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Messages - Bender

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Please re-read it by focusing attention of the past verb and then subjunctive particle and subjunctive verb. And notice that the apodosis clause of time adverb is elided.

I have absolutely no idea what you wrote here, to advanced for me, but if he does that then what is he going to see?

More than 60% of the Turkish population fully support Erdogan's brutal and violent policies...
So? Is this  a reason to burn all tukish people?

But, why then do babies or disabled people have to suffer as well? I really don't know, we would have to ask God?

There are other things that God does that I don't understand.

It's always easy to point our accusing finger towards God.

I watch the news on my big screen with a lot of food, drinks, comfort, safety, etc.
Then I see Syrian refugees, poor African babies, oppressed people, etc etc etc
The I get mad at God and shout out: "why you do this, you are supposed to be merciful"
After the shouting I turn of my big tv screen, throw away half of my food, and go to my warm bed.

This earth is under our "protection", God is not going to change anything of His universal laws, WE have to change, starting with ourselves.
And if we do not do this then...

Why do we have to slaughter animals to feed ourselves? Why do animals have to slaughter each other too?
maybe because we are created as humans and animals and not as plants or trees???

This is the classic "problem of evil". I admit this is a problem, God seems to want his creatures to suffer for some unknown reason.


red: NO!
God wants only good for us, but we humans usually want more for ourselves and mostly at costs of others and this disturbs the balance and creates evil.
What we see now is no more then a logical sum of what mankind has produced since it's existence.


This is called believing in unseen .

Salaam Parvez,

Ok but what does that mean?

In the same vein ,whenever  Quran mention "salah" then it is traditional salah and it came to us with Quran .there is no second opinion here also
This does not leave much room for a conversation...

because ,if ALLAH subhanvatala had not accepted the traditional salah  then we would guided us through another prophet as he guided us with Quran.
I know that here on this forum a lot of people do a totally different salah then yours BUT they still believe in Mohammed and in The Quran.
How does that work for them?

Its a news to me ,Ben they pray a different salah.Do they have three sujoods or two rukus or they pray 5 rakas for fajr .If your are talking about the content in the salah then you may be correct but the skeleton is the same . even in sunni they are few differences and those difference are attributed to the schools of thought (fiqh) which is man made
Not exactly sure what you understand under skeleton but looks to me that praying 3 times or 5 times a day should be classified under skeleton.

There you are ,Ben
you were praying salah and then you changed.can you answer why did you change.did you read somewhere or you got a instinct and that instinct got incorporated with a like minded group
somewhere down the line something happened
can you enlighten me with that "something"
pl answer me this is a very important question
It was a combination of instinct and research.
The traditional prayer never really made an sense to me even when I was a sunni, but I still did it as it is the second most important thing to do according to wise ones.
At some moment in my life I really had enough of the hadiths and traditions and I wanted to explore the quran myself.
I spend a lot of time searching for this traditional prayer in the quran as I could not believe that something so fundamental was not in the quran.
So my starting point was that I was wrong and the wise ones were right.
The more I began to study the quran the less remained of the traditional prayer.
At some point there was not much left over from the traditional prayer but it was still in some sense a ritual, but I had peace with it.

So I kept doing this modified ritual for some time but I knew that this was still not it and there were still many questions that I had not yet solved for myself.
Then on a rainy Friday morning when I was meditating in a cave at mount Sina an angel with 600 wings appeared in the horizon.
He said: "Stop lying to yourself" in a gentle way and he disappeared. I did not understood what he meant with that. And for a couple of days I was confused.
Then I went back to the holy cave at mount Sina, hoping to meet the angel again. Well the angel came again but this time he was not so kind anymore.
I asked what he meant last time.
Apparently that was not the most wise thing to do as he grabbed me and punched me with a mighty punch to the right side of the universe then to the left and finally back to earth.
He said: "Do you understand now?"
I nodded, not because of fear of another punishment, but because I really understood.
He gave me then a  :handshake: and then disappeared in the horizons.
Since that day I do not preform any ritual anymore and also a lot of other things changed.

I am not here to pass on the verdict regarding apostate .For me ,any one who is a monotheist is Muslim immaterial  of the book he follows and that is the message of quran .
Then why this topic and why did you ask this: "Are the quranist challenging ALLAH subhanavatal about his guidance?"

can you highlight the difference ,Ben
I like to, but it's not only 1 difference, it will really take me a lot of time to comment/highlight  on everything I disagreed with.
And I think that our understanding on this subject differs so much that  a lot of times we will probably not understand each other.


Indeed, that is how God's universe seems to work; millions of men, women and children usually suffer collectively for the mistakes of those in power.

We can of course speculate about the possible reasons for this. My opinion is that most people who enable power-hungry oppressive dictators, kings, rulers and clerics are even more guilty than those oppressive lunatics themselves. Most people who are victims, would act in a similar way if they gained such power. People who genuinely want equality, justice and peace for all are a small minority.

That is why people must collectively suffer for blindly following, enabling or supporting all the wrongdoings, violence and corruption of their rulers, clerics, ulema and other "authorities". Also, people generally worship authority, especially in Muslim countries.

