 24:31

It says the woman wasn't allowed tho eksploit their private part or aurat to non mahram man except on the list

24:31 And tell the believing females to lower their gaze and keep covered their private parts, and that they should not reveal their beauty except what is apparent, and let them put forth their shawls over their cleavage. And let them not reveal their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or the sons of their brothers, or the sons of their sisters, or their women, or those maintained by their oaths, or the male servants who are without need, or the child who has not yet understood the composition of women. And let them not strike with their feet in a manner that reveals what they are keeping hidden of their beauty. And repent to God, all of you believers, that you may succeed.


I looked at it again. It is on the list.
One possible meaning of Ma malekat aymunkum= fiance, girlfriend concubine etc.

Peace

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Questions/Comments on the Quran / Re: How sex before Marriage is not haram (prohibited) according to the Quran

« on: February 14, 2013, 07:22:16 PM »

Ok brother, phew......got worried there for a while..... ............

nothing to worry about brother 

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Questions/Comments on the Quran / Re: How sex before Marriage is not haram (prohibited) according to the Quran

« on: February 14, 2013, 12:04:47 AM »

Well, the chance is that "sufficiently" would be defined according to the physical desire that the involved persons experience at the given time. And that level can be reached very quickly.

Depends on the individual. One person might think I really want this and refuse to take into account other potentially important considerations. Another individual might be more cautious and think something like although I really want this, it's too soon because I don't trust this person enough yet

If it becomes the case that sufficiently is primarily defined by physical desire but other important factors such as (is this person trustworthy, am I emotionally ready for this, have I/they got sufficient protection, etc.) then there is nothing wrong with following this physical desire IMO.

The hormones would define "sufficiently", leaving the rest of the brain on hold, and the risk is you'd end up regretting what has transpired, due to action without wisdom. Unfortunately, there is no undo-button in real life. Thinking with your d*** is not always the wisest thing, believe it or not.

The individual who's desire outweighs his/her rationality will inevitably suffer consequences if he/she forgoes reason for the sake of desire. This can happen in or out of marriage.

For example a married couple who aren't ready for a child both financially and mentally would be acting recklessly if they engaged in unprotected sex with each other.

Secondly, I wonder why people cannot feel the emotional connection that is created when you have sex with someone. The more people you "mix with", the more broken, emotional connections you'd have. Not good.

Some do, some don't. One of my friends who got married (this was sort of a forced marriage) lost her virginity to the guy she married and she said she hated it and felt humiliated. There was no connection there at all and this was her first time. I think that its all down to who sleeps with who and for what purpose they sleep with each other.
Because of this I really don't think that a person who has had many different partners would become so numb as to fail to love again or to engage in sex in an affectionate manner. It depends on what the person wants from sex and from the person they intend to have sex with.

Thirdly, I wonder why people are so afraid of getting married. Ok, young and inexperienced (immature) people would many times consider marriage as something too heavy for them... but why do they not hesitate to have sex with someone that they openly are having doubts about.

Deciding to marry someone is a much bigger decision than having sex with someone. The level of trust needed for marrying someone (commit to them for the rest of your life, split everything with them financially and so on) should be higher than sex. There are more factors to consider when deciding on marrying someone than when deciding on sleeping with someone.

It seems many people would like to both eat and keep the cookie. Sex, but freedom to change partner. This is, in my opinion, emotionally odd.

I don't think that the price of sex should be marriage. Even in a marriage (perhaps one of the most serious commitments anyone can make) you are still free to change partners so long as you first divorce.

Outside of marriage, the person who would quickly dump someone and move onto another person without consideration for the person they've dumped is acting selfishly. As does the person who marries for money then divorces immediately for the wrong reasons.

This would naturally vary tremendously from person to person and from time to time depending on a variety of reason such as e.g. mood, health, preoccupation with other things, physical activities, environment etc.

I agree.

One should think and act in a positive and constructive manner, whether it is about sex or not. Detrimental things should be avoided no matter what we are talking about.

I think so too.

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Questions/Comments on the Quran / Re: How sex before Marriage is not haram (prohibited) according to the Quran

« on: February 13, 2013, 11:06:34 PM »

I am sorry brother but I have to challenge you here.....What you are saying has absolutely no Qur reference at all. Or maybe your comments are not based on the Quran? Please respond, because if you derive your conclusions from Islam then I will be like

Challenge accepted (just kidding)

The gist of the replies towards T-hamzei weren't primarily in relation to what the Quran says. From what I read they looked more like personal opinions on sex. So I gave my personal opinions on the rights and wrongs of sex. My opinion takes into account my interpretation of Quran's guidelines on sex.

Points 1, 2 and 3 in my previous post are personal opinions on how to get the best out of sex and how not to transgress.

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Questions/Comments on the Quran / Re: How sex before Marriage is not haram (prohibited) according to the Quran

« on: February 12, 2013, 03:28:28 PM »

Hi all,

Thanks for your insight into the topic. I'm not one that has read the qur'an inside out and analysed it word for word so I'm looking for some answers here, although the internet may not be the best source.

In my opinion, people that are not accustomed to sex or not desensitised from the act may not find it lawful to do so or possibly aren't ready for it. With every good intention, others may not be in the position to marry, especially in western countries where a mixture of cultures and beliefs makes it difficult for the opposite sex to come together in marriage. I think it's also very important to make a distinction between rape and consensual sex as well, as the former is definitely prohibited.

Overall, humans were made in a certain way and when not in a position to marry, with every good intention, humans should be allowed to use their genitals and it's in good health to do so. Not using your genitals, especially at a mature age could make a person disfunctional behaviourally. Regular sex is also believed to release pheromones, that are important to interaction between the opposite sex and to initiate a relationship in the first place.

So yes, there are different perspectives from muslims that may not be in similar situations to other muslims, and very difficult I think to understand one another and interpret a set general law that applies to everyone in this case. Once again, in my opinion, especially to those who live in western countries and may not be part of a community in which you are in a position to marry, do not put yourself at a disadvantage. It is in good health, in the interest of your survival and in facing adversity to in fact have sex, exercise regularly, take care of your body, and prepare yourself for marriage as well as maintaining your health. What may be difficult to conceive is how to do that and not feel the slightest bit wrong about it, in following the rules of the religion, as that is also most important.

Hi t-hamzei

Regarding sex I think the important questions are:

1) When is it right to have sex    2) How much sex is the right amount   3) What sort of things should or shouldn't be done when having sex

As far as I know, no one here thinks of sex as wrong. Difference in opinion is on when it's right to have sex. For example some at one end of the spectrum might say that sex should only be done after marriage and only when one wants kids. At the other end of the spectrum some might say that sex should happen whenever one gets the opportunity.

Regarding 1, I think that it's when two people have sufficiently gotten to know each other and are both comfortable and happy about having sex. This is regardless of whether they have gotten married or not.

Regarding 2, I think once a week (for various reasons)

Regarding 3, I think that fantasies and fetishes that involve domination or degradation or other like things should be kept away because their addictive and I also think that they are detrimental to sex's potential in providing feelings of love and affection regarding the two individuals involved.   

Its part of our nature to have sex just as its part of our nature to eat food (although we die without food but not without sex).  Both can either be beneficial or detrimental. Godwilling you'l figure out the rights and wrongs on this issue.