It may seem unfair to us, but human beings obviously NEED suffering and pain in order to evolve culturally, socially and in all other aspects... :)


So when Erdogan gets full power and terrorizes all Turkish people and Kurds, then we should burn whole  turkey. Including the children, women, disabled and good people.
Not sure if you have any children, wife, parents, brothers, sisters but they must also burn because you all need to suffer collectively for letting Erdogan becoming a dictator.
And ofcourse you too, you are also turkish so you must also burn.


Even awful hell seems to be palatable to some people if they provided it is meant for somebody else. And then they complain about God, the Qur'an and what not.



I certainly wouldn't mind, if Saudi Arabia turned into a complete Hell...

They didn't show "mercy" to their own neighbours (and even far beyond). So let them taste some of what they have inflicted on others for many decades now - from Pakistan to Yemen.

Yes agreed, let them all burn, especially Pakistani and Saudi children, that will for sure teach them some manners :handshake:

Questions/Comments on the Quran / Re: Are Malaika angels?
« on: April 30, 2016, 06:23:44 PM »
Reminds me about the so called 72 virgins.... and that it is also claimed that most inhabitants of hell are female. So, basically, both hell and heaven are jam packed by females. Sounds like a pathetic male fantasy.

Hi bro,

No it's not a male fantasy, there is a logical explanation.

- Every soul will get what it earns. (source: quran)
- There are 73 sects and only 1 of them is going to heaven. (source: hadith)
- Reward for beating 1 sect is equal to 1 virgin (source: Bender logic)

I am very sure you can do math yourself now.


btw this only explains the abundance of females in heaven. I am still pondering on the hell, but I am very sure there is also a logical explanation which has nothing to do with male fantasies.

Quranic Divinity / Re: Who was the first Muslim?
« on: April 30, 2016, 04:00:03 PM »
Peace Bender.

I tell you brother,I rather go to eternal hell than have 72 beautiful eyed virgins.

Relaxing with them, you must be joking. How can you relax?

I cannot relax now with only one! By the way we say the same about each other!!!

If you want  you can have my other 71 as well. How does 143 of them sound to you?

Peace GL,

RED: Of course I want them, thanks bro that is very kind of you :handshake:

I am amazed at how Soloman managed according to that story of his in that other book?

Anyway brother, best of luck to you.
GOD bless you.

You were talking about how to handle them, well Solomon is there to give me some tips  :yes

If traditional salah was/is  wrong then it means ALLAH subhanvatala has not guided us because this was/is the Dua we make in every salah.
Salaam Parvez,

I hope you will take this in a good way, I just want to make clear how I think about it.

You do some ritual movements and meanwhile also ask Allah to guide you.
Every day you repeat exactly the same ritual 5 times.
So what exactly do you expect from Allah?
He will almost for sure not send you a letter/email/etc on how you should do your prayer.
So not sure what kind of guidance for your prayer you are waiting for.

Another point is that shia also have their ritual, it's totally different from you but they recite also al fatiha and thus ask for guidance, so how about them?

I did also this ritual prayer for many years, but not anymore, so for a lot of people I am 100% apostate for many reasons, while I believe with whole my heart that it is Allah who has guided me to something what is better. So what is your opinion am I guided or am I a apostate? What ever you think I really like to know the reason.

Another thing is that imho guidance from Allah has not so much to do on how one should do his prayer.

in other words if we say traditional salah is wrong then it automatically implies ALLAH subhnavtala has not guided us .
imho there is nothing wrong with the traditional prayer, you can still be guided.

is it not a challenge to ALLAH subhnavatala  to make new proposals regarding salah such as there are no rakaa,no sujud,no ruku and what so ever
If your way of pray is indeed the correct one and is obliged to be followed then I kind of agree.
But you have to prove for me that your prayer is the correct one and also prove that it's obliged for me to follow your example of prayer.
Otherwise I can use the same argument against you. Yes I have read your OP and other posts on this but I read those verses a little bit different than you I guess.

btw I never made any new proposals, maybe when I just joined the forum, but as far as I remember not recently.
I think there is not such code/ritual/whatever so that God will hear my prayer, I believe He knows my prayers/dua's/etc without any code/ritual.

Now tell me Ben,am i talking sense

Red: I understand your point of view hope, you understand mine  :handshake:

I believe Quran was revealed over a period of time, as stated by Quran e.g. 25:32, 17:106, and therefore in some order. This makes perfect sense to me. I have studied the traditional order and independent academic studies of order of revelation, and my own studies, and found they are very similar. They may not be 100% correct, but for a rough guide they are useable.


Quite surprising.
I always found it weird that according to the traditional view 1 chapter can have different time of revelation.

A couple of examples (source)
Order ↓   Sura Name   Number ↓     Type               Note
53               Yusuf                   12              Meccan        Except 1, 2, 3, 7, from Medina
9              Al-Qasas           28              Meccan        Except 52-55 from Medina and 85 from Juhfa at the time of the Hijra
34              Qaaf                   50              Meccan        Except 38, from Medina

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